Re: Doctor Who [12]

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:33 pm

No you didn't miss anything.

The general line is - The Doctor Lies.

It has never been mentioned before that one tv film, and never again. He has always otherwise presented himself and been presented as fully Gallifreyean.
Given how it appears Moffat is one of those people who cant sleep at night worrying about inconsistencies like this, I wouldn't be surprised if we finally get some sort of explanation of it.

by Mrs Figg Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:44 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:most of which are applicable to Moffat alone rather than Who in general.- Figg

There's that word you keep using again, 'most'.

There are 24 supposed Moffat things on it, out of which 12 are applicable to Who in general.
Out of the other 12, 5 are just different ways of making the same accusation- he is sexist.
And of the renaming 6 some are just reaching- such as the Doctor acts like Sherlock- this one is doubly ignorant. First if were the case it should be the other way round as Moffat Who pre-dates Moffat Sherlock. But more importantly Sherlock is one of the inspirations of the Doctors character, he has always been a bit like Sherlock Holmes. So really I should count this one in with 'applies to Who in general not Moffat'.

As to tropes all writers have tropes, its impossible not to. Look at Gaiman, anyone who knows his work could not have been overly surprised when The Doctors Wife featured a place not quite part of normal reality where we found patchwork people made of different people body parts.
And anyone who has read Gaiman will have immediately spotted the Gaiman tropes.
You don't read more and more Pratchett books because they are all different- you read them for Pratchetts tropes, they are the hook that keep you coming back to a writer.
Sure if like you you hate the writer then you wont like seeing his tropes, but if you do then they are part of the joy of his writing, just as with all other writers who have ever lived.

Now there an argument separate from that which says no matter how good the writer the show should cycle them every x amount of years because of the nature of the show.
I generally agree with that and stick with my current prediction Moffat will leave at the end of series 10 because he feels its time. And unless the BBC sack him (very unlikely) I don't see him leaving for any other reason.

most writers have tropes, the trick is not to bore people or make them too obvious. the whole reason the Moffat Bingo is funny is because those tropes are now so forced they are the opposite of fresh and interesting. the opposite of creative and anyone could now write a parody Moffat by numbers episode. lets see..............
A group of Zygons try to take over the world, one of them pretends to be the Queen, who falls in love with the Doctor and tries to get him alone in her bedroom so she can polish his crown jewels, then Clara walks in and the Doctor tells her to get out as she is too fat, no not fat, her bum is too large, but what the heck humans are all stupid and take offense at the slightest thing, so Clara stumps off in a huff only to get herself turned into a Zygon, the Doctor wonders if he has been a bitch and sets off trying to find her, then he realises he doesn't give a shit and cant be arsed to go back in time and save her. because he is a cranky Scottish arse with eyebrows.

here to help. Very Happy

by David H Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:17 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

The general line is - The Doctor Lies.

But it was the Master who kept saying the that the Doctor was half human as he shoved first Lee and then Grace in front of the Eye of Harmony because it responded to their humanity because the Doctor's mother was human. It reminded me more than a little of Spock's family history.

Is the looking into the Eye of Harmony thing done in other incarnations of Dr Who, or was this an outlier as well?

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:00 pm

You are treading in tricky ground here David- there is no official excuse, just fan theories and stuff glimpsed in spin off media.

Time Lords are psychic, so the Doctor lying that he was half human was a trick to fool the Master, who alsop believed it because the Doctor was using the Eye of Harmony to amplify the lie. The Doctor rigged the whole thing up as he was several moves ahead the whole time.
That's a fan theory.

The Eye of Harmony itself is another bugger of a thing.
Originally the Eye of Harmony was a star.
Rassilon, one of the Three Founders of the Time Lords created a 'stellar manipulator' worn like a gauntlet, hence its name the Hand of Rassilon- which Rassilon was able to use to harness the energy of a star and manipulate it.
The star was placed beneath the Citadel on Gallifrey and was the power source for the civilisation as well as for time-travel.

The original Eye was placed beneath the Citadel in the capital city of Gallifrey-

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 A_755_20150731130553.png_zpsqpgiy8vq

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 A_755_20150731130553.png_zpsqpgiy8vq

After the Time War and with Gallifrey lost the TARDIS had to stop on a natural rift in Time in Cardiff to refuel as there was no Eye to draw power from.
But by the time of the 11th Doctor and the episode Into the TARDIS we see that the Doctor has constructed a new Eye of Harmony inside his TARDIS. A massive feat equalling that of Rasilion.

Eye of Harmony built by 11 currently providing the TARDIS energy-

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 The-Eye-of-Harmony_zpsq6i05le2

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 The-Eye-of-Harmony_zpsq6i05le2

Now the Eye in the tv film seems a bit different- as it shouldn't be in the ship some have speculated its not but thats its a portal to the Eye on Gallifrey- which should be the only one in existence at that time.

Eye of Harmony onboard the TARDIS as seen in tv movie-

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 Cloister-room-3_zps7jvmvivv

Doctor Who [12] - Page 2 Cloister-room-3_zps7jvmvivv

There is also some confusion over if the Eye and the Heart of the TARDIS are connected or a different name for the same thing- but as that would be spoilers I'll leave it for you to watch (9's final episode)

by David H Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:52 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You are treading in tricky ground here David- there is no official excuse, just fan theories and stuff glimpsed in spin off media.

Time Lords are psychic, so the Doctor lying that he was half human was a trick to fool the Master, who alsop believed it because the Doctor was using the Eye of Harmony to amplify the lie. The Doctor rigged the whole thing up as he was several moves ahead the whole time.
That's a fan theory.

That only creates more inconsistencies. :facepalm:

I think I'll just enjoy it for it clearly is: a failed reboot and a stand-alone episode.

by **Orwell** Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:19 am

I seem to be missing most of the episodes, only part one of episode one in fact. But all this trope talk is disillusioning... Of course, everything is a trope in the end, so I s'pose I shouldn't fret... Very Happy

by malickfan Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:03 am

David H wrote:Watched the Eighth Doctor movie last night. Not half bad! All the tips of the hat to the Bella Lugosi / Boris Karloff era Universal Studios horror films were fun, especially leading up to Halloween.

One question: The plot hinges on the Doctor as half-human. Did I miss this? What's the story?

The 8th Doctor TV Movie is rather odd at times (There's a book, 'The Eight Doctors', which picks up immediately afterwards...the writer (Terrence Dicks-a regular writer for Classic Who) spends the opening of the book crapping on the previous story, and the 8th Doctor is almost immediately hit by another bout of amnesia, promptly forgetting most of the events of the TV Movie...needless to say Dicks wasn't a fan of the TV Movie Laughing

)

, but I thoroughly enjoyed it, and McGann is my favourite Doctor. Regarding the Half Human stuff I believe it was a holdover from a previous script (from memory the TV Movie started life as a straight reboot for the American Market, the doctor and master would be half brothers, the tardis would contain the spirit of the Doctors dead grandfather, and he would go looking for his lost timelord explorer father who had married a victorian princess on Earth...or some nonsense along those lines), the TV series has seemed content to ignore the Half Human stuff, but in the expanded media it's been touched on in 8's comic and Novel adventures, from the wiki:

During the early hours of his life, the Doctor remarked that he was half-human on his mother's side. (TV: Doctor Who) According to patriarchal psychic river jellyfish-like creatures on the planet Hyspero, he only thought he had a human mother, but was actually loomed. (PROSE: The Scarlet Empress) He later called his half-human lineage "debatable," (PROSE: Autumn Mist) before telling Chantir he had tricked the Master into believing he was half-human through the use of a Chameleon Arch. (COMIC: The Forgotten)

A major plot point of the BBC Eighth Doctor novels, was a future timewar (not that timewar, though it also ends in Gallifrey being blown up-no wonder 8 didn't want to fight in the timwar, he'd already averted a war and destroyed Gallifrey once before...) bleeding back across his timeline, it's hinted a group known as Faction Paradox:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Faction_Paradox

screw up his timeline so much that's he simultaneously, fully timelord and half human at the same time, whether that's canon or interesting is of course open to debate...I prefer the theory 'It was a stupid mistake and we should all quietly pretend it didn't happen'.

The clip of Frankenstein shown on the TV Monitor when he regenerates holds special significance, as McGann travels with Mary Shelley (Author of Frankenstein) in the audios, in their first story together, Mary's Story (one of my favorite Audios) it's revealed that in universe the Doctor was the direct inspiration for Frakenstein's Monster...

by David H Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:40 pm

Thanks Malick. It's interesting to know that there's so much more to the eighth Doctor than I'd imagined, also that they continued the Frankenstein theme (I presume McGann's Doctor continues to decorate the TARDIS in 1930's horror/gothic style then Smile

)

from memory the TV Movie started life as a straight reboot for the American Market, the doctor and master would be half brothers, the tardis would contain the spirit of the Doctors dead grandfather, and he would go looking for his lost timelord explorer father who had married a victorian princess on Earth...or some nonsense along those lines

That's actually not far of of the premise of "Kung Fu" - David Carradine's character is a Shao Lin priest and master of mysteries, seeking his half brother, an outlaw gunfighter, in the Old West and finding unexpected pieces of his story of the father he never knew.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consciously using it as a successful model, Like Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned Star Trek as Horatio Hornblower meets "Wagon Train" in the stars. I guess that's how you sometime have to pitch a show concept to get it funded... Rolling Eyes

by malickfan Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:17 pm

David H wrote:Thanks Malick. It's interesting to know that there's so much more to the eighth Doctor than I'd imagined, also that they continued the Frankenstein theme (I presume McGann's Doctor continues to decorate the TARDIS in 1930's horror/gothic style then )

Although McGann has about a hour of screentime, 8 is certainly one of the most prolific doctors, because the TV series was offscreen for 9 years he was still counted as the 'current' doctor, so has tonnes of stories in books audios etc:

http://www.eyespider.freeserve.co.uk/drwho/pm/list.html

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Theory:Timeline_-_Eighth_Doctor

(Not sure if these are complete/accurate lists-some of the books/audios contradict each other, and there isn't really an offical 'canon' for doctor who anwway)

They certainly keep the gothic theme- in the books, a colony of bats move into his tardis, (though his Tardis later 'regenerates' in

Spoiler:

) forced to take place in a bartering match for his own future corpse and a large proportion of his travels take place in 17-19th Century Europe, in the audios he's exiled to a parallel universe, caught in an endless timeloop inside a house that wants to kill him, stranded on a planet of talking jellyfish for 600 years, and six

Spoiler:

the general attitude the writers had seemed to have been 'Well he didn't have a TV series, so let's put him through as much nasty crap as we possibly can to make up for it' Laughing

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consciously using it as a successful model, Like Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned Star Trek as Horatio Hornblower meets "Wagon Train" in the stars. I guess that's how you sometime have to pitch a show concept to get it funded

Apparently Spielberg was involved with the early drafts, but rejected them for being too similar to Indiana Jones...the idea of Doctor Who remiagind as a wisecracking all american hero isn't one that sits too well with me personally Evil or Very Mad

...(no offense intended).

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:19 pm

I enjoyed that if for no other reason than it was blooming different. And the most overtly political story I've seen probably since 7 and the Happiness Patrol!

by malickfan Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:30 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: I enjoyed that if for no other reason than it was blooming different. And the most overtly political story I've seen probably since 7 and the Happiness Patrol!

I really enjoyed that episode (felt like a RTD era ep with the politics and earth invasion) but they weren't exactly subtle with the metaphors...and those UNIT soldiers were pretty thick for highly trained special forces personnel! Rolling Eyes

Depending on how the finale ends up...I think this could push Series 4 out as my favourite series of New Who Nod

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:47 pm

Had it been Torchwood the scene with soldiers would have ended differently I suspect- they'd have shot the lot and then discovered they really were hostages! You cant do that in Who- but you can kill them off-screen and reduce them to crackling steaming piles of hair and teeth. Nod

But my favourite comment I've read tonight on the episode comes from the 'What did the kids and not we think of the episode' thread on Gallifrey Base-

'My 11 year old just pretended to be a zygon duplicate as I put him to bed. Thats how dr who should be.'

by malickfan Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:57 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Had it been Torchwood the scene with soldiers would have ended differently I suspect- they'd have shot the lot and then discovered they really were hostages! You cant do that in Who- but you can kill them off-screen and reduce them to crackling steaming piles of hair and teeth.

That is true, but you wouldn't have half a dozen soldiers disobey a direct order from their officer and march into an explored Church unarmed, are we supposed to believe Kate Stewart is UNITs entire American Staff?, and I'm pretty sure that if I was surrounded by Zygons in a tunnel I'd certainly consider firing my machine gun at them! Rolling Eyes

This was written by the guy who wrote Kill the Moon, it was certainly a much better episode...but nearly as hamfisted with the symbolism...

Still not sure where this series arc is leading...

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:07 pm

his was written by the guy who wrote Kill the Moon, it was certainly a much better episode...but nearly as hamfisted with the symbolism...- Malick

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:42 pm

those UNIT soldiers were pretty thick for highly trained special forces personnel!Malick

Noone said they were highly trained- they are UNIT soldiers. I suspect there is motto is 'largely in inept since 1976, or maybe 86'

by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:43 pm

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:48 pm

Spoiler:

- Figg

Spoiler:

Damn you Figg- I should be in bed I have to get up at 6am! Mad

by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:20 pm

Spoiler:

by azriel Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:11 pm

I just watched Dr Who on BBC IPlayer & I have to say, I didnt really enjoy this one. It feels far too political, too involved in Earths politics, it should have kept to fantasy & neutrality but it didnt. As much as I really like Capaldi this Dr Who is veering away from the stories I liked.

by Mrs Figg Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:55 pm

I agree. This whole season we have only had one episode on a different planet. they have all been on Earth, and now they are going in for Earth politics, whats going on?

plus this episode felt like a mash-up of many pieces of previous episodes all bunged in together. Its like they had a check list. awful.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:22 pm

It feels far too political, too involved in Earths politics, it should have kept to fantasy & neutrality but it didnt.- Azriel

Spoiler:

'This whole season we have only had one episode on a different planet.'

We've only had three stories.
The first episode was half set in the present day earth, partly in 12th century Essex, partly in on several planets whilst Sarf went looking for the Doctor, and the entire second episode was on Skaro.
The third episode was again earth, but in the future and then in the 1980's.
Then we had Viking Norway and 17th Century England.
This one is the only contemporary earth story of the series so far.
I don't remember you complaining when RTD used to set almost whole series around the Powell Housing Estate in London, always contemporary times too.
Besides the style, art direction, and general direction of episodes have been so marked from each other that there is no sense of being it the same place all the time or seeing the same stuff over and over.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:44 pm

Press round up-

Spoiler:

by azriel Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:00 pm

To be truthful I dont want to be reminded of how fooked up the Earth is, I want escapism & I dont really feel at this moment that Im getting that with Dr Who ? In fact Im feeling depressed ? Im still waiting to be scared shitless ? Smile

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:06 pm

Oh don't worry the scares are yet to come with Gatiss story.

I certainly haven't been depressed by this series, not all, its shaping up to my favourite of Nuwho. Nod

But when Moffat did it in the form of a fairy tale, of the fantastical in the Pond era people complained and wanted it more 'serious' we get more serious- this series for all its japes us covered some deep central themes in each story- and people complain about that instead.

by azriel Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:17 pm

OOOh I knoooooooow ! You cant please everyone, its tricky dicky, but, I do like a good fart worthy scare ! Nod