Doctor Who [12]

that's no indication of anything. that's just one forum. its highly subjective.

and yes Moffat must go. One decent episode in 10 is pretty lousy.

hat's no indication of anything. that's just one forum. its highly subjective- Figg

But its not just 1 forum- this series has got good reviews all round over all- here for example are IGN's scores for the series (I picked them purely because they also give a handy 9 out of 10 rating) but its a similar story across all the major critical tv review sites, with only a few exceptions.

IGN


The Magicians Nephew- 9.4

The Witches Familar- 8.9

Under the Lake- 8.5

Before the Flood- 9

The Girl Who Died- 8.8

The Woman Who Lived- 9.2

The Zygon Invasion- 7.8

The Zygon Inversion- 7.9

Sleep No More- 8.4

Face the Raven- 8.4

Heaven Sent- 9.5

Hell Bent- 9.3

And critically Capaldi has got rave reviews.

good reviews from your subjective forums that you have picked because they are positive.

No I pick from the most popular reviews and a smattering of UK newspapers (tabloid and broadsheet).
I have been doing so all series, and the reviews have across the board been overwhelmingly positive, with negative reviews very much in the minority.
I have also noticed this is true of many youtube reviewers- including those of a previous very negative mood, including folk like Lippmanette (though she didn't like the finale).
It has also been trending on twitter after big story episodes which, I am told, is a good sign too.

I am not sure why you seem so determined to try to say that this series has not gone down generally well with folks- when all the evidence from what people have been saying has been  generally positive, from forums to critics.

no the negative reviews have been very much the majority in my experience. The numbers you posted are arbitrary numbers with no scientific evidence behind them, they are just random subjective numbers you have decided are actual representations of the majority of viewers. they are not. those numbers are meaningless and certainly not proof. Most of the reviewers I have read are on a meh to scathing scale about a lot of the episodes, even the middle of the road reviewers.

I'd like to see you see you prove that- with recognisable press names too, not internet forums only or fan pieces- but actual paid reviewers for major outlets- such as all those I have been using in the press round up- all I do after an episode is google 'Doctor Who (name of episode) review' and then go through everything that comes up- I must read 50- 100 reviews over the course of a week between episodes (and yeah I've read plenty negative, but in the minority by far, the majority have been positive loud and clear).

So please do provide your proof the series overall has been majority critically panned.
I'd love to see it.

I have as much 'proof' as you do, ie its all subjective, there is no proof on either side. you posting numbers is meaningless.

What? We are arguing over whether the show was critically well received or not- that is not subjective its simple- you go google the reviews from all the major critical outlets, you read them. If they liked it it was well received. It aint rocket science. And it ain't subjective- there are sites dedicated to gathering such information like Rotten Tomatoes (where incidentally series 9 currently sits in the high 90's I believe in fan reviews and even higher in critical ones).

it was both well received and badly received by different people or are you saying that you can give me exact proportions of the public? otherwise its better if you just be a bit more honest and qualify your stats with the proviso they are just random numbers you think look pretty.

I never mentioned the public- we are talking about criticial reception. And that was overwhelmingly positive. Out of all the reviews I read there were more positive than negative by a good margin. And I read every major press outlet for reviewing Who episodes.
All the available sources for checking such information- the reviews themselves, amalgamated averages of them, however you want to add them up- it still says the same thing-it was well received overall.
That's not my doing you know, its juts the fact of the matter.

I dont get why you'd seem to prefer if it had got bad reviews overall?

erm call me old fashioned but the public is who watches Doctor Who. saying they are critically well received by a couple of hyperventilating hyperbolic hacks is not the same thing. the % I have found seems to be vaguely 80% negative 20 % positive comments on all the various forums and reviewers comments I have read. A lot of people have stated their dislike of season 9. its certainly not positive overall in my personal experience so as I said its subjective. its best not to post stats as if they are definitive proofs something is awesome when it quite clearly isn't for a vast amount of people.

You are confusing to entirely separate things.

I showed through using the IGN scores as an example that critically it was well received- you challenged that. I have provided further proof it was critically well received, and could go on to give the review scores from a ton of major review outlets which would also show that overall the series was more positively received than negative.
Thats just how it went down with the critics in general.

The public have nothing to do with this argument- that's not to say anything on the merits of such a debate- only its not the one we are currently having, you are just trying to shift the goal posts.

The critical reviews were overall positive. Nothing changes that even if the public hated it (which I don't see any evidence of either- its lowest AI- for Sleep No More was still in the 'good' bracket of the rating system).

first off the critical reviews are not proof the season or the episodes were good. they are in themselves subjective personal opinions, so you haven't actually given me proof of diddly squat.
If you want to say however that you have found some stats from one of your pro-Moffat fansites who generally look on Moffats excrescences with uncritical fervour, then that's fair enough, go for it, we know to take the stats with a healthy pinch of salt, but giving the impression that they are definitive is highly misleading. I mean who in their right mind would give Sleep no more 9/10.

so you haven't actually given me proof of diddly squat.- Figg

Yes I have- I have given you proof it was critically well received- which was my original claim which you disputed and have since utterly and completely failed to show otherwise (for the very good reason it WAS critically well received).

As to Sleep No More- one of the things I found interesting when doing the press review for that episode is that it was, in general, better received by the critics than it was by the fans on forums and youtube- but the AI rating for it 78- low for Who is still in the good bracket- its just not in the very good or excellent bracket Who is normally in and which the rest of the series was in.

you gave me proof of some subjective personal views from a tiny cross-section from a couple of members of the pro-Moffat press. hardly fair or balanced. its still diddly squat.

No I didn't- I gave the reviews over the course of the series after each episode from all the major media outlets that review Who -p this ranged from broadsheet newspapers such as the Telegraph, the Guardian and the Independent to tabloids like the Mirror, to monthly tv magazines such as the Radio Timnes, and included the major internet review sites to such as IGN, Metacritic, Den of Geek and many others.

And I already outlined my selection process which was to google the episode and add the word review and then go through everything that comes up picking out only major outlets as the only criteria to prevent it just being blogs and user reviews.
I have not once selected based on if they liked it or not. It just so happened that overall they tended to like this series, if not every episode or every part of every episode.

That is not my doing as you seem determined to believe- its just what happened- the critics liked it overall.

The BBC are releasing a novel called the Legends of Ashildr, set between the Girl who Lived and the Woman who Died.



Also some of the final figures for some episodes to demonstrate how Who is faring in the UK against other dramas.

The majority of the weeks looked like this one (only with Who about a million lower normally as that was the premiere and so a bit higher than the average as is normal- though this is the first series of NuWho to actually have its higher figures mid-series, when the Rugby World Cup on ITV ended)- with the chart dominated by soap operas and reality tv-



With Doctor Who often not just the top drama of the week- but often the only drama to make the top 30 at all.

Exceptions to this have come when very popular other dramas have returned- such as Downton and Doc Martin -



And Who gets bumped down the list from time to time when a big reality show returns against it like I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, and because instead of giving shows with multiple episodes an average and one place in the list- they take up loads of places.





But notably Who is still the no1 drama here for the week- at it often is. And when its not the no1 drama for the week its usually in the top 3.
Consistently its the most watched UK drama in the UK.
And almost certainly, as its BBC Worldwide top selling program- the most watched UK drama worldwide.

Always worth considering it has done this against the top Saturday night shows the competitors have like Cowell vehicle X-factor or the Rugby World Cup (live sport always get big numbers over recorded Tv, especially drama).

Is the show still the ultimate zeitgeist  on UK tv as it was in the 1-5 year launch period when it was new to many?- I'd say no. And nor would I expect it to be no matter who was writing it after 10 years back- thats its still the BBC top drama, UK and global and thats its chart position has remained so consistent over that time is frankly astonishing by any tv standards.

I just don't see how there is evidence the majority hate the show when it is often the top rated drama for the week when on in the UK.

Unless of course you are arguing Figg that audience is made up almost entirely like folk such as yourself who seem to tune in to see what they can hate about the show this week!

This Ashildr is sounding a tad "Orlandoish" to me ? & I dont mean that pointy eared Princeling with the "head N shoulders" hair !

Pettytyrant101 wrote:No I didn't- I gave the reviews over the course of the series after each episode from all the major media outlets that review Who -p this ranged from broadsheet newspapers such as the Telegraph, the Guardian and the Independent to tabloids like the Mirror, to monthly tv magazines such as the Radio Timnes, and included the major internet review sites to such as IGN, Metacritic, Den of Geek and many others.

And I already outlined my selection process which was to google the episode and add the word review and then go through everything that comes up picking out only major outlets as the only criteria to prevent it just being blogs and user reviews.
I have not once selected based on if they liked it or not. It just so happened that overall they tended to like this series, if not every episode or every part of every episode.

That is not my doing as you seem determined to believe- its just what happened- the critics liked it overall.

whatevs. just don't post stats from other fan-sites which attempt to 'prove' a point because they are pointless and irritating. opinion is fair game because its subjective. I really don't see the point of posting popularity ratings like the ones above either.

This Ashildr is sounding a tad "Orlandoish" to me ?- Azriel

Are they in Interview with a Vampire? Cause there are shades of that in there too with Ashidr.

opinion is fair game because its subjective, stats are just a waste of time.- Figg

You mean you can argue with opinion but you cant with the stats? which clearly show the program doing well against its peers still and that the critics liked it.
Well I'm sorry reality does not conform to your opinion but that's why its called reality!

And I don't put the stats and reviews up just for you, but for others too who follow Who and may be interested in them as I am. Its just that for some reason you elected to pick a fight over them.

You mean you can argue with opinion but you cant with the stats? which clearly show the program doing well against its peers still and that the critics liked it.

The above statement makes no logical sense. It shows diddly squat.

I can argue with stats taken from another Doctor Who fansite. Its bizarre you can claim they in any way accurate. I am arguing with your stats, that's the whole point of my argument in the last two pages, if you hadn't noticed. maybe on planet Petty 9/10 means Sleep no more was awesome, but on my planet it was shite.

You 2 crack me up ! Its been a pissy grey,cold day but reading you two has made me laugh that much I forgot how shitty the weather is !

maybe on planet Petty 9/10 means Sleep no more was awesome, but on my planet it was shite.- Petty

Actually if you go back and see what I said at the time you find otherwise. I thought it was a worthy idea to take a risk with a format Who had never tackled before, but I think it was the poorest episode of the series in a strong series- but not Fear Her or Love and Monsters bad. I think the fan overreaction was just that an overreaction, and I think the critics reaction was too generous because of the experimental nature of it, which is the sort of thing critics often like. Its not a bad episode, its just not a good one, I'd easily rate it alongside such episode as Curse of the Black Spot, which likewise is not actually offensively bad or anything, just not great either.

And the stats for audience figures above are not from any forum, they are from BARB-

'The Broadcasters' Audience Research Board (BARB) is the organisation that compiles audience measurement and television ratings in the United Kingdom. It was created in 1981 to replace a previous systems whereby ITV ratings were compiled by JICTAR (Joint Industry Committee for Television Audience Research), whilst the BBC did their own audience research.
BARB is jointly owned by the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5, Sky and the Institute of Practitioners in Advertising.'-wiki

They are the UK TV industry standard.

Nor any of the critical reviews from a forum either- the only forum scores I have cited were those from Gallifrey Base, and I choose it because its the largest Doctor Who site in the UK.

But we have not been discussing fan or public votes. We have been discussing critical reception ot the series overall and the Audience figures from BARB. The critical reception was overall positive, and the audience figures show its one of the top 3 dramas on UK TV.
The BBC Worldwide figures show its the top selling BBC program worldwide and sold to more territories than any other program.

These are not forum facts, or fan facts. They are industry facts, and so have some weight behind them.


Azriel- We aim to please

Get a room.

Theyde be lost without each other !