Re: Doctor Who [12]

by **Amarië** Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Finished part one, everything lags like crazy so I'm letting part 2 be for now. Felt like I was watching three different actors having three monologues. Still not feeling the Clara&Doctor love, they just don't click. I liked Missy the most, I felt she was more there and knowing the rules of the game. And I liked the Doctor and Missy parts.

Spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:31 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So basically you are saying that only you have the 'facts' and you decide what the 'facts' are- Figg

No I was referring to the recent debate around facts- Ai numbers ect where opinion, mine or yours is irrelevant- they are facts.

translated. Only Petty has facts. mere mortals don't. Shocked

by Nagual Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Stuff.

Wrong.

by **Amarië** Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:36 pm

Nagual wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Stuff.
Wrong.

by Mrs Figg Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:36 pm

Nagual wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Stuff.
Wrong.

is that a fact or an opinion?

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:48 pm

Spoiler:

- Amarie

Spoiler:

by Nagual Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:51 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Nagual wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Stuff.
Wrong.

is that a fact or an opinion?

It is a fact that he is wrong.
It is a fact that it is my opinion that he is wrong
It is a fact that it is my opinion that he is in fact wrong.
it is a fact that it is my opinion that he is in fact wrong about having an opinion.

It is an opinion that he is wrong.
It is an opinion that he is in fact wrong.
It is an opinion that in fact my opinion is that he is in fact wrong.
It is an opinion that in fact my opinion is that he is wrong about having an opinion.

Either, works for me.

PS. Wrong.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:57 pm

Its worse actually talking to him you know. Mad

I should perhaps inform, well warn really incase it turns elsewhere but me, but Nagual left Crabbit University with a Masters in a very specialised field of crabbit- Sarky-bastard Crabbit.
A perilous area of crabbit requiring deft agility and exceptionally deep levels of crabbit indeed but the potential for a fall from grace, a misplaced crabbit sacrcasm, and it can all go horribly wrong.
But his skills are legendary. Sadly. Mad

by Mrs Figg Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:11 pm

Nagual wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:
Nagual wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Stuff.
Wrong.

is that a fact or an opinion?
It is a fact that he is wrong.
It is a fact that it is my opinion that he is wrong
It is a fact that it is my opinion that he is in fact wrong.
it is a fact that it is my opinion that he is in fact wrong about having an opinion.

It is an opinion that he is wrong.
It is an opinion that he is in fact wrong.
It is an opinion that in fact my opinion is that he is in fact wrong.
It is an opinion that in fact my opinion is that he is wrong about having an opinion.

Either, works for me.

PS. Wrong.

I salute you.

by azriel Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:18 pm

I like sarky crabbit Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:33 am

Be careful what you wish for!

by Forest Shepherd Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:59 am

Well jumping back to Petty's response:

The reason there seems to be a logical break between the two comments about the Bootstrap Paradox is that I first listed things I disliked and then things that I enjoyed.

I disliked that the Bootstrap Paradox wasn't used to better effect in this episode although I liked that it was in the episode. The story about Beethoven was elegant and charming, but the ghost-image that the Doctor sent forward (and how did he do this? And was that just a hologram or was that his ghost or something?) warning his future self to make his past-self send the information forward was not nearly as elegant or interesting.
Whereas in the Beethoven example it is the music itself that shapes all the events around it, in this episode the details of the Paradox are no more meaningful than, say, a telephone call to the future to warn yourself that it will rain that afternoon.
The Doctor's warning to himself is an example of the Bootstrap Paradox, but it wasn't used memorably.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:26 am

I disliked that the Bootstrap Paradox wasn't used to better effect in this episode although I liked that it was in the episode.- Forest

Ah, I see your thinking better now.

'the ghost-image that the Doctor sent forward (and how did he do this? And was that just a hologram or was that his ghost or something?) '

Spoiler:

by **Amarië** Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:42 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Spoiler:
- Amarie

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

by Eldorion Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:06 am

I love that your daughter is familiar enough with Forumshire to know our custom emoticons and even recommend ones to direct at Petty. I love you

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:07 pm

Well Doc pops back with an Dalek device to kill the creator of the Daleks, while shouting the Dalek catchphrase.- Amarie

Well going on Genesis of the Daleks the word 'exterminate' is already in use among the Kaled military by this time, so its use to Davros would probably have just made Davros think the Doctor was military of some sort.
Now the weapon is more interesting and I suspect at some point will get a follow up- its not done carelessly in the script its carefully set up- the Dalek gun the Doctor takes he takes from Davros' personal living space- and Davros tells him its an 'ancient weapon', which it would be if it were as old as Davros. The Doctor then takes it back in time with him and we last see it with him and Davros in the past. It looks very much like the same gun in a time loop.

'It's a cliffhanger that we know won't happen.'- Amarie

But its right there onscreen- it happens. scratch

'Also daughter came by and said I should add "the one with the butt", so alright then.'

Cheeky bloody bairns! Its a gud muckle boot tae the erse thur needin' Twisted Evil

by Mrs Figg Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:44 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:Well jumping back to Petty's response:

The reason there seems to be a logical break between the two comments about the Bootstrap Paradox is that I first listed things I disliked and then things that I enjoyed.

I disliked that the Bootstrap Paradox wasn't used to better effect in this episode although I liked that it was in the episode. The story about Beethoven was elegant and charming, but the ghost-image that the Doctor sent forward (and how did he do this? And was that just a hologram or was that his ghost or something?) warning his future self to make his past-self send the information forward was not nearly as elegant or interesting.
Whereas in the Beethoven example it is the music itself that shapes all the events around it, in this episode the details of the Paradox are no more meaningful than, say, a telephone call to the future to warn yourself that it will rain that afternoon.
The Doctor's warning to himself is an example of the Bootstrap Paradox, but it wasn't used memorably.

I agree.

I would argue they used the paradox to make the episode seem cleverer than it actually was.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:51 pm

You seem to be ignoring Clara being the analogy to the music.

I thought the paradox worked very well- you can watch the entire two parter and it completely makes linear sense, there is not a gap in the narrative or a plot hole- until you get to the end and stop and think about it and realise the Doctors plan has no linear source. You see how it happens without noticing any apparent gaps in logic because there aren't any, but it comes from nowhere at all and the point at which it can be realised is only at the end.
That is an elegant example of the bootstrap paradox I would say.
Over complicating it would have lost focus on the purpose of using it I think.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:45 pm

I would argue they used the paradox to make the episode seem cleverer than it actually was.- Figg

Not quite sure what you mean here- how does it make the episode seem cleverer? The paradox forms the structure and framework of the episode. Its not like an extra plot twist just thrown in there to explain something, its the entire substance of the second part.
The 'wow' makes your brain melt part relies on the entire story making complete linear sense whilst not making any sense at all- hence a paradox.
But it relies on the whole as a narrative. I think that is quite clever, as in its a clever idea for a story to based on, but I don't see how it is making the rest of the content of the episode seem cleverer when the rest is also part of the same thing. All the elements rely on each other for the paradox to work.

by Mrs Figg Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:20 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You seem to be ignoring Clara being the analogy to the music.

Is this your theory? or is it official.

I thought the paradox worked very well- you can watch the entire two parter and it completely makes linear sense, there is not a gap in the narrative or a plot hole- until you get to the end and stop and think about it and realise the Doctors plan has no linear source. You see how it happens without noticing any apparent gaps in logic because there aren't any, but it comes from nowhere at all and the point at which it can be realised is only at the end.
That is an elegant example of the bootstrap paradox I would say.
Over complicating it would have lost focus on the purpose of using it I think.

Obfuscation at its finest.

by Mrs Figg Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:27 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I would argue they used the paradox to make the episode seem cleverer than it actually was.- Figg

Not quite sure what you mean here- how does it make the episode seem cleverer? The paradox forms the structure and framework of the episode. Its not like an extra plot twist just thrown in there to explain something, its the entire substance of the second part.
The 'wow' makes your brain melt part relies on the entire story making complete linear sense whilst not making any sense at all- hence a paradox.
But it relies on the whole as a narrative. I think that is quite clever, as in its a clever idea for a story to based on, but I don't see how it is making the rest of the content of the episode seem cleverer when the rest is also part of the same thing. All the elements rely on each other for the paradox to work.

They use the paradox as a plot device to make the episode seem cleverer than it actually is. its simple to understand. They give an interesting example in the intro but don't follow through with an interesting example in the episode. Its all smoke and no knickers. its certainly not a 'wow'. The idea of basing the story on the paradox is clever, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. it was underwhelming and a bit superficial.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:19 pm

Is this your theory? or is it official.- Figg

Well its fairly obvious I thought- there is an entire scene dedicated to the not very hidden subtext of what the Doctor will do not to lose Clara. The Doctor even says that had her name not been next on the list he would not have acted, it was that knowledge which forced his hand. Everything he does in the past is spurred by the need to keep Clara safe and alive. And its been a running theme of the entire series.

'They use the paradox as a plot device to make the episode seem cleverer'

This is the bit I don't get. Its not a plot device, its the plot. The plot is a bootstrap paradox. No paradox no plot, no plot no paradox. Its not a device, its not a writing technique its the form of the thing.
Its either a clever idea to do or not. But its not serving a purpose for the rest of the script, the rest of the script by need supports it.

by Mrs Figg Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:14 pm

''Well its fairly obvious I thought- there is an entire scene dedicated to the not very hidden subtext of what the Doctor will do not to lose Clara. The Doctor even says that had her name not been next on the list he would not have acted, it was that knowledge which forced his hand. Everything he does in the past is spurred by the need to keep Clara safe and alive. And its been a running theme of the entire series''

I don't think so. scratch

you could argue he has been trying to keep his companions safe and alive since 2005.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:57 pm

Yes but they don't deliberately keep highlighting it in dialogue and character and camera shots- which they have been clearly and deliberately doing so in every story-

Spoiler:

And so it goes on, up to and including th elatest epiosde the Zygon Inversion-they have been deliberately highlighting 12 and Clara and his sense of imminent loss, its been playing on his mind- and above are just a few form the opening episodes of the bigger stuff- there is lots more subtle stuff, single lines, looks the camera deliberately focuses on at key or poignant or meaningful moments relevant to this theme. Its the very definition of an underlying running theme.

by halfwise Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:25 pm

"It's all smoke and no knickers."

Laughing