Re: Game of Thrones [2]

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:39 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:finished season 2. its brilliant. I noticed the death of Stannis's family was pre-figured quite heavily. Melisandre told him that he would betray his family one day and that it would be worth it to get to the throne. so that's way I wasn't shocked by the death of his daughter, it seemed like it had been a long time coming, at least from early in S2. and that's why I don't get the complaints about S5.
I don't get how that justifies anything!
Just because one of my least-favourite characters, Meli-burnahoe-sandre said some stupid crap to Stannis several seasons ago does not make anything about the burning of Shireen less horrifyingly stupid and terrible. Shireen was a minor character, basically a bloody afterthought to the show, for most of its run anyway! She barely shows up, and even then only so Davos can have someone to talk to in his scenes. And we barely ever see Shireen and Stannis together until the calculated bullshit scene that preluded her burning by a few episodes.

Mrs Figg wrote:Annoying as Brienne is, I think she's the only one who keeps her word.
Fat lot of good it does anyone! The fact that she "keeps her word" is actually a large part of what makes her annoying.

Forest Forest Forest!

Meli-burnahoe-sandre Laughing

I agree it was horrifying and I think it was totally in character. Stannis was very much like Theon in season 2, he had gone too far down the road to turn back or wimp out. Theon murdered 2 kids just so he would look cool in front of his men, how is that worse than Stannis murdering his daughter because he was obsessed with power? the end result is the same.

I don't find Brienne at all annoying, she is pig headed and gruff, not a stereotypical woman, a bit like Yara, plain and yet far more sympathetic than a thousand perfect beautiful Tauriel kick ass babes.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:58 pm

Finished watching S5. I don't think it's possible for me to be more disappointed. And I thought book 5 was disappointing.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:07 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Forest Shepherd wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:finished season 2. its brilliant. I noticed the death of Stannis's family was pre-figured quite heavily. Melisandre told him that he would betray his family one day and that it would be worth it to get to the throne. so that's way I wasn't shocked by the death of his daughter, it seemed like it had been a long time coming, at least from early in S2. and that's why I don't get the complaints about S5.
I don't get how that justifies anything!
Just because one of my least-favourite characters, Meli-burnahoe-sandre said some stupid crap to Stannis several seasons ago does not make anything about the burning of Shireen less horrifyingly stupid and terrible. Shireen was a minor character, basically a bloody afterthought to the show, for most of its run anyway! She barely shows up, and even then only so Davos can have someone to talk to in his scenes. And we barely ever see Shireen and Stannis together until the calculated bullshit scene that preluded her burning by a few episodes.

Mrs Figg wrote:Annoying as Brienne is, I think she's the only one who keeps her word.
Fat lot of good it does anyone! The fact that she "keeps her word" is actually a large part of what makes her annoying.

Forest Forest Forest!

Meli-burnahoe-sandre I agree it was horrifying and I think it was totally in character. Stannis was very much like Theon in season 2, he had gone too far down the road to turn back or wimp out. Theon murdered 2 kids just so he would look cool in front of his men, how is that worse than Stannis murdering his daughter because he was obsessed with power? the end result is the same.

This is a straw man argument. Nobody said anything about Theon or anything about whether his crimes were worse or not Theon has nothing to do with Stannis killing immolating Shirreen, his own daughter, and whether it was worse than the killing of 2 farm boys has any bearing on the mere idea of killing off Shireen from a storytelling perspective.

And I would disagree that it's in character as it doesn't even follow the source material. To add insult to injury all the scenes viewers had to endure with Stannis probably now amount to nothing (a running theme of this show), since he's probably dead.

Probably the worst season finale in history.

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:38 pm

''This is a straw man argument. Nobody said anything about Theon or anything about whether his crimes were worse or not Theon has nothing to do with Stannis killing immolating Shirreen, his own daughter, and whether it was worse than the killing of 2 farm boys has any bearing on the mere idea of killing off Shireen from a storytelling perspective.'' Radaghast.

I know its got no direct bearing, I was merely comparing the two season, Theon and Stannis because people use the murder of Shireen 'it not being in the book' as a criticism. ie, Its not unheard of a character to do something horrible in the name of egoism that they wouldn't have dreamed of doing at the beginning.

''It's not whether he fears them or not, it's that he's an untrustworthy dick. He laments no longer having Tywin's support, but he can easily curry favor Cersei's favor with Sansa in his custody. He can hardly be trusted with the safety of Sansa and there's no logical way she can now remain hidden from Cersei in any case. Whatever the deal is, Littlefinger's plan is beyond nutty, just leaving Sansa to the tender mercies of Roose Bolton, bane of her very brother. And it's also uncharacteristic for the meticulous LF to put her into the hands of what, to him, is an unknown quantity in Ramsay Snow.'' Radaghast

Its perfectly obvious whats happening. Roose Bolton and his horribler son are snobs as is LF. They both crave the aristocratic purity of the Starks and Lannisters, the Boltons want power but they also want legitimation by marriage to a nobler house than theirs. they have the flayed man as a sigil because they can only rule with terror, not loyalty or love as the Starks do, or by royal hauteur as the Lannisters do. they are a little grubbing poor lot, Sansa Stark represents nobility and legitimating, they aint going to kill her, she is too valuable and LF knows this. he is like the Boltons in that he is a nouveau riche upstart with no nobility. that's what they want. revenge.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:19 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I know its got no direct bearing, I was merely comparing the two season, Theon and Stannis because people use the murder of Shireen 'it not being in the book' as a criticism. ie, Its not unheard of a character to do something horrible in the name of egoism that they wouldn't have dreamed of doing at the beginning.

It's a valid criticism. Stannis clearly has a role in the book (and a preview chapter of book 6 further hints at this) but the show's writers have no clue what to do with him, so they have him do an unforgivable thing, such that viewers want him dead. But it ends up being a huge waste of screen time. It leaves Davos as the only character from this arc to care about, but he has no power and is missing digits on his fingers.

Its perfectly obvious whats happening. Roose Bolton and his horribler son are snobs as is LF. They both crave the aristocratic purity of the Starks and Lannisters, the Boltons want power but they also want legitimation by marriage to a nobler house than theirs. they have the flayed man as a sigil because they can only rule with terror, not loyalty or love as the Starks do, or by royal hauteur as the Lannisters do. they are a little grubbing poor lot, Sansa Stark represents nobility and legitimating, they aint going to kill her, she is too valuable and LF knows this. he is like the Boltons in that he is a nouveau riche upstart with no nobility. that's what they want. revenge.

Okay, so it makes LF an irredeemable shit whereas the book character showed some charisma and some genuine concern for Sansa's well-being. But the plan still sucks because LF doesn't give Sansa any ideas on what to do to get her revenge, doesn't know kind of shit she might be in for, and he doesn't know that Sansa won't just kill herself (which is apparently what she at least risked doing with Theon). They're expediting the storyline (or trying to, poorly imo) at the cost of characterization. And, of course, his plan went to shit anyway because the Boltons are just as strong as they were before Stannis attempted to besiege them. Honestly, I don't know what I'm expected to think, but it's all starting to look like shit.

by Forest Shepherd Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:02 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Forest Shepherd wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:Annoying as Brienne is, I think she's the only one who keeps her word.
Fat lot of good it does anyone! The fact that she "keeps her word" is actually a large part of what makes her annoying.

Forest Forest Forest!

Meli-burnahoe-sandre I agree it was horrifying and I think it was totally in character. Stannis was very much like Theon in season 2, he had gone too far down the road to turn back or wimp out. Theon murdered 2 kids just so he would look cool in front of his men, how is that worse than Stannis murdering his daughter because he was obsessed with power? the end result is the same.

I don't find Brienne at all annoying, she is pig headed and gruff, not a stereotypical woman, a bit like Yara, plain and yet far more sympathetic than a thousand perfect beautiful Tauriel kick ass babes.

First of all, I liked that description of the Boltons that you put up beneath this last post. Nicely worded and apt comparison to the other Westeros families!

Now, I don't know if you are familiar with the show Breaking Bad, but it is pretty much a perfectly told story of one man's decline into the worst possible version of himself. It is a delight to watch and a delight to discuss.

Now, let us contrast that story with the story of Stannis' decline into the worst possible version of himself. I know you may not have seen BB yet, so let it suffice to say that the main difference is that at the end of BB we are left with a satisfied sense of epic storytelling. When Stannis gets his head chopped off by Brienne the Blowhard*, it follows the crappiest series of events in the show since the Hound was killed. It is not satisfying to watch this tripe because, unlike Breaking Bad, we don't understand what is going on. It is a bother to watch and a crabbit-pie to discuss.

Events do not follow one another logically! In one scene a little bit of blood is enough to kill off two whole damn kings. In another an entire child must be burned to get the minor result of the weather changing. In one scene the king affirms his love and devotion to this daughter. In the next he stands by with dead eyes, restraining his wife like a haggard specter of apathy and watching his offspring wither away in the flames. First we hear that family is important, than we learn that family is disposable.
We thought that there was continuity in this quest for the kingship, but then we learn that really it all bucks and heaves at the whims of the fatuous show-runners as they wave their hands over the puppet-figures below and death after death invalidates our hopes and fears. Radaghast is right, what was the point of all those season's of Stannis' stupid shite if we end up with nothing left of his plot? This is the work of a fool. Like the potter who painstakingly crafts a glazed bowl only to break it apart with a hammer as soon as he is done to find out how strong it is.

Edit:
*I used to really like Brienne back when she was paired with Jaime. That was a part of the book that I really enjoyed because in it we saw Jaime begin to become a better person thanks to her presence and his own physical downfall. Or at least that's what I remember it as after having seen the show version. Anyway, after she killed the Hound in one of my favourite fight scenes from the show, she has become rather lame in my eyes. Traipsing about with Podrick the Player while accomplishing nothing but padding out show run-time.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:04 pm

That's the story of this series after season 3: arcs that go nowhere. People like to say S4 was great but, while it did have its moments, it also had moments that just sag and scenes that do nothing. For instance Theon's sister (whatever her name is) attempting to rescue him from Ramsay accomplished precisely nothing. Now that I look back at it, I wonder if the character could—or should—not have been done away with completely in favor of actual story.

Anyway, other things that irritated me about S5:

No Lady Stoneheart. Why not? The show loses scads of points for this alone.
Ellaria Sands and the Sand Vipers or whoever those idiots are. The more I think about these characters, the more idiotic they seem. Their presence here makes the equivalent in Dances with Dragons seem like a well-written masterpiece. I actually feel nostalgic for the book now.
Myrcella "Baratheon". I'm sorry. Am I supposed to feel bad that she died? Because I don't. And the show's clumsy attempt to present her as a fully fleshed out character is pretty laughable.
Undead. Are there two kinds of undead? Those that can be killed with regular weapons and those that need to be killed with dragon glass? If so, I missed the part where this was explained. Can someone clarify this?
Speaking of dragon glass, sure, just carry a bunch of it around in a sack, instead of, oh, I dunno, do something useful with it, like make arrows and spears. Unbelievable.
How stupid are we expected to believe Jon Snow is that he would fall for such an obvious ruse without any sense of suspicion or caution at all. Or how stupid do the writers think their audience is?
The last Dany scene in the season finale. Another example where I couldn't have begun to imagine being worse than what the book did (and, again, making me actually nostalgic for the book). Honestly, I'm flabbergasted.

I'm sure there are lots more that aren't occurring to me at the moment.

Edit:
*I used to really like Brienne back when she was paired with Jaime. That was a part of the book that I really enjoyed because in it we saw Jaime begin to become a better person thanks to her presence and his own physical downfall. Or at least that's what I remember it as after having seen the show version. Anyway, after she killed the Hound in one of my favourite fight scenes from the show, she has become rather lame in my eyes. Traipsing about with Podrick the Player while accomplishing nothing but padding out show run-time.

I feel the same way, though I don't like that she killed the Hound. I felt that that's when she really started to become irritating, like a boil on the ass.

Re: the Hound, I don't think he dies in the book. Metaphysically speaking, while the Hound may have died, I think Sandor Clegane did not. And there is really, not very oblique passage in A Feast for Crows strongly suggesting this is the case. It's too bad the show's writers decided not to find a way to convey this thread (or theory, if it is that) and just flat-out wrote him out of the series. I quite liked the character. However, since I don't intend to continue watching GoT, I suppose it doesn't matter. I hope I'm right about the books.

BTW, great show Breaking Bad. If GoT was half as good, I might actually be pleased.

by Eldorion Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:14 pm

I don't have time to do more than skim through the last couple pages but I agreed with much of what you said in your conclusion post, Radaghast.

RE: Shireen, I liked her as much as everyone else, but what annoyed me about her death scene wasn't so much the fact that it happened as the chain of events that lead to it being so fucking stupid. But I've said my piece on this before.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Eldorion wrote:I don't have time to do more than skim through the last couple pages but I agreed with much of what you said in your conclusion post, Radaghast.

RE: Shireen, I liked her as much as everyone else, but what annoyed me about her death scene wasn't so much the fact that it happened as the chain of events that lead to it being so fucking stupid. But I've said my piece on this before.

Was it in this thread? I'd be interested to read it.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:35 pm

Lancebloke wrote:There have been a few moments this season that have made me raise an eyebrow. And these are nothing to do with the books:

- The prison scene with the sandsnake getting her tits out. They were very nice tits however the whole scene seemed to serve no purpose other than to show some tits.

Yeah, and to set up a "thing" between Bronn and that tit-flashing idiot (whatever her name is; I don't care enough to look it up). It's another pointless romance, just like the one between Melisande and Grey Worm. Does anyone actually give a shit?

- Jorah seems to have infected Dany with greyscale.

LOL. I noticed that too. Maybe it's not infectious until after you become a "stone man." But it could just be the writers just don't give a toss.[/quote]

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:43 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:
Forest Shepherd wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:Annoying as Brienne is, I think she's the only one who keeps her word.
Fat lot of good it does anyone! The fact that she "keeps her word" is actually a large part of what makes her annoying.

Forest Forest Forest!

Meli-burnahoe-sandre I agree it was horrifying and I think it was totally in character. Stannis was very much like Theon in season 2, he had gone too far down the road to turn back or wimp out. Theon murdered 2 kids just so he would look cool in front of his men, how is that worse than Stannis murdering his daughter because he was obsessed with power? the end result is the same.

I don't find Brienne at all annoying, she is pig headed and gruff, not a stereotypical woman, a bit like Yara, plain and yet far more sympathetic than a thousand perfect beautiful Tauriel kick ass babes.
First of all, I liked that description of the Boltons that you put up beneath this last post. Nicely worded and apt comparison to the other Westeros families!

thanks

Now, I don't know if you are familiar with the show Breaking Bad, but it is pretty much a perfectly told story of one man's decline into the worst possible version of himself. It is a delight to watch and a delight to discuss.

Now, let us contrast that story with the story of Stannis' decline into the worst possible version of himself. I know you may not have seen BB yet, so let it suffice to say that the main difference is that at the end of BB we are left with a satisfied sense of epic storytelling. When Stannis gets his head chopped off by Brienne the Blowhard*, it follows the crappiest series of events in the show since the Hound was killed. It is not satisfying to watch this tripe because, unlike Breaking Bad, we don't understand what is going on. It is a bother to watch and a crabbit-pie to discuss.

I get what you are saying even without having seen BB, satisfying endings are lovely, but that's not Martins modus operandi is it? he likes killing off the good guys, having ambiguous things happen, but what is happening surely is the stakes were getting to the highest point of no return, Meli-scorching-knickers has been labouring under the mistaken assumption that Stannis is the Man, she has in her arrogance believed her own hype, and gets Stannis and his whole family and people wiped out. Its either pathos or something pathetic. Its not satisfying to watch, but its realistic.

Events do not follow one another logically! In one scene a little bit of blood is enough to kill off two whole damn kings. In another an entire child must be burned to get the minor result of the weather changing. In one scene the king affirms his love and devotion to this daughter. In the next he stands by with dead eyes, restraining his wife like a haggard specter of apathy and watching his offspring wither away in the flames. First we hear that family is important, than we learn that family is disposable.
We thought that there was continuity in this quest for the kingship, but then we learn that really it all bucks and heaves at the whims of the fatuous show-runners as they wave their hands over the puppet-figures below and death after death invalidates our hopes and fears. Radaghast is right, what was the point of all those season's of Stannis' stupid shite if we end up with nothing left of his plot? This is the work of a fool. Like the potter who painstakingly crafts a glazed bowl only to break it apart with a hammer as soon as he is done to find out how strong it is.

I guess it depends if you are invested in Stannis as a person, I thought he was a shit from day one. He killed his own brother for power don't forget. its only a small step to killing his daughter. as I said before he was too far down that path to turn back.

Edit:
*I used to really like Brienne back when she was paired with Jaime. That was a part of the book that I really enjoyed because in it we saw Jaime begin to become a better person thanks to her presence and his own physical downfall. Or at least that's what I remember it as after having seen the show version. Anyway, after she killed the Hound in one of my favourite fight scenes from the show, she has become rather lame in my eyes. Traipsing about with Podrick the Player while accomplishing nothing but padding out show run-time.

yeah Jaime Brienne roadtrip was great fun.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:45 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Eh...the Arya scenes were the only really good ones.

Except for her rapid removal of faces from that corpse, whoever that was. What is this, Scooby-Doo?

Are books four and five really this bad?[/spoiler]

Not nearly.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:46 pm

Bluebottle wrote:http://www.salon.com/2015/06/14/stop_defending_game_of_thrones_how_hbo_gutted_the_stories_i_love/

Wow.

Before I even read that, it looks like an article I will heartily agree with Very Happy

by Mrs Figg Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:50 pm

nobody liked the Sandsnakes. they were shit.

by Radaghast Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:56 pm

I'm glad we can agree on one thing anyway, Very Happy

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:00 am

Oh, another thing that irritated me. When Dany flies off on Dorgon, the Sons of the Harpy had not yet been defeated. Heck, they were throwing spears into the dragon (who was, inexplicably, not retaliating*). There were still such a number of them that it didn't look like Drogon made that much of a dent. Yet, when we cut back to Mereen, everybody's okay.

*Seriously, is this like D&D where a dragon has to wait 1d4 rounds to be able to use its breath weapon again? Why not just light up the lot of them?

Thinking about this show is not starting to make my head hurt.

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:04 am

Bluebottle wrote:God, that was.. appalling is to kind a word.

I'm not even sure what to say.. the writing?!... Dorne.. "... bad pussy." might be the singularily worst piece of writing, directing and acting I've seen in a long time. I have no idea what they could have liked about the storyline. Let's kill the Queens daughter just when we've sent of the heir of Dorne to Kings Landing effectively as a hostage. For the watch became a power grab by Alliser Thorne. Shame Jon only told Sam about what happened at Hardhome or the army of the dead, if he had told everyone his brothers might have had some understanding for him and his actions. And of course Jons last words are Olly, the most important character at the wall, remember, not Ghost, who only does rape protection now it seems. Winterfell.. the less said the better. Sansa and Theon jumping from the same height that just killed Myranda.. Of course there is going to be a huge snowdrift or something. It's not like all the snow is melting.. And I guess it's pretty much comfirmed now that in their heads this is Ramsays storyline. God, I really missed his point of view chapters in the books.. Meereen is going to be run by thee foreigners.. that is going to go great. But at least we had Varys to remind us how wonderful Tyrion is.. again. Oh, where did he come from? He just snuck behind the backs of all those Unsullied that was guarding Tyrion. The Unsullied? You know hte ones who are the most easily defeatable in the world, easily being mowed down by untrained former slavers with short knives, or the worlds best infantry, able to easily subdue a rioting city, depending on the needs of the plot. Daenerys, who now magically is wearing pants and comfortable looking shoes for walking, decides to leave Drogon and walk back to Meereen because she needs to get there NOW, GOD DAMN IT. Good thing that Khalesar knew who she was, seeing as they all decided to do this well coreographed riding in a huge circle around her thing.

I'm not sure I can forgive them for what they did to Stannis. It's been pretty clear that they've hated his character for a while, and used their view of him to shape the writing of his character. But it's on ething to set him up as the villain of the piece. He could have been a great villain of the piece, even if making him that looses the very greyness George is trying to insdtill in the stroy. But this was just a study in humiliation. You burn your daugther for no reason, oh, suddenly it's a bit warmer it was totally worth it. Then his men abandons him, his wife hangs herself, Mellisandre abandons him, on the last horse in the camp, who the people who took all the horses, for the second week runing, fortunately left her,.. because...? But good thing they had one of the great military commanders of Westeros on hand to order a rag tag march on a castle. Scouts? What are scouts? And then he's apparently executed on the authority of a dead younger brother who usurped his rightful place on the throne. Character assasination: Completed.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'll bother with next season. If people who have shared my misgivings about this one says it's a return to form, maybe I'll give it another chance. As things stand it's lost most of the appeal I ever saw in it. And the building blocks were there for something special, even in as much (often unfairly) maligned books as aFfCs and aDwDs. Winds of Winter can't be that far off. I'll rather look forward to that.

Your thoughts on this season are uncannily close to mine Very Happy

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:06 am

Lancebloke wrote:Sansa... I must have missed where she got that thing from because she hadn't tried leaving before. Again... convenient that Reek and the chick happened to be there to run in to!!

It was a corkscrew that she picked up when Ramsay called her to show her the flayed old woman. Who knew you could open a door with a corkscrew?

by Mrs Figg Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:09 am

I don't think we were really meant to think too much about it. Just enjoy high quality dragons and boobies and such. I do. only not the boobies. more the swashbuckling and swag. Very Happy

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:21 am

I like good storytelling. The rest is just icing, but only if the storytelling is good. Otherwise, it's just fluff.

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:38 am

bungobaggins wrote:Ned Stark confirmed for season 6.

Flashback scenes, perhaps?

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:49 am

Bluebottle wrote:http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/post/121639668347/chrys-watches-got-season-5-finale

The Stannis thing is hilarious.

Spoiler:

by Radaghast Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:56 am

bungobaggins wrote:

by Forest Shepherd Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:57 am

Radaghast wrote:I like good storytelling. The rest is just icing, but only if the storytelling is good. Otherwise, it's just fluff.

But boobies! Who can resist! :brows:

by Eldorion Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:40 am

Radaghast wrote:Was it in this thread? I'd be interested to read it.

I had to go digging back through the old threads to find the post I had in mind. Turns out it was actually written in response to Sansa's rape scene, not Shireen's sacrifice scene, but IIRC it's the fullest version of my thoughts on the show's handling of sex and violence as well as the whole "you're only criticizing it because it's different from the book" thing.

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t958p735-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-2#172703

In terms of Shireen's sacrifice, the biggest issues are the inconsistent powers of King's blood (why were leeches good enough before, and also why does no one point out that the king-killing curse has only completed 2/3 so far?), Stannis' inconsistent characterization (they give him happy cuddly scenes with Shireen for no reason but to set up the gut punch), the absurdity of Stannis' entire baggage train and all of his siege weapons being destroyed at once (with the "20 good men" thing just the shit cherry on top), and Stannis -- who is famous for surviving a siege by eating the glue out of book bindings -- resorting to burning his daughter after only a couple hours or whatever.