Re: Doctor Who [10]

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:39 pm

er Rose gets trapped in an alternate universe, then goes to work for Torchwood. She fights for a better world. She not only finds value in her normal life without the Doctor she becomes a much braver better person. According to you it would have better if she had just accepted being a non entity with chips. That denies the whole premis of Doctor Who and denies the character any growth, agency, or moral rectitude. According to you Doctor Who characters should just forget being better people with better lives and put up with mundanity. I doubt that is the aspirational message the tv programme has being trying to give these past 50 years.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:45 pm

First thing- for all Rose's words she doesn't actually do any of that.

What does she do after she leaves the Doctor?

Well she has a life in a parallel universe with her dead father restored, her mother there, a cooler version of Mickey and she has a human Doctor to grow old with- does she do any of the things in her speech?- no she keeps trying to get back to the 'real' Doctor, apparently abandoning her human one and leaving him behind, she never even mentions him again, and selfishly keeps trying to be involved in the Doctor's life and when she does find him again she is all over him like a rash- guess she is treating human Doctor just as badly as she did Mickey.

Amy and Rory after they leave, despite being sent back in time- adopt a war orphan, raise a family, Amy writes for children and Rory heals the sick. In other words they do good but in a real life scenario- not some sort of superhero scenario with a giant gun no one can relate to- but real life.

Rose was self centered and selfish as the companion, she remains self centered and selfish even after she has stopped being the companion- she ruins Martha's time as companion by hanging about like a bad smell to the point where Martha feels she has no choice but to leave, and she overshadows the end of Donna's run by turning back up again to steal the limelight.

As to the conversation you put up - I assume the bits you highlight in bold are what you have an issue with, though I am not sure because I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Everyone bar the Doctor thinks he is about to die for the sake of all creation, River has sent out a message asking for help and there are so many voices replying to say if they can help him they will because he has touched and affected so many, that she sums it up as "the universe doesn't agree" (with his apparent decision to give up)- and River thinks also there is no other way to save him, so she did not want him to die without first understanding how much he means to people throughout the universe, and her self included- whats wrong with that? Its a rather nice sentiment if you ask me.

'Shut up!...and by no one more than me. '

She tells him to shut up because he is trying to get her to just let him go die- it shows her passion, and how much she cares for him that she snaps- you only get angry with people you care for, and she isn't afraid to tell him to shut up when she thinks he needs to. And her confession of how much she loves him- well given they get married you'd kind of expect love to feature wouldn't you?

AMY: We got married and had a kid and that's her.
RORY: Okay.

Time is dying, the universe is ending, there are mere moments to go- and Rory has no memory of the 'real universe' or of who River is- there isnt time for an explanation, and in a few seconds if all goes right the real world will be restored and this version of Rory wouldn't exist anyway, he will return to proper Rory and know whats going on.
Or do you expect the episode to stop for five minutes while Amy fills in Rory on their entire past together- all of which the viewer has seen? That would be great writing that would.

'As you're told.'

What he is telling her to do is what she wants to do. Marry him. Its not like he is telling her to do something against her will or that she doesn't want.

RORY: I consent and gladly give.
DOCTOR: Need you to say it too, mother of the bride.
AMY: I consent and gladly give.

Thats the Gallifryean wedding ceremony- human wedding ceremonies have things about duty and stuff in them, Gallifreyean weddings have this (at least the short version) is the formal aspects of a wedding. For it to be a proper Time Lord wedding he needs the consent of the parents. Whats wrong with that? Its no different from the human tradition of the man asking the brides parents for permission to marry her.

'You're the woman who married me. And wife'

I have no idea what you are objecting to here. Its simply a statement of fact. Its also merely capping along running question- is River the woman who kills or marries the Doctor? As that has been a mystery for some time as it was an event form the Doctors future- now we know which- and the Doctor here confirms it- she is the woman who marries him. So that line deliberately ties in to and caps off a long running story thread.

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:55 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:First thing- for all Rose's words she doesn't actually do any of that.

What does she do after she leaves the Doctor?

firstly she doesn't leave the Doctor, she sacrifices herself trying to save the world and ends up in an alternate universe against her will.

Well she has a life in a parallel universe with her dead father restored, her mother there, a cooler version of Mickey and she has a human Doctor to grow old with- does she do any of the things in her speech?- no she keeps trying to get back to the 'real' Doctor, apparently abandoning her human one and leaving him behind, she never even mentions him again, and selfishly keeps trying to be involved in the Doctor's life and when she does find him again she is all over him like a rash- guess she is treating human Doctor just as badly as she did Mickey.

No she tries to help him saving the world again with the other ex-companions like Donna, Martha and Sarah Jane. there is absolutely no proof she abandons the other Doctor.

Amy and Rory after they leave, despite being sent back in time- adopt a war orphan, raise a family, Amy writes for children and Rory heals the sick. In other words they do good but in a real life scenario- not some sort of superhero scenario with a giant gun no one can relate to- but real life.

They have no choice in the matter, they are stuck in the 20s against their will. When Smiths Doctor is involved there are only bad consequences of being his companion, they don't fight with Torchwood or Unit, they don't carry on the fight against evil, all they do is sink into mundanity as though nothing has happened, and in an age which Amy could only be a housewife. Writing for children sounds like a sop. a cop out. they have been terribly used and then discarded. The Doctor cant even be bothered meeting them again..

Rose was self centered and selfish as the companion, she remains self centered and selfish even after she has stopped being the companion- she ruins Martha's time as companion by hanging about like a bad smell to the point where Martha feels she has no choice but to leave, and she overshadows the end of Donna's run by turning back up again to steal the limelight.

this is just twisting things for your own agenda, based on no evidence and everything about your prejudice against this character.

As to the conversation you put up - I assume the bits you highlight in bold are what you have an issue with, though I am not sure because I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Everyone bar the Doctor thinks he is about to die for the sake of all creation, River has sent out a message asking for help and there are so many voices replying to say if they can help him they will because he has touched and affected so many, that she sums it up as "the universe doesn't agree" (with his apparent decision to give up)- and River thinks also there is no other way to save him, so she did not want him to die without first understanding how much he means to people throughout the universe, and her self included- whats wrong with that? Its a rather nice sentiment if you ask me.

he is being set up once again as little tin pot god. I don't think there really should be these so called 'voices' in the universe, the Doctor should go about his work quietly not bombasting and putting his name in lights. mostly the Doctor just gets on with it and doesn't ask for praise or recognition, but Smiths Doctor is set up as hero of heros, adored by all, I don't think he was adored by all, I think the beauty of Tennants run is that he was invisible to most people, nobody had heard his name, he was a Dunedain invisible and selfless. Smiths Doctor demands attention and his stupid wifey demands attention for him, she gushes and fawns over him at every opportunity and makes him a thoroughly unlikeable character. like a stroppy toddler.

'Shut up!...and by no one more than me. '

She tells him to shut up because he is trying to get her to just let him go die- it shows her passion, and how much she cares for him that she snaps- you only get angry with people you care for, and she isn't afraid to tell him to shut up when she thinks he needs to. And her confession of how much she loves him- well given they get married you'd kind of expect love to feature wouldn't you?

nah it shows that Moffat cant write dialogue for women without making them look stroppy and fake feisty. its lazy. and unpleasant, it makes her look like a fishwife

AMY: We got married and had a kid and that's her.
RORY: Okay.

Time is dying, the universe is ending, there are mere moments to go- and Rory has no memory of the 'real universe' or of who River is- there isnt time for an explanation, and in a few seconds if all goes right the real world will be restored and this version of Rory wouldn't exist anyway, he will return to proper Rory and know whats going on.

does Rory have to sound like he is retarded? do they have to be flippant about the tragedy of their lives? because losing a kid for a woman is a tragedy. people just don't talk like that. its cheap soulless tripe..

Or do you expect the episode to stop for five minutes while Amy fills in Rory on their entire past together- all of which the viewer has seen? That would be great writing that would.

'As you're told.'

What he is telling her to do is what she wants to do. Marry him. Its not like he is telling her to do something against her will or that she doesn't want.

she is just a fangirl after all. If he had tried that crap with Donna she would have treated him with the contempt those words deserve.marry him is all she is obsessed with, there is nothing else in her tiny mind

RORY: I consent and gladly give.
DOCTOR: Need you to say it too, mother of the bride.
AMY: I consent and gladly give.

Thats the Gallifryean wedding ceremony- human wedding ceremonies have things about duty and stuff in them, Gallifreyean weddings have this (at least the short version) is the formal aspects of a wedding. For it to be a proper Time Lord wedding he needs the consent of the parents. Whats wrong with that? Its no different from the human tradition of the man asking the brides parents for permission to marry her.

'You're the woman who married me. And wife'

I have no idea what you are objecting to here. Its simply a statement of fact. Its also merely capping along running question- is River the woman who kills or marries the Doctor? As that has been a mystery for some time as it was an event form the Doctors future- now we know which- and the Doctor here confirms it- she is the woman who marries him. So that line deliberately ties in to and caps off a long running story thread.

it hammers home her role as submissive subordinant with all the subtlety of a Slitheen fart. that's her role in life right there. how reductive, that's it? she is just his wife, not a person, not a freedom fighter, not defined by her profession, no she is defined by him.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:23 pm

there is absolutely no proof she abandons the other Doctor. - Figg

Well given she never mentions him- treats seeing the Doctor again like rejoining with an old lover she doesn't exactly seem bothered about him either- and where is he? Why is she the one hopping universes, the human Doctor has all his knowledge all his memories- he would be a far better choice than sending Rose with a huge gun.

'They have no choice in the matter, they are stuck in the 20s against their will.'

Um you just pointed out that Rose got trapped in the parallel universe against her will. Whats the difference?

'they don't fight with Torchwood or Unit, they don't carry on the fight against evil, all they do is sink into mundanity'

See there the RTD real life is shit and worthless attitude again. Its not a good message- they do good stuff, they adopt a war orphan, Amy writes for children and Rory takes care of the sick- they make a difference, in real life- and thats an important message.You dont have to be a hero, you dont have to be traveling the universe fighting evil- you can in your everyday life make a difference, make someone elses life better. That's a great message.

'The Doctor cant even be bothered meeting them again..'

Did you even watch Angels Take Manhattan- the whole tragedy of it for the Doctor is he can never see them again or the paradox will destroy New York, which would upset Halfy.

'this is just twisting things for your own agenda'

No its not- Martha leaves because the Doctor keeps comparing her to Rose, or wishing Rose was there. Such as this lovely example from the Shakespeare Code-

MARTHA: Budge up a bit, then. Sorry, there's not much room. Us two here, same bed. Tongues will wag.

DOCTOR: There's such a thing as psychic energy, but a human couldn't channel it like that. Not without a generator the size of Taunton and I think we'd have spotted that. No, there's something I'm missing, Martha. Something really close, staring me right in the face and I can't see it. Rose'd know. A friend of mine, Rose. Right now, she'd say exactly the right thing. Still, can't be helped. You're a novice, never mind. I'll take you back home tomorrow.

MARTHA: Great.

When she leaves she says this-

'I spent a lot of time with you thinking I was second best, but you know what? I am good.'

So he made her feel 'second best' who do you think she felt second best too?

'mostly the Doctor just gets on with it and doesn't ask for praise or recognition'

Which is why when River tells him what she has done he is annoyed at her and tells her its foolish, and wont do any good and says "you embarrass me".

'he is being set up once again as little tin pot god. ....I think the beauty of Tennants run is that he was invisible to most people'- Figg

"The Doctor is a legend woven throughout history. When disaster comes he's there. He brings a storm in his wake and he has only one constant companion. Death."- yeah that sounds low profile.

"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and he can see the turn of the universe."- yeah nothing God like about that description!

'and makes him a thoroughly unlikeable character.'

Unlikeable to you maybe, he is one of my favourite Doctors, and many other peoples too. You are mixing up your personal feelings with actual evidence.

'its lazy.'

Why is it lazy- I dont understand that.

'because losing a kid for a woman is a tragedy'

She didn't lose her, River is standing right there in front of her.

'does Rory have to sound like he is retarded?'

It never in million year struck me that way- he doesn't remember the real universe, that doesnt make him retarded- a nasty word to use to describe him too.

'she is just his wife, not a person, not a freedom fighter, not defined by her profession, no she is defined by him.'

When people get married they are announced man and wife- they are not announce by there professional jobs. And as I pointed out the line has come up before in the context of asking the question is she the woman who marries him or kills him? So its also answering a long running plot theme. Thats good writing. Its satisfying pay off. The viewer finally gets the answer to that question.

'If he had tried that crap with Donna she would have treated him with the contempt those words deserve'

Donna wasn't in a relationship with him. Its not even comparable they are two utterly different relationships. You are comparing apples and pears then complaining they dont taste the same.

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:02 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:there is absolutely no proof she abandons the other Doctor. - Figg

Well given she never mentions him- treats seeing the Doctor again like rejoining with an old lover she doesn't exactly seem bothered about him either- and where is he? Why is she the one hopping universes, the human Doctor has all his knowledge all his memories- he would be a far better choice than sending Rose with a huge gun.

totally irrelevent

'They have no choice in the matter, they are stuck in the 20s against their will.'

Um you just pointed out that Rose got trapped in the parallel universe against her will. Whats the difference?

Rose still fights for good, the Ponds do zilch

'they don't fight with Torchwood or Unit, they don't carry on the fight against evil, all they do is sink into mundanity'

See there the RTD real life is shit and worthless attitude again. Its not a good message- they do good stuff, they adopt a war orphan, Amy writes for children and Rory takes care of the sick- they make a difference, in real life- and thats an important message.You dont have to be a hero, you dont have to be traveling the universe fighting evil- you can in your everyday life make a difference, make someone elses life better. That's a great message.

its not real life, its an aspirational tv show where some characters are given the opportunity to better themselves, but you seem to think that's a negative thing

'The Doctor cant even be bothered meeting them again..'

Did you even watch Angels Take Manhattan- the whole tragedy of it for the Doctor is he can never see them again or the paradox will destroy New York, which would upset Halfy.

that's convenient

'this is just twisting things for your own agenda'

No its not- Martha leaves because the Doctor keeps comparing her to Rose, or wishing Rose was there. Such as this lovely example from the Shakespeare Code-

MARTHA: Budge up a bit, then. Sorry, there's not much room. Us two here, same bed. Tongues will wag.

DOCTOR: There's such a thing as psychic energy, but a human couldn't channel it like that. Not without a generator the size of Taunton and I think we'd have spotted that. No, there's something I'm missing, Martha. Something really close, staring me right in the face and I can't see it. Rose'd know. A friend of mine, Rose. Right now, she'd say exactly the right thing. Still, can't be helped. You're a novice, never mind. I'll take you back home tomorrow.

MARTHA: Great.

When she leaves she says this-

'I spent a lot of time with you thinking I was second best, but you know what? I am good.'

So he made her feel 'second best' who do you think she felt second best too?

you obviously object to human tragedy in Doctor Who. Martha not being Rose is what made her pathos more real. it is good writing, as it shows characters with depth and real feelings, not like Moffats cardboard cutouts who can experience tragedy with all the feelings of a plank of wood.

'mostly the Doctor just gets on with it and doesn't ask for praise or recognition'

Which is why when River tells him what she has done he is annoyed at her and tells her its foolish, and wont do any good and says "you embarrass me".

'he is being set up once again as little tin pot god. ....I think the beauty of Tennants run is that he was invisible to most people'- Figg

"The Doctor is a legend woven throughout history. When disaster comes he's there. He brings a storm in his wake and he has only one constant companion. Death."- yeah that sounds low profile.

Empty Bombast

"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and he can see the turn of the universe."- yeah nothing God like
about that description!

more empty meaningless bombast

'and makes him a thoroughly unlikeable character.'

Unlikeable to you maybe, he is one of my favourite Doctors, and many other peoples too. You are mixing up your personal feelings with actual evidence.

you mean like your attitude to Rose? its based on your personal dislike

'its lazy.'

Why is it lazy- I dont understand that.

'because losing a kid for a woman is a tragedy'

She didn't lose her, River is standing right there in front of her.

as an adult. Amy never met her child, she was cruelly taken nearly from birth. that doesn't matter I suppose.

'does Rory have to sound like he is retarded?'

It never in million year struck me that way- he doesn't remember the real universe, that doesnt make him retarded- a nasty word to use to describe him too.

he shouldn't be acting like a dumbass then.

'she is just his wife, not a person, not a freedom fighter, not defined by her profession, no she is defined by him.'

When people get married they are announced man and wife- they are not announce by there professional jobs. And as I pointed out the line has come up before in the context of asking the question is she the woman who marries him or kills him? So its also answering a long running plot theme. Thats good writing. Its satisfying pay off. The viewer finally gets the answer to that question.

I don't really care, it was utterly boring.

'If he had tried that crap with Donna she would have treated him with the contempt those words deserve'

Donna wasn't in a relationship with him. Its not even comparable they are two utterly different relationships. You are comparing apples and pears then complaining they dont taste the same.

no just comparing the attitude of Moffat with RTD.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:21 pm

totally irrelevent- Figg

Well yes, if you don't care about continuity, or sense. But it does fit with Rose's personality - we see her last snogging human Doctor- we see her next she doesn't so much as mention what happened to him.

'Rose still fights for good, the Ponds do zilch'

Well Im sorry but if you consider adopting an orphan or working to make others lives better as not being for the good then thats a big shame. I think they are good things, and not only that they are good things people can actually do- no one is going to hop universes with a giant gun.

'its not real life'

I was using the term as its used in the context of the show, as the choice Amy and Rory face between real life and Doctor life, which is the theme of their final series.

'where some characters are given the opportunity to better themselves'

Amy and Rory do. At the start Amy is screwed up by her encounter with e Doctor and the crack in the wall eating her life away- by the end she has a family of her own, a career and a life. Rory starts of lacking self confidence and shy, by the end he has his confidence and stands up for himself and does what he thinks is right.

Rose starts obsessed with the Doctor and ends obsessed with the Doctor- wheres the growth there?

'that's convenient'

No its the plot.

'Martha not being Rose is what made her pathos more real. it is good writing'

A post ago you were denying it even happened,now its good writing- this is what I mean by your arguments shifting like sand.

'Empty Bombast.....more empty meaningless bombast'

Lol - the first quote is from Rose the second one form Family of Blood- RTD era.

'its based on your personal dislike'

No its based on the selfishness of her character and on how the character treats others.

'Amy never met her child, she was cruelly taken nearly from birth. that doesn't matter I suppose.'

It matters so much she kills Madame Kovarian for it-

AMY: You took my baby from me and hurt her. And now she's all grown up and she's fine, but I'll never see my baby again.
KOVARIAN: But you'll still save me, though. Because he would, and you'd never do anything to disappoint your precious Doctor.
RORY: Ma'am, we have to go, now.
AMY: The Doctor is very precious to me, you're right. But do you know what else he is, Madame Kovarian? Not here.
(Amy puts Kovarian's eye drive back in place.)
AMY: River Song didn't get it all from you, sweetie.

'he shouldn't be acting like a dumbass then'

He isn't, he just doesn't remember events from the real universe. But he is not dumb. He is a high ranking military officer in this reality.

'I don't really care, it was utterly boring.'

Again just opinion, not evidence of anything.

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:51 pm

just listen to this excruciating garbage LOL

Doctor: This is my friend River. Nice hair, clever, has own gun, and unlike me she really doesn't mind shooting people. I shouldn't like that, kinda do a bit.

River: Thank you sweetie

Doctor: I know you're team players and everything but she'll definitely kill the first three of you

River: (pressing her back against the doctor's while pointing her gun) oh, the first seven, easily.

Doctor: Seven, really?

River: Oh, eight for you, honey.

Doctor: (grinning) Stop it...

River: (grinning, attempting a "breathily sexy" tone) Make me...

Doctor: (giggling, sounding aroused) maybe I will...

Amy: Is this important flirting? [...]

Doctor Sorry. As I was saying, my naughty friend is going to kill the first three of you to attack...

[...]

(the Doctor and River are back to back, as River opens fire

River: what are you doing?

The Doctor: Helping!

River: You've got a screwdriver, go and build a cabinet!

The Doctor: That's really rude!

River: Shut up and drive!

(Doctor dashes into the TARDIS. River kills all the Silents, twirling and shooting in slow motion to heroic music)

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:57 pm

Yup- love that scene, tons of fun, humorous banter, bit of action, and you get to see the Doctor and River flirting, and the chemistry between Matt and Alex is brilliant in the scene.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:01 pm

Couldnt find it on its own but the scene is at 7.31 in this vid-

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:10 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Yup- love that scene, tons of fun, humorous banter, bit of action, and you get to see the Doctor and River flirting, and the chemistry between Matt and Alex is brilliant in the scene.

If you like shallow hackneyed 3rd rate writing of course. Sounds like Benny Hill and one of the Stepford Wives.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:13 pm

I only wish I could write at the level Moffat does actually- I havenothig but admiration for his writing skills, there is a reason he is at the peak of his profession in UK tv, and there is some very good competition, and there is a reaosn Moffat era Who is the biggest the show has ever been in 50 years..

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:27 pm

Some great humorous dialogue and fun-

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:35 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I only wish I could write at the level Moffat does actually- I havenothig but admiration for his writing skills, there is a reason he is at the peak of his profession in UK tv, and there is some very good competition, and there is a reaosn Moffat era Who is the biggest the show has ever been in 50 years..

well I think you can write better than Moffat. I cant imagine you ever writing dross like 'hello sweetie. spoilers'

Moffat does have a few good ideas but is sadly lacking in some important areas and makes up for it with gloss imo.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:42 pm

When I rewatch series 1-4 I dont find anything new.
When I rewatch series 5-8 I find new things, new facets, new undercurrents and themes. I find Moffats writing stands scrutiny in a way RTD's doesnt.

Its not that RTD cant write good stuff, he most certainly can (Midnight is one of all time favourite episodes of Who, its a brilliant bit of economic writng with excellent secondary characters and a fantastic atmosphere and mood of increasing tension and doom) but its not got the same depth for me as Moffat's writing does, it doesn't have the depth of themes in my view.
I admire that about Moffat, that he can both produce populist material that people enjoy as entertainment whilst at the same time addressing a lot of deeper themes under the surface.
That for me is the difference between the two eras.
But I will thank you for the compliment (just wish it was true!)

If you've never seen Midinght I recommend it, RTD's best stand alone episode in my view, and as such can be watched with no knowledge of the show required beforehand (bit like Blink that way)-

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:52 pm

I have seen it and I thought it was good. I think RTD has just as many themes, just different themes, and the emotions seem to be more sincere and deeper. imo.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:58 pm

I thought you would have seen it, but I bunged it up for others to watch, especially anyone who hasn't watched Who yet and so cant engage in our, um, colourful, debates.

I just don't see the deeper themes in RTD era- when I rewatch an RTD era episode I don't see anything I didn't see the first time I watched them.
And Moffats make you work it out, puzzle like element to his writing appeals to me- that sort of writing always has. I dont like being led by the hand.
One of the reasons I like Midnight so much is that there are no answers in it, you are left to decide for yourself exactly what just happened- RTD doesn't do that nearly often enough for my liking.

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:05 pm

trouble is I don't like Moffats puzzles because they are frustrating red herrings most of the time, theres no pay off for trying to do the mental gymnastics you need to pay attention to them. like the Doctors name stuff, at the end its just left dangling there after you expect something awesome. its not satisfying and it is meaningless waffle. Seeing the Doctors wife, his name, where he is buried, his tomb, his baby crib, all this information lessens his mystery and makes him more like anyone else. The themes are pretty unremarkable and hidden under layers of guff.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:13 pm

I cant agree- the Doctors name wasn't a red herring it was thematic, it led directly to the idea of the promise which the name represented, which in turn was at the heart of the big scene in the 50th Anniversary. It was also the frame for the idea of a regen that the Doctor did not acknowledge as not being worthy of the name of Doctor because of his actions.

And I dont see that seeing him having a wife is any different from seeing him have a granddaughter in the first series. And its miles better than giving him an unwanted clone daughter created by DNA taken from him without consent.

And although we saw his grave that time line was altered by the Time Lords when they gave him a new set of regens.

And series 8 is very much about giving us a Doctor we cant predict the behaviour of. Moffat deliberately wanted to put the Doctor who? element back to the fore by making the audience unsure of him again, as he was at the very start of Who, when he was as liable to want to smash a wounded mans head in with a rock so they could move faster as he was to giggle like a school boy in delight at a new planet.

by **Amarië** Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:20 pm

His writing is lazy. He wants to tell his long story, which is fine. But he takes the ultimate shortcut with his female characters because he doesn't bother to give them time.

How do you show even the dumbest idiot why the main character should be interested in the woman? Sex. First we see of grown up Amy is make up, red lips, short skirt and handcuffs, And to top it of, she's a kissogram - more or less a stripper, as you have said yourself. Instant interest. Don't talk to the brain, talk to the dick. River is 80% sass, flirting and handguns i.e. dicks. He can do better, but he chose not to.

Second part of why I am not thrilled about his writing is the constant need to either guide or try to be "on of the cool kids". Like with Sherlock he forgets about the story and gets swept away with fanfics and cheers and tries to sound like them so they'll like him more, or because he like the style and playfulness of it.

You don't TELL the audience that Capaldi had mad, brilliant eyebrows, you SHOW it. Don't TELL me Amy is interesting, SHOW me. I need more than skin to be swept away. Rose showed me. Martha showed me. Donna blew me away. Amy bored me, she (well, Moffat) gave me nothing but a pretty face. Clara is at least trying.

by Mrs Figg Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:32 pm

Terry Pratchett (2010) wrote:

The unexpected, unadvertised solution which kisses it all better is known as a deus ex machina—literally, a god from the machine. And a god from the machine is what the Doctor now is. A decent detective story provides you with enough tantalising information to allow you to make a stab at a solution before the famous detective struts his stuff in the library. Doctor Who replaces this with speed, fast talking, and what appears to be that wonderful element ‘makeitupasyougalongeum.’

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:36 pm

'First we see of grown up Amy is make up, red lips, short skirt and handcuffs, And to top it of, she's a kissogram'

She is a kissogram to show that she is unable to keep down a steady job, that she is directionless, but that she is body confident- but she has never properly grown up, her adult job is basically dressing up. And no a kissogram is not a stripper.
The short skirts had nothing to with Moffat, they were Karen Gillans choice as she felt thats how the character would dress as her looks were all she had any real confidence in and so she was trading off them and she hid behind that facade.

"You don't TELL the audience that Capaldi had mad, brilliant eyebrows, you SHOW it."

"Don't TELL me Amy is interesting, SHOW me."

I was interested in the character from the very start, from the moment we saw Amelia praying to santa to help fix the crack in her wall and from how she reacts to the arrival of the Doctor.
There is a lot more than skin to Amy- but I am beginning to think some women have a problem seeing beyond her looks to anything else as there is so much more to the character and her development across her years in the show.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:40 pm

Terry Pratchett (2010) wrote:

The unexpected, unadvertised solution which kisses it all better is known as a deus ex machina—literally, a god from the machine. And a god from the machine is what the Doctor now is. A decent detective story provides you with enough tantalising information to allow you to make a stab at a solution before the famous detective struts his stuff in the library. Doctor Who replaces this with speed, fast talking, and what appears to be that wonderful element ‘makeitupasyougalongeum.’- Figg

Um he said that in May of 2010, Moffat Who aired in April of that year- he was talking about RTD era Who as evidenced by the rest of the quote-

"The Doctor himself has in recent years been built up into an amalgam of Mother Teresa, Jesus Christ... and Tinkerbell," he said. "There is nothing he doesn't know and nothing he can't do... Perhaps they should start transmitting the programme on Sundays."

by **Amarië** Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:41 pm

"but I am beginning to think some women have a problem seeing beyond her looks"

BEGINNING?! Are you KIDDING me?! You've been accusing me and Figgy of this since the start, repeatedly. Constantly. And I am fucking fed up with it.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:43 pm

Well when you both continually bring up her physical appearance as a stick to beat her with it does beg the question.
You dont see me using her looks as a defence of her, or using Roses looks as a reason to not like her.
I discuss the characters not their physical appearance.

by **Amarië** Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:59 pm

It does not beg the question at all. You are the one who ignores everything we say to make it about her looks, and then turn it to a "you women are just jealous" low blow. I need more than pretty, you don't. Rose had it, Martha had it, Donna had it. Amy could have had it, but Moff couldn't give it.