Doctor Who [10]

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Looking at the last one its a shame Moffat couldn't get the rights to the film posters - he had planned to put them on the board in UNIT HQ in the 50th ep, with all the other Doctor stuff UNIT has collected with the idea that Ian and Barbera sold their story when they got back as a book which got turned into two films- thus explaining the differences between them- so in the Whoverse the films would exist as films based on their accounts. I always liked that idea. Sort of brings them into the fold more.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Looking at the last one its a shame Moffat couldn't get the rights to the film posters - he had planned to put them on the board in UNIT HQ in the 50th ep, with all the other Doctor stuff UNIT has collected with the idea that Ian and Barbera sold their story when they got back as a book which got turned into two films- thus explaining the differences between them- so in the Whoverse the films would exist as films based on their accounts. I always liked that idea. Sort of brings them into the fold more.

Yeah I liked the idea as well, maybe in the 60th instead...

The movies weren't great, but they are campy fun and some of the earliest Who I watched, Peter Cushing was great as usual. At least he always had the knowledge they were non-canon, Richard E Grant was the doctor for a couple of months, then told he wasn't (though I've heard he was terrible anyway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalka_Doctor

The originals stories the films are based on are definitely superior, but on the other hand the films are much better shot than the BBC studio bound stuff (and in colour!).
And Bernard Cribbins gets to be in the Who films of the 60's and Wilfred in NuWho.

Ive heard of the Grant Doctor stuff but Ive never actually heard any of it- but hey at least he got to be in 'proper' canon Who as he Great Intelligence, thats not bad, getting to play a villian that goes all the way back to the time of the 2nd Doctor.

in the Smith era poster everyone has a gun or a weapon in their hands.

And in RTD era ones the Doctor is either kissing or embracing Rose! (Not to mention the BFG Rose is carrying)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:And in RTD era ones the Doctor is either kissing or embracing Rose! (Not to mention the BFG Rose is carrying)

*sigh* I like the other two era posters, the artist has obviously done a lot of work on them. Its very cleverly done. But the Smith era poster looks violent.

I dont remember denying anything. Just shows the Moffat era is much more exciting with higher stakes. The Doctor fighting for his new family.

Although in the Tennant one Rose has a massive gun, as does the Doctors Daughter and Jack with Gwen, the Sycoraz has a massive sword too.

But I hardly think thats a good account of death and violence in each era.
For the record someone has added up all the deaths in each era-they total

Number of Deaths RTD Caused:
1,189,507,906
Number of Deaths Moffat Caused:
30,170,551

Speaks for itself. They are both damned blood thirsty!

Heres a vid of RTD onscreen deaths, well some of them-

Although I prefer this one as it covers more of NUWho and it includes all the deaths that were eventually erased, time rewritten ect- if you include all them the total number of deaths the Doctor is responsible for in NUWHo is wonderfully ridiculous-



And yes that final total does read- 12,318,801,633,367

Rather gives Davros and Madame Kovarian some justification!

I think you have missed the point. Who isn't about waving guns about. But Smiths era is particularly full of it. It doesn't make it more exciting, it makes it more banal. The Doctor isn't supposed to relish fighting, he should be about avoiding bloodshed, hence the sonic screwdriver. I think Smiths Doctor crossed a line. He had a gun toting wife for one thing, that doesn't make a person strong. Carrying weapons shouldn't make it more exciting, that's not what Who is about. Moffat cheapens Who with violence of the conventional kind. Smiths Doctor doesn't do much protecting of his new 'family' either. He mostly just leaves them to sink or swim, he is crap at protection, he puts them in danger without a care in the world, they experience untold torture because of him. If I were them I would be running very fast in the opposite direction. Its all pain no gain.

So what about the 3rd Doctors entire run then? His companions were UNIT and they were bristling with guns and waved them about every single week.
In fact the Brig always carried a gun. Jamie (2nd Doctor) and Leela (4th Doctor) both carried and used knives. K-9 shot a deadly laser bolt from his nose!
Whats important is that the Doctor doesn't use conventional violence, he doesn't have a gun and thats as true of the 11 era as of any- take A Good Man Goes to War as an example where the Doctors plan is to retake Demons Run and defeat an army, without firing a single shot-which he does. And so far its certainly true of 12; 'the soldier so brave he doesn't need a gun' (and no Venusian judo either!).

And what about Rose and her BFG? (Big Fucking Gun)-



But the Doctors position on violence has always had an element of hypocrisy about it- he doesn't use a gun yet he causes a lot of death and destruction, as excellently pointed out by Davros in the best scene in Journey's End-

DAVROS- The man who abhorrs violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor. You take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons. Behold your children of time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor. You made this......How many more, just think, how many have died in your name?....The Doctor, the man who keeps running. Never looking back because he dare not, out of shame.



This is also whats on his mind in A Town Called Mercy when he hands Jax over to the gunslinger and is only stopped by Amy (doing what you said no companion in Moffat era does- being the moral compass for the Doctor), it also highlights nicely the grey areas in his personality-



And of course the result of his mercy is that almost immediately a good and decent man gets killed.

Its also true in the RTD era, not only form the above Davros scene but also in Boom Town with the Slitheen Margaret and 9 (note also the equating the Doctor with being like a God, which as I pointed out was a strong theme of the RTD era, and here it is right at the start of the RTD run)-

Margaret: I spared her life.

The Doctor: You let one of them go but that's nothing new. Every now and then a little victim's spared because she smiled, 'cause he's got freckles. 'Cause they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions. Because once in awhile—on a whim, if the wind's in the right direction—you happen to be kind.

Margaret: Only a killer would know that. IS that right? From what I've seen, your funny little happy go-lucky life leaves devastation in its wake. Always moving on because you dare not look back. Playing with so many people's lives you might as well be a god. And you're right, Doctor. You're absolutely right. Sometimes you let one go. Let me go.


Its one of the things which sets the character apart, makes him interesting, its grey areas, its why he is not a hero. I said before Who was in a long line of dystopian British sci-fi. Its what marks British sci-fi out from say American sci-fi which tends towards optimism, hope triumphing over evil. In Who even the Doctors victories are bitter sweet, usually marked by loss, grief and death. Nothing comes without a price.


'he puts them in danger without a care in the world'

You just summed up every single Doctor. Thats exactly what he does. You should take a leaf out of Rorys book when he makes the exact same accusation of the Doctor and tells him he should pay some attention once in a while and take more care and gets this reply-

Doctor - Thats not how I travel.

Rory- Then I dont want to travel with you any more.

If you cant stand the heat get out the kitchen- as Tegan companion to the 5th Doctor did when she just couldn't take all the death any more-



And the Doctors lack of consideration for others is also highlighted in the RTD era story Family of Blood-

Joan: Answer me this: if the Doctor had never visited us, never chosen this place—on a whim—would anyone have died? ... You can go.

Found this whilst looking up vids on UNIT- never seen it before, a fun little mini-documentary made in the McCoy era about UNIT (lots of guns!!)

Love this, brilliant-

you know when you said Rose was flirting with Jack (and that according to you was bad) well it turns out that Moffat wrote that episode.  HE wrote Rose falling for jack in the 2nd WW episode. figures. He also wrote the Madame de Pompadour episode where another historical female figure tries to bone the Doctor after he has stalked her from being a small child. seems like Moffat just cant resist these creepy clichés.

Mrs Figg wrote:you know when you said Rose was flirting with Jack (and that according to you was bad) well it turns out that Moffat wrote that episode.  HE wrote Rose falling for jack in the 2nd WW episode. figures. He also wrote the Madame de Pompadour episode where another historical female figure tries to bone the Doctor after he has stalked her from being a small child. seems like Moffat just cant resist these creepy clichés.

According to RTD he never touched Moffat's scripts when he was showrunner, so Petty hasn't got an excuse for this one

I know which episodes Moffat wrote- all the good ones in the RTD era- the WW2 one, the Pompadour one, Blink, silence in the library- all regarded as among the best episodes of 10's run and which regularly top the favourite episodes lists. And off the back of which Moffat got the gig as showrunner.
So I am perfectly aware of who wrote what episodes thankyou very much.

But RTD is showrunner and approves all scripts, nothing makes the screen without his approval, same as for Moffat now- not sure about RTD not having some hand in their writing though- some of it doesnt seem Moffats style and it would be unusual of RTD not to, he heavily rewrote most of the scripts in his era- do you have a quote for that Malick?

But Jack is not a one off character- he reappears many times not written  by Moffat and he is still acting the same way, still trying to sleep with anything that moves, still promiscuous. And of course Moffat only write Rose in the episodes he penned (and in Pompadour he sidelines her for most of it!) so he is certainly not responsible for her unpleasant bitchiness, jealousy, or appalling treatment of Mickey.

I do  note though Figg you seem to have no reply to your claim about guns in Who, or to RTD's the Doctor as God, or to claiming no companion in Moffat era pulls the Doctor up for his behavior, or your claim that its only Moffat era the Doctor puts others in danger without consideration. All wrong. And demonstrably so.

RTD.


Moffat.

Donna Noble....“I’ll tell you something, Doctor. Something I’ve never told you before. I think you’re wrong.”

River Song…"we do as The Doctor’s friends always do…as we are told".

Um River was saying that in regards to burning his corpse as per his last wishes. Also she was trying to make sure everything happened as it should, as she knows the outcome of the events as it was her younger self they just watched shoot the  Doctor dead. And Amy is on the verge of giving up completely.

And in the gif the Doctor isn't shooting anyone, or in fact doing anything useful at all, its just moral support and a lightshow, as the dialogue for that scene shows-

River- What are you doing?
Doctor- Helping.
River- You've got a screwdriver, go put up some shelves.

Funny old thing context.


But heres a partial list, as Im going off memory of episodes in which the companions either pull the Doctor up for his behaviour, refuse to go along with him, bring him down a peg or two, or point out his behaviour his unacceptable-

The Beast Below, Vampires of Venice, Flesh and Stone, Impossible Astronaut, the Almost People, A Good Man goes to War, The Girl Who Waited, A Town Called Mercy, The Angels Take Manhatten, Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, Time of the Doctor, Deep Breath, Into the Dalek, Listen, Kill the Moon, Mummy on the Orient Express.

And now lets compare that to what you claimed was true-

'this happened at least once, max'

Your arguments shift more than sand on a beach.

An American Professor in Syracuse is running courses on Who- you can read the class notes from the first classes here-

http://www.syracuse.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/02/doctor_who_class_notes_what_i_learned_about_the_third_doctor_color_television_an.html

talking of context. those examples you give of companions questioning the Doctor. are they mainly Amy being stroppy or 'feisty' or are they genuine questioning as in the RTD years. I think probably Moffats 'questioning' doesn't hold much water. I suggest that Moffats females are submissive fangirls in the face of his godhead. They may make noises, they make superficial protests, but they all fall into line in the end. hell they even jump off cliffs because he tells them to. They exist to service him, how on earth could they question him? srsly.

or are they genuine questioning as in the RTD years.- Figg

They are times where the Doctors actions, morals, behaviour, or attitude are called into question, or he is outright stopped from carrying out something by their intervention.

Ive been racking my brains and looking at episode lists and I am struggling to think of more than one instance where Rose questions the Doctors character, morals or behaviour, or stops him from acting (Dalek is the only one I can think of)- Donna yes, she does it a few times, in her very first appearence in Runaway Bride, and of course notably so in Fires of Pompeii. But Rose, I'm struggling.

You got any examples of her doing so?

cant be bothered trawling the net to prove my point, but I don't really need to, everyone knows that RTD made companions who were their own people. not dreary shallow stereotypes.

RTD
ROSE: But what do I do every day, mum? What do I do? Get up, catch the bus, go to work, come back home, eat chips and go to bed? Is that it?
MICKEY: It’s what the rest of us do.
ROSE: But I can’t!
MICKEY: Why, because you’re better than us?
ROSE: No, I didn’t mean that. But it was. It was a better life. And I don’t mean all the traveling and seeing aliens and spaceships and things. That don’t matter. The Doctor showed me a better way of living your life. You know he showed you too. That you don’t just give up. You don’t just let things happen. You make a stand. You say no. You have the guts to do what’s right when everyone else just runs away, and I just can’t.


Moffat
RIVER: I've been sending out a message. A distress call. Outside the bubble of our time, the universe is still turning, and I've sent a message everywhere. To the future and the past, the beginning and the end of everything. The Doctor is dying. Please, please help.
DOCTOR: River! River, this is ridiculous. That would mean nothing to anyone. It's insane. Worse, it's stupid. You embarrass me.
AMY: We barricaded the door. We've got a few minutes. Just tell him. Just tell him, River.
RIVER: Those reports of the sun spots and the solar flares. They're wrong. There aren't any. It's not the sun, it's you. The sky is full of a million, million voices saying yes, of course we'll help. You've touched so many lives, saved so many people. Did you think when your time came, you'd really have to do more than just ask? You've decided that the universe is better off without you, but the universe doesn't agree.
DOCTOR: River, no one can help me. A fixed point has been altered. Time is disintegrating.
RIVER: I can't let you die.
DOCTOR: But I have to die.
RIVER: Shut up! I can't let you die without knowing you are loved by so many, and so much, and by no one more than me.
DOCTOR: River, you and I, we know what this means. We are ground zero of an explosion that will engulf all reality. Billions on billions will suffer and die.
RIVER: I'll suffer if I have to kill you.
DOCTOR: More than every living thing in the universe?
RIVER: Yes.
DOCTOR: River, River, why do you had have to be this? Melody Pond, your daughter. I hope you're both proud.
RORY: I'm not sure I completely understand.
AMY: We got married and had a kid and that's her.
RORY: Okay.
DOCTOR: Amy, uncuff me now. Okay, I need a strip of cloth about a foot long. Anything will do. Never mind.
(The Doctor takes off his bow tie.)
DOCTOR: River, take one end of this. Wrap it around your hand, and hold it out to me.
RIVER: What am I doing?
DOCTOR: As you're told. Now, we're in the middle of a combat zone, so we'll have to do the quick version. Captain Williams, say I consent and gladly give.
RORY: To what?
DOCTOR: Just say it. Please.
RORY: I consent and gladly give.
DOCTOR: Need you to say it too, mother of the bride.
AMY: I consent and gladly give.
DOCTOR: Now River, I'm about to whisper something in your ear, and you have to remember it very, very carefully, and tell no one what I said.
(He whispers something very short.)
DOCTOR: I just told you my name. Now, there you go, River Song. Melody Pond. You're the woman who married me. And wife, I have a request. This world is dying and it's my fault, and I can't bear it another day. Please, help me. There isn't another way.
RIVER: Then you may kiss the bride.
DOCTOR: I'll make it a good one.
RIVER: You'd better.


the differences are striking. RTDs conversations are real, heartfelt and show a human made a better person by friendship with the Doctor. Moffat shows the Doctor as nasty little god giving orders, wise cracking companions who are basically finding shallow brittle humour at the fact they have effectively lost a child, but hey, there are no real consequences in Moffat World. In Moffat World all women have to do is get married, that's their job in life.

everyone knows that RTD made companions who were their own people. not dreary shallow stereotypes.- Figg

Um obviously not everyone. Its quite clear form a 'trawl of the internet' I am not the only one who has a strong dislike of Rose. Or thinks her an unpleasant character.

The stuff you quote is not the companion standing up to the Doctor, its not questioning his morals or his actions. Is just her fangirling over him, again.

And its a pity Rose cant see anything of value in her real life worth fighting for, standing up for or not running from- given running is exactly what she does, from real life.
If she really believed those sentiments she would have stayed, made her life mean something- like say Jo Grant did after she left and went to help the lives of children in Africa. Or Sarah Jane who tried to change the world by exposing things governments prefer covered up through her journalism.