Re: Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [2]

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:25 am

PJ did not shoot it all in Helms Deep, its split into two parts and the final parting when he rejects her is where it should be, at Dunharrow.- Figg

He does shoot his load too soon with that scene. Its even before the battle and she is declaring her love for him, and there is no real reason for her do so- in Pj's its because she is being sent into the caves for goodness sake. She shouldn't even be there. She should be leading her people to Dunharrow.

Emotionally the parting scene is where both their arcs reach the tipping point regards each other- up till now Aragorn has been trying not to notice her infatuation and advances as unrequited love saddens him. And she has been trying not to come out directly and say what her true feelings towards him are because they are all tied up with more complicated ones like the sense she is being left on the shelf because she is a woman.
And at the parting it all comes to a head.
Its the cruelty of her finally blurting out her feelings and Aragorn having to reject them in cold light which tips her over into becoming Dernhelm.
Moving her declaration of love out of that scene just leave is totally flat and without a point.
Its one of the most beautiful poignant scenes in the book in my view, their parting at Dunharrow, and the dialogue is beautiful and heartbreaking, and PJ trashes it.

'It doesnt matter if Legoas knows about the legend, its the sort of thing Elves know.'

Why would an elf who has spent all his life living in an isolated kingdom of elves in the far north be totally aware of an obscure human myth about a mountain in the far south? Its not logical at all.
It would be much more logical in the absence of the Dunedain to have Eomer or Theoden explain it, they at least are local to the area and in the book know the legend.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:51 am

Heres the parting scene from the BBC version as its close to the book dialogue.
Note that the content of the scene is Eowyn challenging Aragorn, revealing her own feelings about her life as a cage and then declaring, in a partly shielded manner, her feelings towards Aragorn.
For Aragorns part he tries to let her down gently by strongly hinting his heart lies elsewhere.

I say there is nothing left to say in PJ's version because there is not- Eowyns declaration about her own life PJ moved much earlier to the start when we first meet her and before they even leave Meduseld.
Aragorn hinting at Arwen and where his heart lies gets moved tot he stables and the walk to Helms Deep.
Her declaration of love he put in before Helms Deep.
Those are the three main components of their conversation at the parting, in fact they are the entire substance of their conversation at the parting.
There is literally nothing left of consequence for them to say to each other in PJ's in comparison to the original, its already all been used up much earlier in the film.

by halfwise Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:28 pm

I didn't really agree with the delivery of the lines in that version, but it's my own reading I suppose. In that radio version Eowyn seems to be scolding Aragorn; in my reading she was pleading with him while trying to show she was strong. And in this version he sounds more like he's brushing her off rather than being tender. His voice in fact doesn't sound right at all to me: like an old man with the speaking patterns of a bishop rather than a well tutored fighting man with vigor.

The movie may have painfully condensed that scene and misplaced it in timing somewhat, but to me the interaction was more true in the movie. The casting at least was truer.

by azriel Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:40 pm

Funny how we hear things differently ? I hear Eowyn hoping to use flattery in Aragorn's prowess to keep him near her so that when the time is right, ( when shes got the guts ) she can win him over. He, senses it & doesnt want to hurt her & hints at where hes heart DOES lie, at Rivendell. She must have heard that line but, brushed it aside certain she could hang on to him, even for 5more minutes. {{{ just fooking blurt it out Eowyn ! you have not much else to lose ! }}}
{{{ I would ! }}}
{{{ but Im an old bat}}}
{{{ I know different now Smile

}}}

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:50 pm

I agree with your reading of it Azriel.
She even pauses and falls silent, as Tolkien says she does in the book after Aragorn mentions where he'd rather be before she goes on with a different tact opening with "you are a stern Lord and resolute," and then trying to convince him to let her go in his company instead of him staying with her.
What both film and radio version leave out is her eventual breakdown when she begs him as he is leaving to take her along and cries. Theres a lovely bit where Gimli cant bring himself to look on her because seeing someone so proud and noble reduced to tears is too painful.
And Aragorn has to prove how stern and resolute he is by riding on, with only those close to him seeing the pain in his face.

I love that whole bit. And Eowyn going to the point of breaking is important for what she does next.

by azriel Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:11 pm

Im wondering if peejers can feel emotion other than his old slash/gore movies ? even those he sees as a joke. oh yeah, ha ha, very funny Rolling Eyes

To show pain, loss, heartbreak, emotion etc, you have to understand it, To understand it, you have to experience it. Then, you can convey it to your audience. If you are found lacking in direction, are you lacking in life ?
And this includes ALL forms of emotion.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:14 pm

It just saddens me that all this great emotional drama thats there in the interplay between characters and in the subtleties in the dialogue and it just doesn't seem to interest PJ. He doesn't try to bring it out, or understand, he just gives a shallow rendition of it before moving on to the next bit of action.

I mean PJ moved Eowyn's declaration of love earlier as a cap stone to his own forced addition- having Aragorn go off for a dream and an excuse to put Arwen in, he milked that for some terrible cliched false 'he's dead' grief from Eowyn then used that false grief to justify her declaring her love for him on his return.
And it all rings false.
It also totally robs their parting of anything meaningful for her to say to him and the power of it is in the timing, it has to come right at the end.

by halfwise Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:26 pm

Eowyn was not the type to use flattery. Ever.

by Mrs Figg Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:30 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:PJ did not shoot it all in Helms Deep, its split into two parts and the final parting when he rejects her is where it should be, at Dunharrow.- Figg

He does shoot his load too soon with that scene. Its even before the battle and she is declaring her love for him, and there is no real reason for her do so- in Pj's its because she is being sent into the caves for goodness sake. She shouldn't even be there. She should be leading her people to Dunharrow.

Emotionally the parting scene is where both their arcs reach the tipping point regards each other- up till now Aragorn has been trying not to notice her infatuation and advances as unrequited love saddens him. And she has been trying not to come out directly and say what her true feelings towards him are because they are all tied up with more complicated ones like the sense she is being left on the shelf because she is a woman.
And at the parting it all comes to a head.
Its the cruelty of her finally blurting out her feelings and Aragorn having to reject them in cold light which tips her over into becoming Dernhelm.
Moving her declaration of love out of that scene just leave is totally flat and without a point.
Its one of the most beautiful poignant scenes in the book in my view, their parting at Dunharrow, and the dialogue is beautiful and heartbreaking, and PJ trashes it.

Absolute tosh. PJ handles it perfectly. Its a slow build up to the final rejection and Eowyn comes out of it with a bit more dignity in the film. For a start their ill fated non-romance is played out in private between just them two. The Exchange in Helms Deep is amongst the hustle and bustle of the preperations for battle and nobody overhears them. In the book Eowyn declares her love in front of the whole company of the Dunedain, Legolas and Gimli. She falls to her knees and begs him not to go, not very dignified, while in the film she gets rejected in private, its far more intimate and personal between them both. The scene afterwards with her and Theoden trying to comfort her, is when she becomes Dernhelm. Their romance, from the happy radiance of the cup sharing, to the final rejection, is perfectly and subtly played out.

'It doesnt matter if Legoas knows about the legend, its the sort of thing Elves know.'

Why would an elf who has spent all his life living in an isolated kingdom of elves in the far north be totally aware of an obscure human myth about a mountain in the far south? Its not logical at all.
It would be much more logical in the absence of the Dunedain to have Eomer or Theoden explain it, they at least are local to the area and in the book know the legend.

Legolas is explaining it to Gimli. Theres only 3 of them there. Theres no reason why a person who has lived thousands of years wouldnt know a legend involving Isildur.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:52 pm

halfwise wrote: Eowyn was not the type to use flattery. Ever.

Perhaps some vestiges of Wormtongue's ways still hung around the corners of her mind.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:52 pm

The Exchange in Helms Deep is amongst the hustle and bustle of the preperations for battle and nobody overhears them.- Figg

Its in the middle of the street surrounded by people, they only act like they cant hear because they're extras. In reality everyone around would have heard and would be eavesdropping like mad on such important people having a public exchange.

'She falls to her knees and begs him not to go, not very dignified'

Tolkien does not in the slightest rob of her dignigty in this scene. He understands her very well. Here is a strong independent woman who has through service and doing her duty being forced into a life of drudgery and growing misery. Which when her duty to Theoden is finally relieved she is then being denied by the men in her society the life she feels she deserves and merits and instead given more dull duties to perform instead.
And when Aragorn came galloping in she pinned all her hopes on him, and he has dashed them.
And at the last, after his rejection of her she begs him to let her go with him. Thats how bad she wants out her current life. So bad has her life become to her that a woman as proud as she is and of noble birth is stooping to begging and pleading. And even to tears.

This is a woman who very shortly is about to make the decision to ride, not to a glorious life, but to a glorious death. She is essential of a suicidal mood.
Her break down, reaching the point where she just can't go on with the sort of life she has been forced to lead, is crucial to what she does next.

And makes for excellent drama.

by Mrs Figg Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:36 pm

In a book.
In a film its better to have the two characters play out their drama in a more intimate way. The film plays out the hot/cold, hope/despair thing very well. and her deathly stillness looking out on the Cliff after her final parting with Aragorn, is very well done. No tears, no begging, no dramatics, her pain is deep and quiet and befitting a Shieldmaiden.

by halfwise Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:54 pm

I'm with Figgles. I don't think the relationship was mishandled in the movie. I did feel that the radio show, even with Tolkien's exact words, did not come off right. It's all in the feeling.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:05 pm

I think it was fatally flawed in the film- but it was so close to being good.

They took the substance of the final conversation and used it to have moments between the two earlier.
So they moved her caged speech to the scene in Meduseld at night- its a nice scene between them and works well.
They moved Aragorn hinting at Arwen into two scenes- the stables where he gives almost the same worded hint as he does in the book, and on the march when she asks about the jewel.

Those are both in my view good examples of adaption. Thats what they should be doing to convey the same information in a manner suited to film.
But moving the declaration of love to as early as they did, and for such a throw away trivial thing as Aragorns invented cliff plunge and fake death, its just wasted and destroys their parting by leaving it empty of anything really meaningful or important needing to be still said as they have used all the content up by then.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:20 pm

Well the cat is offciailly out the bag and shitting in a corner.
From an interview with PJ-

'Obviously The Hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield’s quest for the Lonely Mountain, and Lord of the Rings is the story of Frodo’s journey to try to destroy the ring. But they are nonetheless connected and they feed into each other and are in the same world.'

On Tauriel-

'You have to be aware of your audience or otherwise you’re just not doing your job. I just think of all those eight-year-old, nine-year-old, 10-year-old girls who come to see these films. Who are they going to actually empathize with? At least they have Tauriel. At least they know how to kill Orcs now. So that could come in handy one day. We are teaching girls good skills!'

And don't forget teaching them how to have their lives revolve around dominant male figures.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/04/no-regrets-peter-jackson-says-goodbye-to-middle-earth.html

by malickfan Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well the cat is offciailly out the bag and shitting in a corner.
From an interview with PJ-

'Obviously The Hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield’s quest

Well, it is kinda, Bilbo is a passenger on the quest and it is told via his point of view, but It's defintely more concerned with his personal growth and character arc that killing dragons, or orc wrestling.

by malickfan Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:31 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

On Tauriel-

'You have to be aware of your audience or otherwise you’re just not doing your job. I just think of all those eight-year-old, nine-year-old, 10-year-old girls who come to see these films. Who are they going to actually empathize with? At least they have Tauriel. At least they know how to kill Orcs now. So that could come in handy one day. We are teaching girls good skills!'

And don't forget teaching them how to have their lives revolve around dominant male figures.

Yeah because teaching young girls how to kill things is a good message that Tolkien would agree with Rolling Eyes

by azriel Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:37 pm

And dont forget having their lives led round dominant male figures !! Mad

......( in what way ? )
I didnt give a shat about males & females & their roles when I was 8,9 or 10yrs old !! What a W%*&£R !! Condescending git ! I know youngsters have moved on since my day but still. Isnt the story the main objective ?

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:58 pm

having their lives led round dominant male figures !!- Azriel

Thats an addition of mine- because everything Tauriel does is in some way either defined by a male or for a male or because of a male.

by Mrs Figg Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:24 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
But moving the declaration of love to as early as they did, and for such a throw away trivial thing as Aragorns invented cliff plunge and fake death, its just wasted and destroys their parting by leaving it empty of anything really meaningful or important needing to be still said as they have used all the content up by then.

You are confusing your dislike of the Aragorn fake death thing with what is actually happening in those scenes. Its the evolving feelings between the two of them that you are missing. You are missing how women really feel in that situation. its absurd to claim it destroys their parting. It doesnt, it makes it more poignant. Eowyn up to that point still believes she has a chance with Aragorn, during the journey with the people fleeing from Rohan, she is still like a woman newly in love, she makes him soup ( I dislike that scene but it demonstrates what I mean) she is curious about the jewel, she has no idea that Aragorn can never love her. She goes to Helms Deep and finds Aragorn is missing, and when he returns alive, she is overjoyed but has the beginnings of doubt when Legolas returns the jewel. then in a burst of frustration and anguish she all but declares her love. Aragorn does not reply as there is no time, but this is the first real moment when she doubts him. The next time in Dunharrow she confronts him finally, and is rejected. Its a perfect linear sequence of their doomed relationship.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:29 pm

Its too soon and she is getting to do exciting things- in the film she gets to go to Helms Deep, she has a nice time on the way there, laughing with Gimli, spending time with Araggorn- its nothing like the woman in the book who whilst this is going on she is sent to perform her boring duty of waiting in the mountains.
They lose the depth of Eowyn's pain by trivializing her situation.
And her declaration of love coming so early just makes her seem like a silly school girl with a crush, not a grown woman desperate to escape a life that she feels is slowly killing her will to live.

by Mrs Figg Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well the cat is offciailly out the bag and shitting in a corner.
From an interview with PJ-

'Obviously The Hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield’s quest for the Lonely Mountain, and Lord of the Rings is the story of Frodo’s journey to try to destroy the ring. But they are nonetheless connected and they feed into each other and are in the same world.'

On Tauriel-

'You have to be aware of your audience or otherwise you’re just not doing your job. I just think of all those eight-year-old, nine-year-old, 10-year-old girls who come to see these films. Who are they going to actually empathize with? At least they have Tauriel. At least they know how to kill Orcs now. So that could come in handy one day. We are teaching girls good skills!'

And don't forget teaching them how to have their lives revolve around dominant male figures.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/04/no-regrets-peter-jackson-says-goodbye-to-middle-earth.html

unbelievable what the hell does this mean? ''And don't forget teaching them how to have their lives revolve around dominant male figures''. what the hell. is it supposed to be funny?

by azriel Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:49 pm

Ha ha, see Petty Smile

Look how we get all stirred up ? Wink

Now, do you really wanna get in a ruck ? Laughing

I fell for that also Figgs Smile

It was an add on by Petty Smile

by Eldorion Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:31 pm

That was Petty's editorializing on how Tauriel has been treated by the script.

Also, this quote is even better for tearing down movie apologist's arguments than PJ's comment last year that he mainly just wanted to make LOTR prequels.

by Eldorion Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:35 pm

Of course, Aragorn was the main character for most of TTT and ROTK, not Frodo, but at least there the split storyline allowed Frodo far more moments to himself than Bilbo has gotten.