Re: Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [2]

by ElendilTheShort Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:39 pm

Tinuviel wrote:New Clip. Thranduil being a major dick for no reason IMO. They've taken his dwarf dislike and magnified by a million compared to the book. Also, apparently in an interview, Lee Pace said Thrany's main objective is to get his jewels, that he literally does not care about ANYONE else.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/elves-vs-dwarves-hobbit-battle-of-five-104171060092.html

yes some BS storyline about white gems and his wife killed at Gundabad with no body left to bury, quite a long way from "long will I tarry......" but wow I guess it is just a valid interpretation.

by malickfan Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:43 pm

Eldorion wrote:Sorry, I was catching up on all the pages I missed while I was at work and wanted to respond to a couple of points in the discussion of TORn and TORC. TORC has always leaned more to the purist side, and like us, not even their pro-PJ contingent has been all that positive about The Hobbit. They're a pretty cool forum; they were the biggest spot for Tolkien discussion when the first two movies came out, and they're currently the third-most active (after TORn and then us). They're also one of the few Tolkien forums to allow political and religious discussion. TORn tends to play it safer, probably because (as was pointed out) they have their relationship with the filmmakers to maintain. I can't really resent them for that, though. TORn plays an important role in the fandom as the go-to spot for most newbies. There used to be several forums that shared this role (including TORC and the LOTR Plaza), but only TORn has stayed at the top of its game in terms of branding, search-engine optimization, and having a high profile. But they also function as a launching-point for a lot of Tolkien fans who later start posting on other forums, including ours. It's only because TORn exists to create a mainstream that we're able to have our whole purist counter-culture thing going on in anyway.

And really, it's not that hard to criticize the movies and get away with it so long as you're not an asshole. Sure, TORn has a stricter definition of asshole that I tend to like, but most Tolkien forums are like that. Yes, they tend to come down harder on purists, but generally speaking you just have to get used to their posting culture (which tends to value not rocking the boat too much in any direction) and either learn to roll with it or just move on to somewhere that suits your preferences better. But I'm really sick of the incessant insults towards people who post on TORn. We wouldn't tolerate that shit if it was being said about people on here, and we shouldn't tolerate it when it's being said about people on another forum, especially not one that so many of us visit.

Well said Eldo, I often post before I think things through, and whilst I wouldn't classify myself as an asshole (and I hope none of you guys would) I have been guilty of playing the 'TORn are a bunch of sheep card' sometimes which isn't neither entirely accurate, nor very fair, I still post there occasionally, and whilst I may not entirely agree with the posting culture there, I can't blame the sites staff for running things the way they consider most efficient, admittedly I'm not a strongly opinionated person (my critical posts about The Hobbit veer more towards the apathetic and sarcastic side of things) so I haven't personally run into any issues (in fact in my experience, posters on TORn have generally been quite pleasant people, the main 'sin' many of them imo is simply enthusiasm, and a desire to express that enthusiasm freely with others who share that view, this is something all of us can relate to one way or another) but the repetitive rants about TORn can become a little tiring it doesn't show alot of respect for either forum, I wouldn't expect, nor like strangers on another forum to talk shit about me or my opinions no matter how stupid they may appear (or be) for reasons that arguably border on the silly, at the end of the day these are just films, yes most of us were dissapointed or angry with many of the descions Peter Jackson made, but he is simply doing his job in the manner he thinks is best. It is not my place to tell him what to do, but I certainly enjoy my right to voice my opinions about it freely, as do the people who like these films, either here or on TORn.

It's not worth the hassle getting too worked up about things, or taking things personally, this whole unplesantness will soon be behind us I simply lack the enthusiam at this point to get seriously annoyed by any of it, it's much more fun to simply be sarcastic.

I stress these are simply my own personal views (which more likely than not will change tommorow), not directed at Anyone on this Forum, I have really enjoyed my time posting here, and respect and enjoy sharing and voicing my opinions with all of you. For me personally, it's not worth the hassle getting too worked up about things, or taking things personally, this whole unplesantness will soon be behind us I simply lack the enthusiasm at this point to get seriously annoyed by any of it, it's much more fun to simply be sarcastic.

Thank you Eldo for yet again posting such a considered, mature post, it's always interested to debate things with you.

Of course I say all of this now, after watching BOTFA I may feel very differently Evil or Very Mad

For the record I had limited conversation with BN, but I didn't really agree with his opinions, or the often confrontational way he voiced them

by malickfan Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:47 pm

ElendilTheShort wrote:
Tinuviel wrote:New Clip. Thranduil being a major dick for no reason IMO. They've taken his dwarf dislike and magnified by a million compared to the book. Also, apparently in an interview, Lee Pace said Thrany's main objective is to get his jewels, that he literally does not care about ANYONE else.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/elves-vs-dwarves-hobbit-battle-of-five-104171060092.html

yes some BS storyline about white gems and his wife killed at Gundabad with no body left to bury, quite a long way from "long will I tarry......" but wow I guess it is just a valid interpretation.

Maybe it's a reference to Thingol/The Nauglamir stuff in the Sil? It's clear in the drafts of The Hobbit, The Elvenking was very closely inspired by Thingol (I'm not sure, but I think the 1930 version of the Silmarillion was composed more or less at the same time as the later draft chapters of The Hobbit). Elthir where are you?

Don't get me wrong it's not something that really interests me (Thrandypants in the films, has come across as a bit of a prima donna at times) but Thranduil's backstory is sketchy at best so I suppose it gives Pace more material to work with.

by Tinuviel Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:55 pm

From what I know, The Hobbit was not part of the Silmarillion legendarium until Tolkien wrote LOTR, and then he had to revise his original outline as a result. I'm wondering if Boyens simply saw a chance to sneak in a plot point from the Sil as opposed to it naturally being there. She does that a lot.

by malickfan Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:10 pm

Tinuviel wrote:From what I know, The Hobbit was not part of the Silmarillion legendarium until Tolkien wrote LOTR, and then he had to revise his original outline as a result. I'm wondering if Boyens simply saw a chance to sneak in a plot point from the Sil as opposed to it naturally being there. She does that a lot.

It's kinda hard to say, in The History Of The Hobbit, John D Rateliff makes a very convincing case for Tolkien at least borrowing rather heavily from The Silmarillion drafts-in one of the early drafts of 'An Unexpected Party', Beren and Luthien are namechecked for instance, I have a copy of the book (its fascinaitng, but very long...) but I'm not really familiar enough with it to confirm my suspicions.

I wouldn't be surprised in Boyens did sneak in a reference, she is a fan after all. Though she did mention in an interview:

I'll be 80-something. I'll be 80 and somebody else will be doing it. That was really hard I have to say, that I couldn't go back there. [There are] extraordinary pieces of writing, extraordinary pieces of the puzzle in The Silmarillion. And we couldn't go near it. I haven't read it for 25 years. I just can't afford to have it in my head because we don't have any of the rights. And also it will just break my heart. I had to let it go.

http://movieline.com/2012/12/18/philippa-boyens-interview-the-hobbit-the-silmarillion/

Maybe she just checked the wiki...

by Ringdrotten Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:12 pm

"I just can't afford to have it in my head because we don't have any of the rights. And also it will just break my heart. I had to let it go."

Pretty lame excuse, considering the first LotR film was released 13 years ago. She couldn't afford to have it in head head the 12 years before that either? What was her excuse then?

by malickfan Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:18 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:"I just can't afford to have it in my head because we don't have any of the rights. And also it will just break my heart. I had to let it go."

Pretty lame excuse, considering the first LotR film was released 13 years ago. She couldn't afford to have it in head head the 12 years before that either? What was her excuse then?

Good point Laughing

Peter Jackson admitted in an interview he didn't read Lord of The Rings after his initial reading until he considered making the film:

http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/interviews/peterjackson2/

And I thought fantasy, a film with huge cities, creatures, battles -- things that up to now really been impossible to show on film. And The Lord of the Rings came into my mind. It had been nearly 20 years since I had read the book, so I immediately read it again. In fact, I still had my same old copy on the shelf.

It's taking things out of context a bit, but you do start to question their motives a bit, then again on such a huge project when Changes were necessary it might have been a good thing he wasn't overly familiar with the material-easier to make changes, fresher in the mind I suppose Shrugging

Yeah, I'm making their excuses for them, but it wouldn't help to have a hardcore fan at the helm-look how the Battlefield Earth film turned out!

by Bluebottle Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:21 pm

It also puts into context all those comments by journalists making him out to be some great Tolkien fan. His affiliaiton with Middle Earth seems very much an opportunist one to me, rather than one of love of the subject matter.

by malickfan Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Bluebottle wrote:It also puts into context all those comments by journalists making him out to be some great Tolkien fan. His affiliaiton with Middle Earth seems very much an opportunist one to me, rather than one of love of the subject matter.

Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [2] - Page 35 E705cc63fc112a77ac0492692772853a9c0ca831ff90115706d57625218c5320

It was probably a bit of both to be fair, you can't fault him for taking the opportunity, I'd rather we got his version than none at all, I wouldn't be here if he hadn't.

by Mrs Figg Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:50 pm

I am reading ROTK at the moment, and it makes me realize that when PJ gets it right there are a few scenes that he improves on the book imo. such as Pippin and Beregond on the battlements watching the White Rider rescue Faramir from the Nazgul, from a great distance away. PJ puts us right there beside Gandalf. Its probably my favourite sequence in any film I have ever seen and I never want it to end. I love you

It gets me every time.

by Ringdrotten Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:55 pm

While I usually agree with you on the LotR trilogy, figg, I got to say I loved that Tolkien included a character such as Beregond. Through Beregond we got to know the soldiers, the "ordinary guys", and how proud they were to serve the likes of Faramir. His part was brief, and still it added so much to the story.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:59 pm

It makes no sense for Gandalf to take Pippin- it just makes it more dangerous for everyone involved.
Also I miss Beregrond and his son, I in particular miss the scene on the wall when the Nazgul fly overhead and Pippin's simple hobbit optimism helps Beregond overcome the despair, and where they go down to the gates and watch the reinforcements arrive from the other parts of Gondor. It does so much in a short scene- it explains Gondor is a kingdom, not one city on a dusty plain, it gives a sense of hope that is dampened by the fact its clearly 'not enough' or 'not as many as hoped or expected' and it would have introduced Forlong the fat and Prince Imrahil ect into the narrative as the Captains of Gondor. And that would also have helped make Denehtor look less like the crazy dictator of Gondor.

Also everything Ringdrotten just said.

by Mrs Figg Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:02 pm

oh I agree with you about Beregond and I love the bits with him and his son. I just meant the White Rider scenes with Gandalf.

by azriel Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:08 pm

I cant help having a soft spot for the eagles. I like how theyve been reproduced, their claws, the way the wind lifts their feathers Smile

I also liked the Gandalf rescue bit, just looked good with the ray of bright light piercing the winged serpents Laughing

by Ringdrotten Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:08 pm

Misunderstood, sorry Embarassed

by Mrs Figg Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:21 pm

I also love the way Peejers did Dunharrow, it exactly conjures up in my mind the atmosphere of the place in the book, indeed its brilliant right up to the moment that Gimli disappears through the door. Once Gimli runs through that door it goes a bit silly and loses the power of the book pretty much totally. But Dunharrow itself is fantastic. Love Elrond, love Theoden, love Eowyn, love the setting and the spooky Cliff, the unease of the Rohirrim, brilliantly done.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:37 pm

Except Elrond replacing the Grey Company sucks- all Aragons Rangers turning up- thats something- Elrond- thats stupid. Only giving Aragorn his sword at this point, in fact the whole reluctant king thing is such a cliche, it sucks too.
The parting with Eowyn is rubbish as well as they have nothing to say to each other, in the book this is the crescendo moment, where Eowyn all but declares she loves him and Aragorn has to openly refute her love knowing the pain that will cause her on top of him leaving her behind, but PJ shot that one before Helms Deep far to early in a context of far less significance and weight.

Having the prophecy poem in the EE helps for building up Dunharrow butit makes no sense Legolas mysteriously knows all about Dunharrow- why is it not at least Eomer or someone local giving this information? And the entrance bit is done well enough but without the grey company not as well as the book and everything once they enter the Paths of the Dead is like a bad funfair ghost house.

by **Orwell** Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:41 pm

I'm with Mrs Figg about the occasions when PJ gets things right. It's usually when he sticks most closely to canon. I like the Gandalf rescuing Faramir scene - but gawd I hate Osgiliath being only a hundred metres or so from Minas Tirith! Mad

I miss Beregond and son too. Sad

by Tinuviel Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:56 pm

Maybe they used that for Bard and Bain in TH? Re-wrote Beregond as Bard?

by bungobaggins Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:00 pm

I thought the eagle rescue scene in AUJ was executed really well.

by Eldorion Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:13 pm

malickfan wrote:Thank you Eldo for yet again posting such a considered, mature post, it's always interested to debate things with you.

That's very kind of you, Malick. Embarassed

I'm pleased that you found my post worthy of reading and considering. Rest assured that no matter how I feel about BOFA, I'll still be poised and ready to nag people for what I perceive as over-negativity about TORn or other fans. Wink

Forest Shepherd wrote:(And thanks Figgy, you make me ashamed of my contentiousness with Eldo. )

Why do you have to go and be so decent before I get the chance to use any of the comebacks I was thinking up while at work? Mad

{{{I

all you guys}}}

by Mrs Figg Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:19 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Except Elrond replacing the Grey Company sucks- all Aragons Rangers turning up- thats something- Elrond- thats stupid. Only giving Aragorn his sword at this point, in fact the whole reluctant king thing is such a cliche, it sucks too.
The parting with Eowyn is rubbish as well as they have nothing to say to each other, in the book this is the crescendo moment, where Eowyn all but declares she loves him and Aragorn has to openly refute her love knowing the pain that will cause her on top of him leaving her behind, but PJ shot that one before Helms Deep far to early in a context of far less significance and weight.

Having the prophecy poem in the EE helps for building up Dunharrow butit makes no sense Legolas mysteriously knows all about Dunharrow- why is it not at least Eomer or someone local giving this information? And the entrance bit is done well enough but without the grey company not as well as the book and everything once they enter the Paths of the Dead is like a bad funfair ghost house.

nope. its all brilliant. Very Happy

Elrond is magnificent in that scene, and the Exchange between theoden and Elrond is one of my favorite bits of acting. What do you mean they have nothing to say, its very similar to the book only Eowyn doesnt kneel before Aragorn and beg him to not go. PJ did not shoot it all in Helms Deep, its split into two parts and the final parting when he rejects her is where it should be, at Dunharrow. and the Helms Deep bit is only in the EE that is where she kind of declares her feelings but Aragorn doesnt reply and we dont know his feelings until she asks him not to go in Dunharrow. Its perfectly logical stuff.
As for your last sentences, it doesnt make any sense.It doesnt matter if Legoas knows about the legend, its the sort of thing Elves know. seeing as theres no Dunedain its perfectly logical.

by parzival Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:50 am

I had major problems with the changes in the films. But I had to overlook them in the end because the films were somewhat revolutionary. The idea that fantasy films could be nominated for best picture three years in a row, and winning in it's third year, was unheard of. The performances were uniformly solid, the score was fantastic, and everything from makeup to costumes to visual effects were in top form. Once I accepted that those films were imperfect adaptations but had so much else to offer I just had to give in. And honestly I think the story, while altered, is conveyed with a certain integrity.

The problem I have with The Hobbit is that the movies kind of suck. And if the attempt to make these films again revolutionary was via visual effects or high frame rate technology I would say that was a colossal misfire. IMO the high frame rate is utterly wrong for a fantasy film about Middle Earth, and the technology doesn't feel any more revolutionary than many other blockbuster films. Where these films needed to succeed was to capture the spirit of the book. The heart. And I don't think they cared as much about that as connecting the films to LOTR, which makes me really, really sad.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:02 am

Eldorion wrote:
Forest Shepherd wrote:(And thanks Figgy, you make me ashamed of my contentiousness with Eldo. )

Why do you have to go and be so decent before I get the chance to use any of the comebacks I was thinking up while at work?

{{{I all you guys}}}

Haha, too quick for you!
{{{Of course we all I love you

you too Eldo, you book-wormy Anime-lover!}}}

by halfwise Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:46 am

parzival wrote:I had major problems with the changes in the films. But I had to overlook them in the end because the films were somewhat revolutionary. The idea that fantasy films could be nominated for best picture three years in a row, and winning in it's third year, was unheard of. The performances were uniformly solid, the score was fantastic, and everything from makeup to costumes to visual effects were in top form. Once I accepted that those films were imperfect adaptations but had so much else to offer I just had to give in. And honestly I think the story, while altered, is conveyed with a certain integrity.

The problem I have with The Hobbit is that the movies kind of suck. And if the attempt to make these films again revolutionary was via visual effects or high frame rate technology I would say that was a colossal misfire. IMO the high frame rate is utterly wrong for a fantasy film about Middle Earth, and the technology doesn't feel any more revolutionary than many other blockbuster films. Where these films needed to succeed was to capture the spirit of the book. The heart. And I don't think they cared as much about that as connecting the films to LOTR, which makes me really, really sad.

You just nailed it. All of it. Nothing left to say. We may as well roll up this forum and move on....