Doctor Who [9]
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by malickfan Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:27 pm
I though the last quote by the Doctor
- Spoiler:
- about 'goodness has nothing to do with it'
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:10 pm
I agree entirely with you both Amarie and Malick.
- Spoiler:
- Its clear now we have been seeing a very well planed character development of the Doctor and Clara and their relationship and roles to each other played out here.
Last week Clara asked if it was like an addiction. This week she basically got high on it.
Malick I would also put alongside the Doctors last words the bit where he says he takes those sort of decisions so others don't have to. Also she is lying like the Doctor now too, only she is also lying for personnel reasons- to the Doctor about Danny and to Danny about travelling in the TARDIS still.
In the second episode the Doctor introduced Clara, as not his assistant, and she responded she was his carer, provoking "She's cares so I don't have to,' from the Doctor. And thats basically the companions value to the Doctor, that they care and show the compassion Time Lords often lack. They are the moral compass, and none so more than Cara originally.
But now?
Interestingly the new writer, Matheson got the two 'lite' episodes to do and produced a couple of blinders. Last weeks was the companion lite episode, and he locked Clara away in a train compartment, and this week was the Doctor lite episode, and he locked the Doctor away in the TARDIS for it. But I thought he did a very good job of disguising the fact both were this series lite ones.
Hopefully Moffat gets him back as a series regular, he deserves to be.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Bluebottle Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:31 pm
Interesting thoughts. 
It's getting to be a bit of a theme though.
Rose, Amy and now Clara.
What's wrong with normal, as in not "the most important person in the Universe", people?
It's getting to be a bit of a theme though.
Rose, Amy and now Clara. What's wrong with normal, as in not "the most important person in the Universe", people?
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:07 pm
All NuWHo companions are that way. You missed out Martha saving everyone from the Master in the year that never was. And Donna saving everyone and having her name sung across the universe as a saviour of worlds.
What is important and more interesting this time is that the issues are being explored almost exclusively through the prism of the characters and their lives.
What is important and more interesting this time is that the issues are being explored almost exclusively through the prism of the characters and their lives.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:46 pm
I was wondering what he meant by his last words 'goodness had nothing to do with it' goodness as in being good at something or morally good?
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:08 pm
I would go with morally
- Spoiler:
- when taken with his early statement about making those sort of choices so other dont have too. He knows that he has to make choices that will mean some live and some die, and he hate himself for it and has to bear the burden of everyone, but he has always convinced himself that he makes people better people through his example, that he inspires, as Robin said to him, good in others. But what he saw in Clara was her successfully taking on board and carrying out the other side of himself that he doesn't like.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:11 pm
- Spoiler:
- although it was the Doctor who killed the monsters and not clara. All she did was use her brains to save him and the Tardis. I dont like the guilt trip he is putting on her.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:30 pm
- Spoiler:
- I think it was more how she reacted overall given people died when she was in charge. She did well, as the Doctor said, exceptionally well, but she was buoyed up more by winning than she was feeling anything for the dead who didnt make it. And I dont think he liked seeing that aspect of himself reflected back in Clara of all people.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Orwell Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:13 am
The best this series? 
I'm looking forward to watching them all again after the series is finished. I wonder what re-viewing this whole series will bring. This was definitely all cream. Loved it. 
I'm looking forward to watching them all again after the series is finished. I wonder what re-viewing this whole series will bring. This was definitely all cream. Loved it. - Spoiler:
- Not happy with the possible guilt trip, Mrs Figg... I think that means you are now sucked in and personally involved. Mixed feelings about the Doc - possibly not liking certain aspects of him? Though, I thought the Doc was more troubled by learning something more of Clara than trying to guilt trip her. Feeling protective of Clara...? Yes, methinks you've been sucked in right and good! The mix of humour, adventure, moral ambiguity and tension was nigh on perfect in this one. That perpetually negative arsehole bloke lived when better people didn't. That's life, I guess. Loved "T'hing"...
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:27 pm
- Spoiler:
- I dont buy it. Its like he is saying dont get ideas above your pay grade, plus its a bit hypocritical seeig is Clara is 'the one who cares so he doesnt have to', she does care, she cares about what he thinks and has been disappointed because he hasnt called her 'special' rather like Courtney the last episode. She looked kind of perplexed by him seeing as she has already sacrificed her timelines for him, its a bit odd. what kind of lesson could he be giving her? she is treating Danny worse than the Doctor at the moment. The only signs of her becoming somewhat tainted by being with the Doctor is fib telling, hardly big potatos.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Forest Shepherd Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:29 pm
Mrs Figg wrote:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
![Doctor Who [9] - Page 23 Small_Potatoes_straight](https://2img.net/h/toybook.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Small_Potatoes_straight.jpg)
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:05 pm
I think its much more than that Figg.
- Spoiler:
- Looking back over this series so far-
Deep Breath- Clara is uncertain about the Doctor. He abandons her and leaves her to cope on her own. She does and the Doctors response? -
"Sorry. Actually no I'm not sorry. You are brilliant on adrenalin."
You could call this stage one- Clara gets dropped in the deep end and learns to swim.
But it shakes her so much she is ready to quit.
Into the Dalek- The Doctor returns to Clara to ask her if he is a good man before daring to try to take on the task of dealing with a good Dalek. He seeks her reassurance, but she can't give it.
During the adventure it is Clara who sees what the lesson is- not that Daleks are inherently evil but that its possible to have such a thing as a good Dalek.
The Doctor is however ruthless in dealing with the circumstances, not mourning or apoligising for the dead, even cracking a bad taste joke over it. In turn its this dark side to him that the Dalek cottons onto, the bit of himself he doesn't like and hopes never takes him over (which it tends to do more and more when he travels alone)- "No, no, no. You must see more than that. There must be more than that. There must be more than that. Please!"
Despite the Doctor not wanting to recognise that himself he uses it all the time and it is what the Dalek sees in him, concluding that the Doctor is a 'good Dalek'.
Clara at the end finally states her view on him, that he is not a good man, but he tries to be and thats what counts.
Robot of Sherwood- once more the Doctor leaves Clara to deal with the bad guy, in this case because his ego leaves him bickering with Robin. At the start of the episode the Doctor asks Clara "When did you start believing in impossible heroes?" and her response is just to look at him. By the end of the episode Robin tells the Doctor Clara sees him as her hero. To which the Doctor responds, "I'm not a hero." Robin points out neither is he, but if they try ti act like one, play the part, maybe they will inspire others to good. This is the crux of how the Doctor has always justified his own actions to himself. He makes people better, its why he calls himself the Doctor.
Listen- the Doctor is obsessed with answering a question plaguing him from his childhood- when he knows there was something under his bed that grabbed his foot. It of course turns out to have been Clara, but here she takes on the Doctor role to the Doctor. Not only ministering to him and soothing his fears but repeating back his own adult words to him about understanding fear.
Time Heist - we learn what specifically the Doctor hates about himself in his rant against the Architect once he realises he is the Architect.
"I know one thing about the Architect, something I have known since the very start. I hate him! He is overbearing. He is manipulative. Likes to think he is very clever. I hate the Architect!"
These are all things about himself that he does all the time for a greater good. But he knows full well they are not good or fair in themselves. They are arrogant, cold and ruthless.
Clara displays all three of these things in Flatline acting as the Doctor.
Caretaker- Danny warns Clara specifically about the sort of man the Doctor is- someone who can make you do things you never believed possible of, until they push you too far.
Kill the Moon- Clara gets a full on taste as to what it is like to be in the Doctors shoes and take on his decisions. And it understandability freaks her out and she vows to quit.
Mummy on the Orient Express- Clara is on her farewell trip, but she is clearly also not wanting a quiet holiday. "Clara you actually sound like you want this to be a thing. Do you?"
And at episode end Clara asks directly if what the Doctor does everyday is 'like an addiction'.
He replies that you only know if something is an addiction when you try to give it up, and he of course has never tried.
Nor it turns out can Clara when confronted with quitting. She lies to Danny, lies to the Doctor- displaying another of his personality traits, ad keeps on adventuring in the TARDIS.
Flatline- Clara takes on the role of Doctor when he is trapped. She sees things from his perspective and puts together everything that has happened to her so far, lying to give hope when she doesnt know if there is any, keeping going and not stopping to mourn when people die, and at the end she is euphoric at having saved those she did, winning 'on balance' and at being a 'good Doctor.'
But as she is displaying all the traits about himself that the Doctor doesn't like, even if they are necessary, he concludes she was an exceptional Doctor- but that goodness had nothing to do with it. It didn't she is acting like he would, and he knows goodness has nothing to do with those sort of choices. Remember his words at the end of Mummy- "Sometimes there are only bad choices. But you still have to choose." That is what he does, "So others don't have to.'
But now Clara is too.
He is clearly worried by what Cara is becoming because of him.
And with the Missy ending, and all but conformation that Missy made the phone call that gave Cara the TARDIS number and set her off with 11 I am confident all this is playing into the series end game.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:23 pm
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:10 pm
Well this made me laugh.
Scene from the last episode where Danny phones Clara.
Here is the crucial moment with subtitles on the BBC-IPlayer-
![Doctor Who [9] - Page 23 UxTSw6C_zpsbb5f41d9](https://2img.net/h/i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/pettytyrant101/uxTSw6C_zpsbb5f41d9.jpg)
Unfortunately viewers in America using subtitles got this from BBC America-
![Doctor Who [9] - Page 23 EFEECDF4-E2B8-4067-B767-77B9FC4308EC_zpsce502c4a](https://2img.net/h/i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/pettytyrant101/EFEECDF4-E2B8-4067-B767-77B9FC4308EC_zpsce502c4a.jpg)
Is it because he is black?!
Scene from the last episode where Danny phones Clara.
Here is the crucial moment with subtitles on the BBC-IPlayer-
Unfortunately viewers in America using subtitles got this from BBC America-
Is it because he is black?!
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by azriel Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:56 pm
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If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got
![Doctor Who [9] - Page 23 Th_cat%20blink_zpsesmrb2cl](https://2img.net/h/i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y474/azriel59/th_cat%20blink_zpsesmrb2cl.gif)
![Doctor Who [9] - Page 23 Jean-b11](https://i.servimg.com/u/f65/17/86/44/91/th/jean-b11.jpg)
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:03 pm
- Spoiler:
- nah thats just hokum. The Doctor is essentially a good guy, a good guy who cares deeply about the silly little human beings, he may occasionally have to sacrifice a couple but deep down it hurts him, it would fly in the face of all i believe about him if he wasnt good. obviously being his assistant means you get to or be forced into his shoes now and again, seeing as its mostly Dangerous stuff they face. Clara has picked up some of his faults namely lying through her teeth, but this only started in NuWho during Smiths era, he was a horrible cynical lier to Amy and Rory and it seems that he doesnt like Clara exhibiting the fibster mode, but thats it clara is pretty much Miss Perfect, she doesnt have faults, thats one of the reasons I used to find her so dull, but now she is a real person, just confused because he is getting uppity when she demands kudos for a job well done.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:21 pm
- Spoiler:
- I never said he doesn't care- but taking on the burden of having to sometimes choose, to pick between only bad choices, to make the sacrifice of others for the greater good is what he does, as he says, so others dont have to. His companions aren't supposed to have to make those calls, or act that way, thats not the function they serve for him, let alone doing it with so much relish and ease.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 am
- Spoiler:
- if thats not their function how come he forced her to be Him in 'Kill the Moon? he forced her to make an epic sacrifice, whole of humanity or moon Dragon egg. thats the opposite of what you just said. How come he was unable to save himself without her? I dont think she was exactly slavering at the mouth when she saved the Tardis, she was using her brains after being a magicians apprentice for so long she was thinking out of the box and a good job too or he would have been dead. So for the Doctor to suddenly not like what he has made her is a bit rich. Seems like he is blaming her for being like him which is not fair.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:12 am
- Spoiler:
- He is not blaming her at all. He is blaming himself. He is seeing himself reflected back in his companions. "My friends have always been the best of me"- 11. Is Clara reflecting back the best of him? Or all the stuff he doesn't like but does through necessity?
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:19 am
I think its a very interesting area they are exploring character wise.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Mrs Figg Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:50 am
I think he will discard her if she starts to become too like him, the more competent she gets, the more she becomes manipulative and a liar the more he will want to find another assistant he can use as his moral sounding board. if clara becomes like a female Doctor then the relationship is doomed. its not like Rose and Tennant where they were equals, this is different, Capaldis Doctor needs to keep his distance and keep his status as top dog.
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:53 am
I honestly have no idea where it will go- thats part of the excitement of this series, its new and fresh, I dont know. I dont even know if I am right in how I am reading events so far. Its my take on them so far. But I amn't half looking forward to finding out!
As someone on Gallifrey Base noted about this series- more than 700 episodes in and they are still coming up with completely new ideas.
Thats not bad going!
As someone on Gallifrey Base noted about this series- more than 700 episodes in and they are still coming up with completely new ideas.
Thats not bad going!
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Orwell Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:30 am
Mrs Figg wrote:I think he will discard her if she starts to become too like him....
NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....
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Re: Doctor Who [9]
by Forest Shepherd Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:38 am
good.
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