Doctor Who [7]

well to be honest I never noticed the crusade, but I have noticed Moffats women characters are what I describe as sexy pantomime dames, vivid and yet regressive and clingy. On the surface they seem to be breaking boundaries, Black chicks kicking ass, but underneath all the fast talking they are old fashioned stereotypes from the pen of a man who doesnt really like women all that much. It depends on who does the writing, Gaiman wrote the episode with TARDIS lady and she was a female character I liked, and the shy Medium lady in 'Hide' writen by Neil Cross. They have some psychological depth.

Moffat is the showrunner however- he has a hand in every episode, just as RTD did before him. And as Captain of the ship he sets the course and direction and tone of the series too.
And as a result prominent female characters feature heavily in his era of Who, and I would in fact say they largely dominate the show outside of the Doctor.

They have some psychological depth.- Mrs Figg

So did Sally Sparrow, Madame Pompadour, Nancy in the Empty Child- all episodes you have previously said you liked, all Moffat female characters dominating the stories.

Actually you are wrong. I have Never said I liked Mme Pompadour or Nancy, you made that up.
I have only ever said I like Sally and that was due to the charasmatic acting skills of Carey. also ALL these episodes were firmly under the control of RTD at that time, so HE had the final say and had impact on the characters you mention, later on when Moffat had free reign things got dramatically worse for female characters and they steadily became less real and sympathetic.

Sarah Jane (?) had a spin off at some stage. Maybe one of your better realized females could have a spin off, Mrs Figg. {{{Might get me watching Who again even  }}}.

well if Donna had her own spin off I would love to watch it.

I have never heard you say a bad word about Empty Child Mrs Figg- in fact I distinctively remember you asking very early on the name of the Eccy episode set in WW2 because you liked it. So I certainly did not make it up at all.

Orwell- The Sarah Jane Adventures.

An idea is brewing, Mrs Figg. An experiment maybe. Not Donna though. A female Dr Who. I might do a litle research first though... May even try a bit of Fanfic... mmm...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have never heard you say a bad word about Empty Child Mrs Figg- in fact I distinctively remember you asking very early on the name of the Eccy episode set in WW2 because you liked it. So I certainly did not make it up at all.

Loved that episode. Scared the bejeezus out of me.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Orwell- The Sarah Jane Adventures.

I just knew it!  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have never heard you say a bad word about Empty Child Mrs Figg- in fact I distinctively remember you asking very early on the name of the Eccy episode set in WW2 because you liked it. So I certainly did not make it up at all.

Orwell- The Sarah Jane Adventures.

nope I never said that. I said I liked Captain Jack. never mentioned the female character which is what your original point was so dont try to twist things round.

I am twisitng nothing, my original point was only that some episodes you appeared to have enjoyed had Moffat written female characters as the main character in the story.
And I have never heard you complain before about the female roles in those episodes.

 

 bad feeling about this..

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I am twisitng nothing, my original point was only that some episodes you appeared to have enjoyed had Moffat written female characters as the main character in the story.
And I have never heard you complain before about the female roles in those episodes.

I am not getting sucked into this shit. My comments were directed to Dave who asked the question.

 i knew it  

Amarië wrote:

 

It now seems clear to me that Moffat has had something of a crusade going.

So glad you are picking up on that, Dave. It is good I suppose, and I guess I shouldn't complain but it seems a bit forced.

Mrs Figg wrote:well to be honest I never noticed the crusade, but I have noticed Moffats women characters are what I describe as sexy pantomime dames, vivid and yet regressive and clingy. On the surface they seem to be breaking boundaries, Black chicks kicking ass, but underneath all the fast talking they are old fashioned stereotypes from the pen of a man who doesnt really like women all that much. It depends on who does the writing, Gaiman wrote the episode with TARDIS lady and she was a female character I liked, and the shy Medium lady in 'Hide' writen by Neil Cross. They have some psychological depth.

This is what I'm hoping to understand better. There are some interesting characters among the women, but if they seem forced or stereotypical to women, I'd be interested in the reasons.  Could either of you give examples?

I liked the Tardis lady as well. I can't really think of a male character who is half as interesting besides the Doctor of course. Can anybody else?

 I knew it   - Orwell

Could it be any other way? {{{Would you have it any other way?}}}


This is what I'm hoping to understand better. There are some interesting characters among the women, but if they seem forced or stereotypical to women, I'd be interested in the reasons. Could either of you give examples?
I liked the Tardis lady as well. I can't really think of a male character who is half as interesting besides the Doctor of course. Can anybody else?- David


I shall bow out of this one for a bit and allow the ladies to discuss the matter with you David. As I agree wholeheartedly with your last observation, 'I can't really think of a male character who is half as interesting.' (Although I may have given consideration to Rory, but outside the main crew I do agree), so I will be happy to just read the answers.

It is very PC. Modern, perhaps. To a point where it gets weird.

What truly is the what made me raise an eyebrow (or two) was the gay couple/people shoehorned in with an arrow pointing at them saying "And now: Give a warm PC applause for this week's HOMOSEXUAL!"
Culminating with this from 'A good man goes to war':

Perhaps no real need for spoiler tag, but still...:

I still don't know what to make of that... Is it funny?

and then:

I loved Captain Jack and 9th. The future looked bright and inclusive and then we get weird things like the that... I don't get it.

It might be interesting to see all episodes again to give some thought to the females and side characters and such, but I would have to watch a LOT of Amy as well and it's not worth it.

Let's see what Dave brings to the table and we'll see what comes to mind.

I don't know how germane it is to this discudsion, but why is it that homosexual characters are so homosexual. They always seem over-the-top omehow. Why can't they be depicted as normal people? It always seems so theatrical and/or self-conscious.

I liked the dynamic between Captain Jack and Eccleston, Eccky was a bit jealous of Jack's glamorous appearance and the flirty banter with Rose, but it was subtle, and therefore funny and touching. The Doctor just gave hints, it was never too forced. When Smith gets and his crew get involved with flirtation between themselves, it gets obvious and arch. The humour is- drum roll- now you laugh- ooh look Rory/Amy/River/Doctor look how sweet they are??
The female characters in the RTD era have a either warmth about them. The cat lady nun, or are chillingly eerie, the palm reader in the Turn left/right episode. Theres Donna's mum, a realistic and quite ambiguous portrayal of an over-critical mother. I also like Jackie, Roses mum, an ordinary working class person just worried about her daughter disappearing with an alien. Moffat seems not to like 'ordinary' women very much, his women have to have added pc extras or 'interesting' appearances, they are either Black, Asian, lesbian, green, its as if he is afraid we would be bored by an ordinary middle aged housewife like Donna. But Donna is made extraordinary by her character, not by her pc credentials, her struggle and delight are so much more heartwarming because people can identify with her.

Amarië wrote:It might be interesting to see all episodes again to give some thought to the females and side characters and such, but I would have to watch a LOT of Amy as well and it's not worth it.  

Let's see what Dave brings to the table and we'll see what comes to mind.

Just so you understand, I'm bringing things to the table tentatively for now. I've been intentionally just been watching each episode for fun, and I still have more to see. This is the first time I've let myself start to look a little deeper, so I'm still being careful to keep an open mind, which is why I appreciate everybody's thoughts.

As far as the scene you quoted, I flagged that in my mind when I saw it too. At first I thought it might be an inside joke about how homosexuals perceive they're perceived. If it had been American writers I might have thought it was a jab at the old Army policy of"Dont Ask, Don't Tell".  But reading it through just now, I'm more inclined to think it was just an writer's sloppy inside joke. Conversation going something like"

"OK, we've blocked out all these characters, now we've got to name them. What do ya wanna call the Gay married marines?"
"Why do they need names? They're just the Thin Fat Gay Married Anglican Marines!"
"[chuckle] Hey, I like that! I'm gonna use it!"

But yeah, Wasn't the Silurian woman in the same episode in some kind of a cross species lesbian relationship? My personal feeling is that if you're going to try to tackle social issues such as various prejudices (and I do think that's appropriate in these shows) you shouldn't just shove characters in with a "homosexual" sign hanging around their neck.  

Although I didn't like the episode, I thought it worked better in Closing Time when  people kept mistaking the Dr and Craig for a gay couple with a child. It was done with the sort of humor that allows people to look into their own perceptions as they choose without having it thrown at them.  

Night Terrors was another one I didn't like much at all, but I didn't really mind that it was a boy who was putting people into a doll house.  Bending the gender rolls is fine, it just deserves to be handled better I think.

Orwell wrote:I don't know how germane it is to this discudsion, but why is it that homosexual characters are so homosexual. They always seem over-the-top omehow. Why can't they be depicted as normal people? It always seems so theatrical and/or self-conscious.  

I wonder the overthetop-ness too. Of course I know it would be challenging to write an openly homosexual character and avoid the stereotypes, but I think there are a lot of examples of characters who were written gay but not labeled and nobody ever guessed. All the excitement whe JKR mentioned that Dumbledore was homosexual for example. Or even better is the scene in Ben Hur where Charleton Heston and Messala are old childhood friends who meet again for the first time in years. Gore Vidal says he wrote that scene as two gay lovers reuniting with all the awkwardness of an ex-relationship, and everybody on the set was told except Heston! 

Petty, if you don't mind playing research librarian, you should find that scene for us. It's priceless!

Not going to join in any debates on the women subject but just to point out, as I dont think you have seen the RTD era Dave, it is known as the LGA era too, the lesbian/gay agenda era. The Doctor met more openly homosexual characters of all species in those 4 years than he had in the previous 45.
Even in one of my favourite RTD penned episodes- Midnight- the women he happens to sit down beside has manged in the first three lines of dialogue to get in the fact she is in a same sex relationship but her partner is not there. Ive never met a gay person who feels the need to let you know they are gay immediately upon meeting you, and its sadly a feature of that era that everyone who is gay declares that they are as soon as possible s you are in no doubt.
For me the best written gay character in NuWHo is Carlton from Impossible Astronaut.
Ironically given this aspect of your conversation one of the things leveled at the Moffat era was from the Lesbian/Gay community, complaining that he had dumped that agenda.
Equally when he introduced Madame Vastra and Jenny and the Anglican Marines in that episode some then accused him of pandering to the lesbian/gay community and returning to the RTD years.
I fear there is no winning when you head of Doctor Who!

ps Captain Jack is also a Moffat created character, first appearing in Empty Child.

Ill have a look David, see if I can find it.

Mrs Figg wrote: Moffat seems not to like 'ordinary' women very much, his women have to have added pc extras or 'interesting' appearances, they are either Black, Asian, lesbian, green, its as if he is afraid we would be bored by an ordinary middle aged housewife like Donna. But Donna is made extraordinary by her character, not by her pc credentials, her struggle and delight are so much more heartwarming because people can identify with her.

I really think that puts the finger on what's been bothering me about the male characters as well. It seems that every character has to have a label hanging around their neck.  

It's not that I don't like some of the characters. I liked the Muslim woman God Complex.  Of course that whole episode was a bit preachy and every character stood for something, but they make it so explicit it's distracting.  The sign says "Muslim-Intelligent-Woman". I'll bet that's exactly how they blocked her out in the script.

I'll have to watch Captain Jack again. Petty gave me one of those episodes last year when Zeppelins were bombing London. Is that a good episode to show what you're talking about?

The Jack episode you have is Empty Child/Doctor Dances- the Moffat two parter that has been mentioned in discussion. Its a good example of RTD's overall Gay/Lesbian promotion agenda- just as MOffats writing has always centred around female characters, RTD's had centred around gay issues (previous to Who his break through series was 'Queer as Folk').
Those epiosdes are also good for observing Rose and how she treats releationships and people who arent the Doctor (at this point in the series her boyfriend Mickey is still back on earth, she left him behind, but he is still her boyfriend as in the RTD era she goes back home to her mum every other episode and sees him)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
For me the best written gay character in NuWHo is Carlton from Impossible Astronaut.

That's a good point. Not only didn't it really intrude into the plot, but it pointed towards the historical issues of homosexuals in the J Edgar Hoover FBI days. That's legit.