A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

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Post by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:17 pm

Razz


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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:13 pm

Bluebottle wrote:
“Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived been included he D&D would have grown up to be a Frey written him.”
– Wyman, on the show.. probably.

Shrugging

And now they are apparently casting northern lords for season 6. :facepalm:

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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:15 pm

I just thought I'd point out again that this is how book Stannis reacts to the idea of burning random unbelievers to end a storm..

That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most. “A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”

“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”

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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:54 pm

She narrowed her eyes. “What is our heart’s desire?”
“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood. But what we need is a bad pussy.
— Arianne and Doran Martell

Shocked

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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:55 pm

http://needbadpussy.tumblr.com

It's not as bad as it sounds. Razz

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Post by Eldorion Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:04 pm

What I really want to see is a showdown between Ramsay's 20 good men and Ellaria's 20 bad pussies.
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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:07 pm

Are you sure? Razz

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Post by Eldorion Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:11 pm

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 35 F6HZOrP

Touche.
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Post by Bluebottle Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:28 pm

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 35 Denying_its_existence_game_of_thrones

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:18 pm

A nice little bit here about Stannis' respect for lineage:

' " The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "
" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." '

Not exactly the type to be burning off said daughter...

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Post by malickfan Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:37 am

I still don't have any inclination to start reading/watching this series, just seems too grim and longwinded for my tastes...


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The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)

Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by Mrs Figg Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:03 pm

its not all grim. at least try the tv show. Very Happy season 1 is a bit slow but it gradually gets pretty fantastic.
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Post by Bluebottle Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:39 pm

I get the hesitation, Malick. I was reading the Wheel of Time books when I was 13-14. And I got to around book 7. Then I zoomed out completely, and didn't go back until last year when they were all done. Perhaps that's the way to go with these long series. Razz

I would say give the books go, because they really are something out of the ordinary in the epic fantasy genre, but the waiting for the next book part is always a chore.

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Post by Bluebottle Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:42 pm

Like, I love GRRM to death for his creation, but..

I'll put this simply. If J.R.R.-freakin'-Tolkien could wrap up the first, biggest, and best epic ever in three books, no one else has ANY excuse to do otherwise. I recognize that a lot of authors have a lot of their time and energy invested in their pet worlds, and I also recognize that books about those worlds are often in demand by their fans. I recognize that as a rationalization, not an excuse.

I don't really mind if the scope of your universe is big enough to fit a non-linear and widely variant body of work. Niven's Known Space, Heinlein's Future History, Fiest's Midkemia, these are all pretty large and well-populated universes with a wide range of possibilities. They are all places I don't mind coming back to and visiting from time to time with just enough continuity and familiarity to set the mood. It's these long-running series of books that are either purely or damn-near linear and use largely the same (ever expanding) character set that set me to sneering like Elvis.

Why? You get suckered in, you buy the first couple of books and they look good and you have no idea that the author is never going to stop, never, not even if he has a major stroke and has to type out the next four 700-page installments with his tongue. Meanwhile, you're waiting 6 to 18 months for the next book depending on how big a hack you've chosen and after a while you've forgotten why you gave a shit about any of the heroes or villians. Forget term limits for politicians, what about term limits for a series?

http://harlanellison.com/rants/rt980510.htm

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Post by halfwise Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:49 pm

I didn't realize Harlan Ellison was still kicking!  When was the last time he published any fiction?  I know his big deal was telling young science fiction writers they shouldn't bother to write unless they had a unique idea: to him this was the difference between 'literature' which gets published in literary magazines and is rightfully ignored by the public, and decent science fiction that is worth reading. He may have decided he ran out of unique ideas himself.

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Post by Bluebottle Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:52 pm

That is from 1998. And I'm not sure if it's written by Harlan, or the guy who runs his web site, but it's still damn pertinent. Razz

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Post by halfwise Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:58 pm

It reads like Harlan.

EDIT: but it's not from him. Oh well.

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Post by Bluebottle Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:41 pm

Well, also, one uses the level of technology that is appropriate. The main advantage of having a computer is to be able to go back and change stuff or to re-arrange your paragraphs, which is, from what I've heard, just not your style.

See, that also bothers me. When PCs first started being used by writers, I said "This is not a good idea". Using PCs for doing term papers, or scientific treatises, for lists, for stuff like that, it's fine, but NOT for creative work. Because all I've ever heard, and I've heard this from many many writers, now I'm no longer alone in this philosophy, in saying "Gardez Vous", you know, "Be careful" - what I've heard now is many writers saying yes, it has made them write in a more slovenly fashion. They are not nearly as alert to the fact that they're going to actually have to do the physical labor of changing something. All they know is that if they do it wrong, all they have to do is press a button.

What this means is that we have nothing but long, windy novels that are three times the length that they ought to be. We have trilogies and tetralogies that are idiotic, that are chewing the cud a million times over, and the only thing I've ever heard in aid of using a computer over a typewriter is it makes it easier. You know, "If I get ten pages into my story and I discover that that isn't where the story begins, that it should begin here, all that I have to do is hit the button and it'll just, you know, start me there."

And I think to myself, "You really shouldn't be a writer. You ought to be out on a hillside, planting trees, serving the common weal". Because a writer would KNOW that that wasn't where the story began. You wouldn't have to GO ten pages.

Making it easier, I think, is invidious. It is a really BAD thing. Art is not supposed to be easier! There are a lot of things in life that are supposed to be easier. Ridding the world of heart attacks, making the roads smoother, making old people more comfortable in the winter, but not Art. Art should always be tough. Art should demand something of you. Art should involve foot-pounds of energy being expended. It's not supposed to be easier, and those who want it easier should not be artists. They should be out selling public relations copy.

That's also one of the disadvantages of the Internet, then. It becomes remarkably easy for anybody in the world to become not only a writer, but a publisher, and a salesman...

That's right. When they say "Gee it's an information explosion!", no, it's not an explosion, it's a disgorgement of the bowels is what it is. Every idiotic thing that anybody could possibly write or say or think can get into the body politic now, where before things would have to have some merit to go through the publishing routine, now, ANYTHING.

And all you're getting is an explosion of useless crap, which added to the other useless crap that was being done originally, only makes it that much worse.
http://harlanellison.com/interview.htm

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:28 pm

That's quite the tower of bitter crabbitude he's ranting from!

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:02 pm

That's quite the tower of bitter crabbitude he's ranting from!

I mean, the politics and ridiculousness of book publishing is not this perfect system that weeds out the best and brightest and most imaginative writers. It is a commercial system that looks for the content that will sell the most books and make the most money and produces literature that is approachable, attention-grabbing, and serialized. That is what I think of when I think of book publishing companies.

If I'm looking for real quality writing I would go to something like short-story collections. The Best American Short Stories collection, for example, has been put out annually since 1915. It is peer-reviewed by prestigious authors and contains intelligent, creative, and powerful writing. Contrast the criteria that the publishers are looking for in the BASS collection with young adult fiction like the Divergent series (not the fairest comparison, but it came to mind first) and you see that there exists a broad range of quality in traditional publishing.

He's trying to discredit internet self-publication by claiming that "it's not an [information] explosion, it's a disgorgement of the bowels is what it is. Every idiotic thing that anybody could possibly write or say or think can get into the body politic now, where before things would have to have some merit to go through the publishing routine, now, ANYTHING." But the fact is that the only thing that has really changed is how the writing is getting to the reader. People choose which books to read based upon what catches their attention through word-of-mouth and advertising, and what their tastes are. Now that you can go online to sites like writerscafe.org you're still going to be looking for the same sort of writing that interests you, and the only difference is that it will be your fellow internet-users, not big-money marketeers, that will be the main influence on which types of stories you see first among the thousands posted on such sites.

The quality of the content will certainly not be changing. The people who submit their writing to publishing companies are the same people who, when rejected by said companies, post their stuff online for the public (although I imagine most of them try and self-publish for money rather than simply put it up for free). There even exists systems for peer-review and criticism that fulfills a similar function as the role of Editor at a publishing company.

I'm feeling a bit foggy in the head this morning, and so I'm going to just stop there. The point is that this Harlan fellow is appealing to some sort of elitist snobbishness that is unrealistic in how it approaches the actual differences between traditional publishing and online self-publishing. In my own experience, I have found many of the titles on the New York Times Bestseller list to be boring and inane. At the same time, I've been delighted by some of the writing that we ourselves put up on Forumshire, and that I have found elsewhere online.

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Post by halfwise Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:29 pm

What Ellison is saying is that for traditional publishing there's at least some filter between writer and reader. It may not be perfect, but at least it's there. This is quite a fair point, and not elitist at all. And collections are doubly edited: they rarely publish stories that haven't been published before. So I think you are quite right to say the best work is in the collections.

If you're finding good stuff online it's likely because the search functionality is so much better than for traditional publishing. I think the filter process does mean that the ratio of good/bad must be several notches higher in traditional publishing, even if it skews towards the bottom line. I've read plenty of crap which is obviously doing just that.

Finally I should point out that he's not just some "Harlan fellow" - he's one of the most awarded writers and editors in the business. You may not agree with him, but he rarely says something that isn't worth listening to, at least.

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Post by Bluebottle Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:01 pm

I do think there's a hint of elitism in what he is saying, although perhaps not in the traditional sense. I do agree that he wasn't in itself lauding the publishing industry, just pointing out the effect it had as a filter. I for one would say the technological development has both good and bad sides.

Either way, he's an amusing guy.

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Post by Eldorion Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:32 pm

Very well put, Forest.  I'm skeptical of some the notions of "what art should be" ... not that I really have any background in art or am qualified to speak on it, but like ... just don't read the shit you don't like if it offends you that much.  It isn't that hard to avoid it, and it's not for you to say what can or can't provide value to other people in a subjective, personal way.  The Internet has not done away with traditional notions of artistic merit (which can still be found in plenty of places both online and offline).  But even if one accepts some of those assumptions, I think you outline the reasons why the Internet has still not been such a bad thing.
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Post by halfwise Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:42 pm

If you read the whole interview with Ellison carefully, you'll find that he emphatically is not saying the internet is bad, just that he doesn't find it useful. And the reason he doesn't find it useful is because the lack of a filter multiplies Doctorow's law: "90% of science fiction is crap...but then 90% of everything is crap."

Note that was referring to published work. The filterless internet would be closer to 99%, at which point Ellison has no time for it. Of course he never took the time to find the better sites, but I don't think that means he's wrong. You also have to remember he's got very high crabbit standards, so would have given up in a rant quicker than we do.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:08 pm

I have a sneaking suspicion he hates Youtube LOL Catz as well. No
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