Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:31 pm

You are completely right, of course. Important was the wrong word, but it's a good intriguing, impactful piece of backstory. That there was a King so bad that he was the only King to ever bear his name. And I think they've even mentioned him dying on the throne in the series. And I struggle to see a reason why they couldn't just have said Aegon the third or something. Why not just tie in with the larger story of Georges work. You get an entier intriguing back story pretty much free of charge.

There was another really odd one in one of the last episodes too, I think. A king with a distinctly un-Targaryan name or something.

I thought your Isildur example a good one.

by Eldorion Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:32 pm

I definitely get what you mean. The intricate backstory is not something most people will pay much attention to (probably not even most book readers, if my experience talking about ASOIAF and LOTR outside of forums is any indication), but I do think it's a valuable part of the overall experience. There's no real substitute for having an actually developed world underlying your epic story, and there's only so far you can go to imitate one without doing the legwork.

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:39 am

Yeah, and George already did the legwork. Shrugging

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:39 am

David Benioff in 2011:

"The vast majority of the readers did an incredible job trying to keep spoilers from ruining the surprise for nonreaders. Its hard to emphasize how much we appreciate that the moment remained a shock for so much of the viewing audience."

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:54 am

I have to admit I do find it funny how Jorah with his super contagious, transferable by touch, greyscale keeps making sure to touch all of D&D's most precious protagonists as many times as possible. I know it's just poor continuity, but still.. Razz

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:56 pm

[The storyteller] makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. — J. R. R. Tolkien

It's only a little point, but a very important one.

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:26 pm

That's an erm.. interesting theory. Shocked

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121185259197/lets-talk-about-the-hot-mess-5x10-is-going-to-be

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:59 pm

Btw, Eldo. Do you remember you were theorizing about a growing purist liberal shicm in Game of Thrones fandom before the season started?

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/
(See the post below the Crys watches GoT's thing. Wink

)

by Eldorion Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:25 pm

Bluebottle wrote:That's an erm.. interesting theory.

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121185259197/lets-talk-about-the-hot-mess-5x10-is-going-to-be

My thought before S5 began was that this season would end with Dany on dragonback flying towards Westeros. I'm not convinced of the idea that she'll make it to Dorne in the next episode, but at this point I'm not willing to dismiss it out of hand either. Getting her to Westeros by the end of their equivalent to AFFC/ADWD instead of at least halfway through TWOW (at the earliest) would also fit with D&D's stated intention to aim at wrapping the show up at in seven seasons. Whereas I don't think GRRM has his heart set on seven books, even though he hasn't publicly disavowed that idea yet.

by Eldorion Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:35 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Btw, Eldo. Do you remember you were theorizing about a growing purist liberal shicm in Game of Thrones fandom before the season started?

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/
(See the post below the Crys watches GoT's thing. )

I don't remember that specific post, but it sounds like something I'd say. Laughing

I think what makes the GOT fandom different from similar fantasy fandoms is the massive gulf between book readers and non-readers, which has existed since the first season, well before the current purist movement started to gain steam. I guess it's kind of inevitable when the mainstream success of the show is built on the "zomg moments", but the level of isolation that many sites (not just forums but even mainstream pop culture sites/magazines) enforce. Screen adaptations almost always have more exposure than their source material, so there's always some temporary divisions in the fandom before things settle out. And we've seen that to an extent with GOT, as a lot of people have read the books as a result of the show and then joined the existing fandom. But there's also the semi-separate show-only fandom seems to try to shut the books out entirely. My best guess is that this is a defense mechanism against some of the douchey people who would try to spoil things early on, but it's just weird the level of separation between the two. There are some forums I visit where you get told off by mods if you post in the wrong GOT thread after having made your status on the books known.

I do get the sense that show-only viewers are still generally positive about the show, especially as the action and shocking stuff has picked up in the second half of this season. But I don't spend a ton of time reading those articles and threads. Within the book fandom, the anti-show position has made massive gains during this season, to the point where I'd say it's now the majority in many of the larger centers of GOT discussion for book readers. But there are still vocal defenders of the show among the readers and I'm sure there are plenty more who enjoy the show but don't engage in arguments about it.

by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:01 pm

my attitudes towards GOT are quite similar to my attitude to LOTR. I love the books but the high quality of the tv/films are enough to enjoy them on their own merit. The book readers/purists becoming more and more negative of the tv/films as they progress and the split widening as time goes on with the tv/films becoming more pop cultural objects in their own right. I enjoy both and can separate them so as to enjoy both without too much angst. The tv shows are pure entertainment, the books are deeper, its just daft to compare them.

by Eldorion Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:16 am

I don't think anyone on this forum is arguing that the show should have followed the book slavishly. For my part, I was open to the idea of even more drastic changes than they we got this season. The problem is that most of the content they've come up with ranges from mediocre to bad purely by TV standards.

by Bluebottle Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:11 pm

Yeah, it's not really the difference from the books for me. It is the inconsistencies and lack of logic in the storytellig and the charactersizations of the show. I'll not pretend there being a version without those problems doesn't make it harder to forgive the lack of quality however.

When you do an adaptation you make a choice. You can follow the subject matter slavishly.You can make broad stroke changes to fit the adaptation to the new medium, but still keep close to the original story. Or you can make up your own story with the subject matter only an inspiration.

More and more with season 4 and 5 the showrunners have decided to leave the original story behind and write their own. When that is the case you should judge their writing on it's own merit. I think calling it poor this season is an understatement.

What is pathetic is them still hiding behind George when they do something they know is going to be controversial. Like with the Shiree thing. "George told us this would happen.. we just changed every circumstance, but if you don't like it blame him."

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 34 Shiree10

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 34 Shiree10

http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21734390#t21734390

by Bluebottle Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:48 pm

Eldorion wrote:I don't remember that specific post, but it sounds like something I'd say.

Yeah. You were wondering if it would come to a head this season, I think. So.. I guess the answer is.. yes. Razz

Obviously such a divide between the watchers of something is nothing new to anyone who has followed Peter Jacksons treatment of Tolkiens work, but it's still interesting to see it grow up in front of your eyes. And it's odd to think that people move into these cultural cliques when dealing with adaptations of much treasured works. Looking at the reasons behind it would probably make an interesting psychological study. I guess there's a sense of violation on each side. "How dare you be dismissive of the thing I love." And that people who come to love something through the screen version might very well feel some of the same powerful conections and strong feelings of nostalgia that the people who grew to love the original works do.

I do think that it's kind of odd about Game of Thrones in particular that it was almost universally lauded, at least by people who liked it, for the first few seasons whether they had read the books or not. Admittedly they stayed close to the original story, and when they made some changes I thnk most of them were accepted. Some were for the worse and badly written (a sign of things to come), but even that to a large degree was forgiven, because the show got so much right. Yes, there were some silly things to do with HBO and nudity, but at that point it fit a lot better into the general narrative. The Theon Rose scenes and the Viserys and Doreah(?) in the bath scene in the first season actually did a good job of giving you a look into the characters in an intimate situation. Now they hire porn actresses to fill the nudity quota. Partly because the show is now so popular many of the most prominent actresses refuse to do nudity. (For good and bad most of the nudity on this show has been female.) It has lost most of any narrative quality it ever had.

As it seem this schism among the viewers seem to have grown out at a point were the showrunners have decided to diverge widely from the subject matter, but also, I think we agree, at a point were one can see a distinct drop in quality. People say the subject matter show a similar tendency, but their changes seem only to create new problems, rather than to alleviate any, and keep many of the old ones.

It's an interesting question to ponder how much is down to the increase in diverging form the subject matter and how much is down to the drop in quality, but either way there seems to be a growing purist liberal schism, following all the insult slinging tendencies of other such schisms.

Now, as you say these aren't two distinct groups, but it seems to be a general trend.

by Bluebottle Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:59 pm

From George's Not a blog.

Meanwhile, other wars are breaking out on other fronts, centered around the last few episodes of GAME OF THRONES. It is not my intention to get involved in those, nor to allow them to take over my blog and website, so please stop emailing me about them, or posting off-topic comments here on my Not A Blog. Wage those battles on Westeros, or Tower of the Hand, or Boiled Leather, or Winter Is Coming, or Watchers on the Walls. Anyplace that isn't here, actually.

Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me "the third most powerful writer in Hollywood" last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I've been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/429752.html

by Bluebottle Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:35 pm

Oh, ffs...

https://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ?t=1m47s

You have written this show, produced this show, run this show from day one.. and you can't even remember what you presented on screen.

(He was burning idols of the Seven.. no people. It wasn't even mentioned. Retconning ftw. Rolling Eyes

)

And that's not even the most insulting thing in those interviews.

by Bluebottle Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:28 am

More from George.

I suspect that "Maegor III" was a mistake, though I cannot say for certain. Perhaps a flubbed line, as you suggest. It is true that the Targaryen succession on the series is different than the one in the novels; most notably, the Mad King's father Jaehaerys II was dropped, as was established way back in season one. In much the same way as the Rhoynar have been dropped from the royal titles, "King of Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men," etc.

These changes were simplifications, however. The books are very complex, but the practical limits of a television series call for a bit more simplicity. Dropping a king or two accomplishes that.

ADDING kings, however, would be a step in the opposite direction, which is why I think "Maegor III" had to be a mistake. And not one that was in the scripts, I would guess. Bryan Cogman, who is the Keeper of the Continuity on the series, knows the names of the Targaryen kings as well as I do.

Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. (Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).

All this, of course, is surmise on my part. You would have to ask David or Dan or Bryan for a more definitive answer.

In the book canon, of course, there has only been only King Maegor, the reputation of Maegor the Cruel being so black. England has had only one King John, for much the same reasons. (Prince Aerion Brightflame did name his son Maegor, but that was meant as a provocation, and in any case the boy never sat the Iron Throne).

As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21723638#t21723638:

by Eldorion Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:11 am

Bluebottle wrote:Oh, ffs...

https://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ?t=1m47s

You have written this show, produced this show, run this show from day one.. and you can't even remember what you presented on screen.

(He was burning idols of the Seven.. no people. It wasn't even mentioned. Retconning ftw. )

And that's not even the most insulting thing in those interviews.

Oh wow. I didn't even make it 30 seconds into that video before turning it off in disgust at their retconning of earlier episodes. I think this might take the cake, though. D&D make PJ look like a stickler for continuity and clear, sensible storytelling.

by Bluebottle Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:53 am

Yeah, I've been avoiding those for a while. I only looked the last one up as you mentioned it, and lasted to about the spoiler. Then I went back and saw that short point as someone pointed it out. I don't think I could sit through the whole thing.

Those interviews are full of gems though.

"When Stannis makes up his mind he never changes it."

Stannis refuses Mellisandres suggestion to burn Shireen, next episode..

"Oh, this snowfall is getting kind of annoying."

Burns Shireen.

And why did he go north again. Was it because he got it wrong? He put the cart in front of the horse? Was he trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when he should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne?

So much for the king who cared. (Another dropped line.)

Even in the show it was Mellisandre who changed his mind and convinced him to go north. To fight the real war.. for Winterfell.

".. this choice between ambition and family values. And he chooses ambition."

:facepalm:

"..set you free on the path to Winterfell."

Confirming for them he basically burned his only daughter and heir to stop a storm and attack a castle.

"The first time we saw him.."

Yeah.. no.

It's just painful to listen to. Although I guess one should have seen it coming considering how much they skewed his character to fit their image, but even then the writing didn't justify the actions they made him perform.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:24 pm

Someone on another forum..

"The mummers farce is done."

Laughing

Oh, my poor Lord Too Fat To Sit A Horse. At least we'll avoid D&Ds interpretation of you.

If I had thought to see war again in my lifetime, I should have eaten a few less eels.”
– Wyman, to Catelyn Tully

“King Robb has no more loyal servant than Wyman Manderly.”
– Wyman, to Rodrik Cassel

“When treating with liars, even an honest man must lie.”
– Wyman, to Davos Seaworth

“I am fat, and many think that makes me weak and foolish.”
– Wyman, to Davos Seaworth

“My son Wendel came to the the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”
– Wyman, to Davos Seaworth

“The wolf will prove the boy is who we say he is, should the Dreadfort attempt to deny him. That is my price, Lord Davos. Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king.”
– Wyman, to Davos Seaworth

“Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey.”
– Wyman, on Little Walder Frey

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:28 pm

“Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he ~~lived~~ been included he D&D would have ~~grown up to be a Frey~~ written him.”
– Wyman, on the show.. probably.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:31 pm

For anyone who wants to put D&Ds handling of Stannis behind them, this Winds of Winter preview chapter is still amazing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120103133022/http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

by Radaghast Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:30 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Stannis refuses Mellisandres suggestion to burn Shireen, next episode..

"Oh, this snowfall is getting kind of annoying."

Burns Shireen.

This is TV show, not book, right?

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:37 pm

Definitely TV show. Nod

If you haven't read it.. I'll say no more of the situation in the books than that what happens in the show isn't physically possible in the books at this point.

by Radaghast Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:28 pm

Interesting. I'm just starting to catch up on the TV show Very Happy

Also, I just want to say, GRRM should be slapped in the face with an halibut. Thanks.