Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by Eldorion Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:07 pm

I actually do want to read all that, but I still haven't seen episode two due to a combination of being busy, taking an unexpected overnight trip, and having technical problems (first my dad's cable failed to record the episode, then it turns out that HBO GO doesn't get along with Linux Mad

).

by Forest Shepherd Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:16 pm

Bluebottle's official rating for episode 2!
Smile

,

and

(Good review with thoughtful crabbit, I liked it!)

by Mrs Figg Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:54 pm

by Eldorion Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:27 am

Ended up watching the episode through the HBO GO app on my phone. Shitty way to watch an episode but I ran out of patience. Still lots of set up but there's a lot to like here, in addition to a few really questionable moments.

IIRC, having the Sons of the Harpy be poor free citizens of Meereen is a change from the book, where it's implied if not outright stated that the whole organization comes from the former Master class. I actually find the show's version more plausible though, as it fits what we know about real world insurgencies better. Doesn't mean I'm confident that D&D will execute the altered storyline perfectly, but I'm not gonna knee-jerk against this change.

Reading all the complaints doesn't help my perception, but the Cersei/Jaime dynamic has been really off since last season. First the rape scene that they didn't realize was a rape scene, then their apparent conciliation in White Sword Tower, and now Jaime just generally being dim. I guess he doesn't have any obligations to the Kingsguard since he's able to decide to go to Dorne on a whim, even though his vows were a major cause of tension between him and Tywin last season.

Agreed that the Tyrion and Varys scene was just more of the same. Disappointing. Some of the stuff at the Wall was good but the election should've been spread over two episodes (and should've started if not been completed last season). Not really enjoying Brienne's storyline, but it's not as boring as her one from this stage of the books. Razz

Show still looks great, and the actors are doing the best with what they've got. I really want to see more of Arya; I'm excited for the interior of the HoBaW. Not all that optimistic about Dorne anymore, though.

by Eldorion Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:52 am

Love this: graphic novel style rendition of Ned's Tower of Joy flashback.

http://blog.urukkisaki.com/post/117088633609/towerofjoy

by Forest Shepherd Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:10 am

A little hard on the eyes to read such small text, but the images were both graphic and novel.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:22 am

Been reading the Dunk and Egg stories; I'm through the first two so far. The first one was fun, but the second was honestly something special. The characters have grown on me, but I really like the ground-level view of Westeros as well as the thematic examination of what it means to be a sworn sword. For as much as Westeros (or really, feudalism in general) is a crapsack world, GRRM is able to capture a lot of emotional nuance and not just make it unrelenting pain and horror, but without trying to brush the horror under the carpet either. And of course, there's lots of delicious Targaryen backstory courtesy of Septon Exposition.

by Forest Shepherd Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:55 am

I'm quite curious as to what these stories are!
I don't think I've heard of them anyway, and the way you describe them makes them sound very good.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:05 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_Dunk_and_Egg

They're set about 100 years before ASOIAF, and follow the two title characters as they wander Westeros trying to get by. The stories take place in the aftermath of the First Blackfyre Rebellion and so the political issues cast a long shadow over the characters' lives. There are a lot of Targaryen characters, especially in the first story, which is part of the reason I liked it so much. I'd definitely recommend them to anyone interested in exploring more of Westeros. Nod

by halfwise Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:34 pm

I'm surprised he had time to write them.

by Forest Shepherd Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:08 am

I like this idea a lot!

by Eldorion Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:17 am

halfwise wrote:I'm surprised he had time to write them.

Martin has his fingers in a lot of literary pies. The first Dunk and Egg story came out in 1998, which is when he was still producing thousand page novels at a rate of one every two years. And just in the past couple years he's written hundreds of thousands of words of Targaryen history that was supposed to be included in The World of Ice and Fire guidebook but is going to probably end up in a Silmarillion-esque volume all of its own at some point in the future. (About 100,000 words of it have so far been published in two parts in two separate anthologies that GRRM co-edited with Gardner Dozois, but both are abridged versions.)

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:41 pm

Eldorion wrote:Reading all the complaints doesn't help my perception

Yeah, sorry about that. Sofa

I thought I'd keep my complaining, though obviously I'm not the only one complaining, to this thread, as I in no way begrudge people enjoying the show, and if they do I really don't want to rain on their parade, but that obviously doesn't help you much.

I'll make some concessions about my complaints though. They are mostly down to the writing, and the consistency in the writing. Production wise as you say the show is still top notch. And even with the problems I have with the writing, I'd certainly not claim it isn't still a more than decent tv show. I might even agree to it being one of the more exiting shows on television. A good tv show in a genre that hasn't seen many of them. But that is kind of also my problem. Because in the genre of fantasy the books, A Song of Ice and Fire, is something completely out of the ordinary. To the degree that it can't be compared to much other than Tolkien. I've looked at a fair few of the other epic fantasy series in this style, and none of them, in my opinion of course, get close to those two. I would say they are the two examples of fantasy writing transcending it's genre. A television adaptation of the series then has the inborn capacity to also transcend it's genre as television, to be somehting out of the ordinary. The building blocks are there, but this is also where they are failing. With the addition of more and more original writing, the show grows more and more mundane, more and more predictable, more and more run of the mill as television goes. Things you might see on any television show is now the norm rather than the exception for the writing. They are introducing just the kind if tropes and rutinely used television plots that Martin wanted to avoid. (Tulisa, the spunky WW1 nurse who stands up to the King and they fall in love is a plotline of middling fantasy stories MArtin has specificaly called out as ridiculous and somethjing he wanted his series to avoid and combat.) And the best parts of Martins writing, particularily in this season, are often the parts they drop. It's showcasing their limitations as writers to an ever increasing degree, and the fact that they seem completely oblivious to that fact is perhaps the most telling part. With a bit more self awareeness perhaps they would trust more in the subject matter they are actually adapting. Because while they still are hitting a lot of Martins plot points they are changing just about everything in betwen. Characterization, motivation etc. The problem is those plot points actually have the characterization and character motivations driving towards them in the books, just look at how predictable the RW was at a second reading, in the show they seem to happen without reason, or in some cases against reason. One thing I'm worried about now is how the WoS will translate with the changes in Cerseis character. I have said that if they have decided to reinvent the show at this point, to change things but make a straight consistent line for the end, then I will try to accept that and judge the show seperately, at least in addition to comparing it to the books, on it's own merit. So, I'm open to and I will try to let that line play out. It's still a pretty amateurish move to disregard four season of story like that, and it does say a whole lot about the quality of their original writing. I don't think you can get out of making that judgement and judging them on the work they do as a whole, but I'll try to enjoy the show from here on out for what it is.

That doesn't mean I won't still compare it to the books though, seperately, or call them out when I feel the writing is poor. I know a lot of peopåle had problems with aFfCs and aDwDs, a lot of it completely fair, but I feel at least that a fair bit of the fair criticism can be put down to the fact that even combined they doesn't make up a distinct, complete or coherent part of the series. The writing in them, I think will be seen in a far better light when the series is seen as a whole. It was marred by an, in hindsight, idiotic decision to split the books gepgraphically, and the lack of a conclusion to the ongoing storylines. It should have come out as one massive book, perhaps in two volumes, and people would have regarded it differently I'm pretty sure. Because that was what it was, one massive story, in a completely different tone to the first three books, as they handle the aftermath of war rather than the action of war itself, I think in that context it would have been seen as quite an achievement. A hard bought achievement perhaps, but not the failure a lot of people and critics rightly or wrongly regard it now. Shrugging

The show is decent, even good, television. (After season 3 I would have said great, someone said after episode 8 of season 4 they would have said great. Shrugging

) And I'd probably be watching it and enjoying it regardless of my relationship with the book series, but after having read the book series it's just such a let down. Perhaps it would almost struggle not to be.. I can't really help thoughts of what could have been, but I also don't feel they are making the best of what they have. And the internal problems are kind of endagering me viewing the show as good in it's own right at the moment.

Ah, that became long. And not necessarily very coherent, which perhaps is fitting when contemplating the subject matter, but I'm kind of trying to get across that I do have two thoughts in my head when I talk about the show while I'm not sure I always manage to make that sufficiently clear. It is a good tv-show in it's own right, althought nothing compared to the books. And the increase in internal problems means it might struggle even with that standard this season. But that's a we'll see, I'll readily admit.

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:16 pm

Eldorion wrote:IIRC, having the Sons of the Harpy be poor free citizens of Meereen is a change from the book, where it's implied if not outright stated that the whole organization comes from the former Master class. I actually find the show's version more plausible though, as it fits what we know about real world insurgencies better. Doesn't mean I'm confident that D&D will execute the altered storyline perfectly, but I'm not gonna knee-jerk against this change.

Yes, that's a good point. Adn something that's brought up in the books when Tyrion and Jorah go through Volantis. All the free Volanteene hate Daenerys because she will free the slaves, most of all the poor Volanteen as they have only the slaves below them on the social ladder. (Okay, I'll admit I know that as I just went through Tyrions storyline from Dance as I missed so much of the him and Illyrio stuff. I'm not that detail savvy. Razz

)

I still think the prostitute smiling is over the top and silly though. There's a different betwen a poor free Meereneese and a whore, who probably was a slave herself and was the lowest of the low on the social scale. There is a limit where the belivability fades. And how is the viewer meant to think the Masters and Hizdar in particular had anything to do with it?

Eldorion wrote:Reading all the complaints doesn't help my perception, but the Cersei/Jaime dynamic has been really off since last season. First the rape scene that they didn't realize was a rape scene, then their apparent conciliation in White Sword Tower, and now Jaime just generally being dim. I guess he doesn't have any obligations to the Kingsguard since he's able to decide to go to Dorne on a whim, even though his vows were a major cause of tension between him and Tywin last season.

I think their changes here seem very arbitrary. And it brings to mind what Dan Weiss said at that Oxford Unon talk about how the rape scene was meant to be a rape scene and it was meant to be problematic, but it was something that the character of Jamie would do as he is.. not a good person. Remember.. he pushed Bran out the window. Rolling Eyes

You mean like Cersei killed Roberts bastards and tried to have Tyrion killed on the Blackwater.. No wait, they gave that to Joeffrey. Or how Tyrion put a singer in a stew and killed Shae in cold blod..

It just screams preferential treatment of characters they like. And because Tyrion and Cersei must be good characters, Jamie must be a bad one? That's really not the way to go about writing, and especially adapting, a story is it?

Eldorion wrote:Agreed that the Tyrion and Varys scene was just more of the same. Disappointing.

"Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

There's so much good writng there, why not use it?

Eldorion wrote:Not all that optimistic about Dorne anymore, though.

As it is going to turn out I now wish they would have dropped it and sent Jamie to the Riverlands instead. He could still have brought Bronn, and they could have brought back a lot of recognisable characers. The BwBs, the Blackfish, the Freys. Dorne doesn't work without Arianne, because that's what the Dorne storyline was, her story. Some one wrote this which was kind of funny. Razz

What if D&D had Treated the Wall Plot the Way they Treated Dorne?

Weiss: I have great news, David!

Benioff: What is it, Dan?

Weiss: We’ve just cast Jonah Hill as Samwell Tarly!

Benioff: That is great news, he’ll get us lots of publicity.

Weiss: But I think we have a problem, he’s going to want a lot more screen time than the character really merits.

Benioff: That’s alright, we can just have him do some of the stuff that kid does. You know, the angsty kid…

Steve: Jon Snow?

Weiss: Who’s this nerd?

Benioff: He’s one of my summer interns. He actually read A Dance with Dragons and he wrote us that summary I showed you.

Steve: My name is Steve.

Weiss: That’s nice. Thanks for keeping it under three pages. Yeah, David, we can hit some of the same plot point with Sam, like the whole thing with the redhead….

Steve: Ygritte?

Benioff: Jonah would love that. Yes, Sam can have the thing with Ygritte.

Weiss: So that means he’ll be the one to do all the stuff where he joins the Wildlings.

Benioff: And then he can have that fight we Qhorin Halfhand.

Weiss: That was SO cool.

Steve: Uh, but, Sam isn’t the kind of guy who would get into a fight to the death. Ever.

Benioff: Yeah, we’ll have to fix that about him. Our Sam would do that.

Steve: But you see, the entire point of Sam is that he doesn’t conform to normative masculinity…

Benioff: That’s boring and ponderous, we need to streamline things.

Steve: But what will Jon be doing while Sam is off with the Wildlings?

Weiss: You know, David, that’s a good point. I’m starting to question whether we need Jon at all.

Benioff: I think you’re right, Dan. And he is awfully broody.

Weiss: You’re probably right. If we can expand Sam’s role, we don’t really need Jon.

Steve: But Jon is a POV character, the central character of the plot line, he leads the defence of the Wall, he becomes Lord Commander, he may have a very important role in future books…

Benioff: The kid has a point, can we make it so that Sam becomes Lord Commander and leads the defence of the Wall?

Weiss: Well, if he does all that he may as well just be Jon, and that’s not really streamlined. We’ll have to give that stuff to someone else.

Benioff: Who else do we have hanging out in that area?

Steve: Well there’s Pyp and Grenn, but I don’t think you can just cut out Jon, what about that incredibly moving conversation he has with Maester Aemon about family and duty?

Benioff: Oh, Pyp or Grenn can do that.

Weiss: Yeah, as long as we have the dialogue out there, it will be fine.

Benioff: So Grenn with become Lord Commander?

Weiss: No, Grenn is more of an action guy. He has that beard. He can lead the defence of the Wall when the Wildlings attack.

Benioff: And he can die during the climax.

Weiss: Yes! You have such great insight, David. That will be a very emotionally real moment.

Benioff: Totally. But we have to make sure it’s a shock. And when Pyp is elected Lord Commander…

Weiss: Thanks to Sam.

Benioff: Oh course, that’s straight from the book. He’ll make a moving speech to honour Grenn’s memory.

Weiss: Very moving. So we agree, Pyp can be the new LC?

Benioff: Yeah, people love him, he’s funny.

Steve: But why would they vote for him? In the books, the fact that Jon was Ned Stark’s bastard was kind of an element.

Weiss: The kid has a point about the bastard thing. We better make Pyp a bastard or the nerds will bitch.

Benioff: Can Pyp be Ned Stark’s bastard too?

Weiss: No, that’s too much like Jon.

Benioff: Can he be someone else’s bastard? Robert’s.

Weiss: No, people will confuse him with Gendry.

Benioff: Who? Never mind, he’s can’t be important if I don’t like him.

Weiss: Yeah, David, I really trust your judgement about stuff like that. But there has to be someone else who’s bastard he can be, someone we’ve mentioned already….

Benioff: What about Cat’s dad? Steve! What’s the name of Cat’s dad?

Steve: Uh, Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun, Lord Para…

Benioff: Yeah, whatever kid, we’ll go with him.

Weiss: Perfect! Then we still have that connection to the Starks.

Benioff: It is perfect, so much more streamlined. So, Sam plots to make Pyp Lord Commander.

Weiss: Right, just like he did in the books.

Benioff: You know, it really is worth the extra effort to stay faithful to the source material.

Wiess: It really is.

http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/117205254191/what-if-d-d-had-treated-the-wall-plot-the-way-they

That they said they were going to cut it until they saw how popular Oberyn was as a character says a lot about why it went as wrong as it did to me.

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:23 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:Bluebottle's official rating for episode 2!
, and

(Good review with thoughtful crabbit, I liked it!)

Mrs Figg wrote:

Btw, that was 20 facepalms. Up from 9 for episode 1. Seeing episode 3 tonight. Sofa

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:37 pm

The Tyrion Illyrio chapter that is the equvalent of the Tyrion Varys scene form episode 2 for those who want to give it a go. (It's pretty great.) Smile

Spoiler:

by Bluebottle Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:52 pm

Tyrion: Tell me, why should a magister of Pentos give three figs who wears the crown in Westeros? Where is the gain in this venture for you, my lord?

Illyrio: I am an old man, grown weary of this world and its treacheries. Is it so strange that I wish to do some good before my days are done, to help a sweet young girl regain her birthright?

Tyrion: Next you will be offering me a suit of magic armour and a palace in Valyria.

Tyrion says it best. Very Happy

by Eldorion Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:21 pm

Officially kicking off the GOT s5e3 spoilers:

What the hell is it with this show and prostitutes who are just dying to give away free sex? The Podrick scene was cringe-worthy enough, but in this episode they go out of the way to show that the girl is a slave who is apparently so starved for male attention that she'll fall over the first guy to flirt with her. Like what the fuck? It's not just the most blatant male fantasy bullshit (with a side order of so many misogynistic attitudes about prostitution in particular and women in general), it undermines the show and the worldbuilding too by making it a playground for D&D's favorite characters rather than a believable secondary world.

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Yeah.. the sex slave craving for male attention thing.. I just despair of them sometimes..

Seeing as you're skipping merrily down this path already, reflecting on it in the context of how he basically raped the prostitute in the book chapter, spewed all over the expensive carpet then raped her again before sending her fleeing from the room might be a friendly nudge off the cliff. It was his moment of hitting rock bottom, when all his self loathing, regrets and failures came to a head. Now think about that scene again.

Here to help. Sofa

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:41 pm

Book readers recap thingy for episode 3.

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/117554273303/game-of-snobbery-05x03-a-book-readers-recap

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:01 pm

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 27 Tumblr_nnir9oMEil1r34d37o1_500

A raven from King's Landing to the Eyrie, rider from the Eyrie to Winterfell taking all the time it took to get from one scene to the next.. I know they screw around with disances, but come on..

by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Yeah, it's hard to argue with the "Saint Tyrion" moniker after episodes like this.

Maybe it's just me, but I assumed that Littlefinger telling Ramsay he didn't know about him was a lie to try to get his guard down. Although Ramsay seems surprisingly unguarded and ... bashful (?) about his bastard status, which is pretty jarring. Maybe that's a ruse too, although it'd still be a big departure for him to be able to set aside his pride enough to even act.

I'm not sure where they're going with the High Sparrow so far. Since we know "the walk" will appear, clearly there will be a falling out, but he comes across as almost cuddly in this first appearance. Also, some people on another forum pointed out that the guy who points the way for Cersei looks a lot like Gendry's actor. He really does, but whether that was intentional I don't know. Also, one of the tumblr people pointed out that the show has made "the walk" a gender-neutral punishment, which I'm not sure how to feel about. For all the criticism the books sometimes get about its treatment of women, minorities, bastards, dwarfs, etc., I think that said treatments take place in a plausible context that reflects the biases and problems of the society that surrounds them. The show is clearly not endorsing these social ills either, but they make a bit of a thematic mess of things through the various anachronisms they introduce into the social attitudes.

by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:09 pm

RE: distance

This was especially bad. I've learned not to complain too much about distance because it's a problem in basically every major fantasy (the LOTR movies and ATLA are both full of geographical weirdness, though Tolkien's books are remarkably internally consistent). Maybe this is only jumping out at me because it's a pet peeve and I read other people who feel the same, but D&D feel almost ... flippant about it. Razz

The whole "going around Moat Cailin" thing was like ... wat. Wasn't its strategic importance a big plot point just last season when Ramsay sent Reek to take it?

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Yeah, it's something that bugs me too. Realy takes you out of the moment. But as far as a belivable secondary world goes, the show is getting kind of ridiculous. But at least they are consistent. Like with Varys having a royal pardon sent to Jorah in Meereen by his little birds from one episode to the next last season..

I found this pretty interesting. Not that it's perfect, but it's very detailed. And you can pick up on things like Quentyn not even having arrived in Meereen by the time Ariannes first Winds chapter happens.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Very interesting timeline. Definitely highlights the books' dramatic advantage of not depicting the story in strict chronological order.