A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

I need to stop reading purist threads, they are turning me so negative.

There's an extended version of The World of Ice and Fire?

Edit: el oh fucking el at the Sam POV comment. {{{Does this mean we won't get the fat pink mast scene this season?}}}

I have to wonder if Aegon actually ends up being very important in the books at all. If D&D have been privy to the whole story, I can't see them cutting him out unless he's killed or sidelined pretty quickly. No matter how much they've changed the plotlines (and it's nowhere near Hobbit or even RotK level changes yet) they can't ignore a major Targaryen claimant to the throne.

We've only had a glimpse of him. I doubt he'll last long.

Eldorion wrote:There's an extended version of The World of Ice and Fire?

Edit: el oh fucking el at the Sam POV comment.  {{{Does this mean we won't get the fat pink mast scene this season?}}}

I think they cut substantial parts that George wrote for WoIaF, as George just wrote too much to get it into a publishable form. But he released the Westerlands chapter with some of the additional cut material a little while ago, I think.

{{{Sam just can't catch a break. }}}

halfwise wrote:I have to wonder if Aegon actually ends up being very important in the books at all.  If D&D have been privy to the whole story, I can't see them cutting him out unless he's killed or sidelined pretty quickly.  No matter how much they've changed the plotlines (and it's nowhere near Hobbit or even RotK level changes yet) they can't ignore a major Targaryen claimant to the throne.

We've only had a glimpse of him.  I doubt he'll last long.

I hope he has a bit more impact than that. George has talked up a second Dance of the Dragons, which would require two Targaryan claimants at least. People have theorized he might end up on the Iron Throne only to have Daenerys arrive with her dragons.  But I think one can theorize that he won't be part of the endgame at least, and as such they feel comfertable cutting him .(If they have cut him. (Which it seems like they have.))

Also Geroge said recently he had just come up with a major plot twist for the future story, which the show would be precluded from using because of the story choices they have made. Who knows, might be Aegon.

Bluebottle wrote:I think they cut substantial parts that George wrote for WoIaF, as George just wrote too much to get it into a publishable form. But he released the Westerlands chapter with some of the additional cut material a little while ago, I think.

Hmm, I found a post about this on GRRM's blog, and he says that the chapter was only "edited and trimmed a bit", but who knows.  I recall hearing that he'd written a ton of material for Fire and Blood (the Targaryen dynastic history) and I imagine large portions of that would be extended versions of material found in the Targaryen section of WoIaF.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/414772.html

It is interesting timing regarding the gold thing, as you say.

Oh, yeah, the plot twist!

If not him, then Jon Snow will be burned after his assassination to keep him from turning into a white walker, but then since he's Targeryan the fire will cure him and he'll end up with Daenerys. But that doesn't jibe with a character killed off in the series.

I don't see the twist involving Aegon because George said it would be clever, and so far we don't know enough about Aegon to do anything clever with.

Anyone else left? (or unfairly dead?)

Stoneheart perhaps. But when I think aboutit I do think I go in the direction of someone I would find more interesting. If I know George it's probably another Damphair chapter that will put everyone to sleep. (Sorry, that was mean. I don't mind damhair.. that much.)

Actually, George said "the show has a made a couple decisions with this character that would preclude [the plot twist]", so it's not a dead character.

Hm, yes. A bit unsure of what to read into that. And how literal one should take it. But I guess it does say it's a character that that the show has handled in some way.. Or made decisions about. That George are aware of. Though how much one should read into that? I don't know. Remember..

Spoiler:

Eldorion wrote:Hmm, I found a post about this on GRRM's blog, and he says that the chapter was only "edited and trimmed a bit", but who knows.  I recall hearing that he'd written a ton of material for Fire and Blood (the Targaryen dynastic history) and I imagine large portions of that would be extended versions of material found in the Targaryen section of WoIaF.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/414772.html

It is interesting timing regarding the gold thing, as you say.

I think the people who wrote/edited the book with hm said he wrote a ton about the Iron Islands. And that was probably the most substantial parts of the book anyway, right? I just remember it going on forever.

I just rushed through the audiobook. Although I did find it very interesting. (After hearing what Tywin did to the Casterlys I'm not sure George can keep his "The show runners are bloodier than me." shtick up. ) Perhaps I have to think about getting a proper copy at some point.

Why was the stoneheart discussion in spoilers anyway?

Oh, got it. If she does in fact make an appearance.

Yeah. I don't know if I think all that much of the character, but the epilogue of aSoSs is certainly very atmospheric. (And great material for TV one would think, but, hey, what do I know.)

I thought there was a photo of Stoneheart knocking around? or was that fan made?

That was from the set of The Walking Dead.

Honestly, I thought.. scratch that.. I thought, hoped and really wanted it to be better, but I groaned and rolled my eyes just as much as last week. If not more. I'm going to have to sit down and try to sort out my book complaints I think, if I'm to have any chance of enjoying this season. They just can't be helped at this point. The problem is the internal show issues are stacking up as well.

At this point I'm wholeheartedly with Kevan.

Book readers recap thingy for the episode.

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/116946405007/game-of-snobbery-05x02-a-book-readers-recap

I might do a run through of the episode later, like i did for the last one. But just now I thought I'd point at least one thing I thought was great in the episode. (Actually there were a couple of moments that were great.) Namely, Alexander Siddigs performance as Doran. Not only did I think his acting was spot on, but they actually did pretty well with the characterization. (Which is not usual in the show these days.) Dorans character in the books was always one that fascinated me, and it's interesting to see him and Tywin as the older statesmen of the Seven Kingdoms with two very different approaches to creating stability.

Some quotes from Doran from the books.

“As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the highborn from the low. Naked, they were only children. All innocent, all vulnerable, all deserving of long life, love, protection. ‘There is your realm,’ she told her son and heir, ‘remember them, in everything you do.’ My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.”

“I was the oldest,” the prince said, “and yet I am the last. After Mors and Olyvar died in their cradles, I gave up hope of brothers. I was nine when Elia came, a squire in service at Salt Shore. When the raven arrived with word that my mother had been brought to bed a month too soon, I was old enough to understand that meant the child would not live. Even when Lord Gargalen told me that I had a sister, I assured him that she must shortly die. Yet she lived, by the Mother’s mercy. And a year later Oberyn arrived, squalling and kicking. I was a man grown when they were playing in these pools. Yet here I sit, and they are gone.”

(The less said about Ellaria in that scene the better though. Characterization, acting, you name it..)

I thought I'd do a run through of this episode too from the book perspective, as it might be interesting to look back on. It became far too long and rambling, but here's my run through of this weeks episode.

Arya in Bravos

So, Arya turnds up at the door at the House of Black and White and is.. turned away.  This is kind of problematic as the whole idea with the House  of Black and White in the books is that it's a place where people can turn up and ask for the gift of death, for hemselves and someone else. It si notclosed, it is open for people who have reached the end and can not face the world any more. But obviouly Arya is turned away, because..? Like I do get that they wanted this scene in two parts and they wanted to build some tension before the reveal at the end, but.. why? Couldn't they at least come up with a reason? Or written something more straight forward that made sense?

Then whe have her prayer. Remeber as late as last season Her prayer included a whole list of other people who have suddenly disappeared from it. Tywin Lannister, Thoros of Myr, Beric Dundarrion, the Red Woman. Now, why are they suddenly gone?

Let's take Tywin first. Remember Arya leaving Westeros at praticly the same time as Tywinn died last season. She then reaches Bravos, and goes straight from the ship to the House of Black and White. How did the news of his death reach her? Well, could she have heard it from another ship that overtook them during the passage. Well, perhaps a quicker ship than their own, which was carrying dispatches or something. But why would such a ship stop to exchange news with a random trading ship. And if one piece of news where shouted over the water would this be the news they would pass to a ship full of Bravosi. I don't know.

We had the same thing with Stannis last episode, who knew Tywin was dead what had to be days after the event. But lets give them a pass on that one and say Mellisandre saw it in her fires. How did Arya know? Well, you can tr to reason itout, but it requires a lot of mental agility. And it plays into a general lack of care for time and distances and what characters could know in the show.

And Mellisandre, Thoros and Beric is also gone from the list. So, should we assume they were just there as a passing irritation for Arya. It's particularily facepalm-worthy as their inclusion came from their own original writing. Their decision to have the brotherhood sell of Gendry to Mellisandre. But all that is water under the bridge obviously, or D&D (not the game) must be hoping we forget it ever happened. That or they forgot it themselves.  What it says for the future of the Riverlands on the show.. I don't like to think about.

Littlefinger, Sansa, Brienne, the Inn at the Crossroads.

So, Brienne lucks out and meets up with the second Stark girl in short order. It's a good thing Westeros is the size of.. somehting very small.  

Now what does she do with it. She thinks it a good idea to announce that the person she swore to protect. A girl that has gone missing and is wanted for kingslaying is with a very specific person at an Inn in the Riverlands. This she announces in front of hte whole inn. And of course news like this never spread. Its not like Cersei got herself a new master of wisperers for ther small council in this very same episode. Basically Brienne sees the one person she has sworn to protect and immidately decides to put her life in danger. I'm with Littlefinger, I think she might be just as well of without your protection, thank you very much.

Well, I would be if I didn't know show!Littlefinger is the biggest fool immaginable. Marriage proposal..

Let's also say a few words of Brinne as a character here. Does she strike you as a paragon of knighly values. She as in the books. to the degree she came of as naive. In the show she is.. there's no other words for it. A thug. She She purposefully leads some of the Vale knights after her so she can pick them off one by one. "But she was only protecting Podrick!", I hear you say. Now, remember who lost the horses. Who set of the chase in the first place. In the show Brienne is something little short of a psychpath, and a stone cold killer. If I were Sansa I'd run in the opposite direction.

And she decides, both Stark girls having rejecting her that her protection is still obviously needed, because of.. orignal plot reasons.

"Do you think she is safe with Littlefinger?"

Well, obviously not i the show where everyone knows Littlefinger is a villain. The most obvious villain in the seven Kingdoms. The point of the character in the books is that he is a villain, but people don't grasp it. They trust him. (Both Cersei and Jamie thinks of naming him Hand of The King in A Feast for Crows.) If else he wouldn't have gotten very far.

Jamie Cersei, the two, no three, no four neclaces.

It would be good if they remembered their own continuity, at least when it came to number. So, three children, not four, last episode. And now, one of only two neclces in hte world. But wait, didn't Joffrey give one of them to Sansa in season one. And Tyrion to Rose.

Perhaps Cersei is playing Jamie, he certainly seems dim enough in the show to be easily manipulated.

And I guess it's official, Jamie is now Cersei, sorry, Carol. Jamie wants to keep their relationship and children secret? Jamie cares for their children? Jamie will still do anything to get back with Cersei, sorry, Carol?  All things Cersei wanted in the books, and Jamie rejected her. But we can't have Cersei looking weak now, can we.

And the whole reasoning behind going to Dorne.. If he was going to replace Balon Swann why not just have him replace him? No, he needs to sneak in, and somehow remove Myrcella from beneath the eyes of the whole of Dorne. It's a plan that will never work, even Cersei, sorry, Carol thinks it's stupid. Balon Swanns plan worked. Well, expect for the killig Trysaine part, but Cersei is far too nice to do something like to a poor little boy dashing teenage prince.

I quite liked the Bronn/Lollys sceen, though it was pointless.

Jamie in his leather jacket though.

I will get you a better girl and a better castle?

I guess that doens't bode well for Bronn.

Dorne, Ellaria, Doran (Duran?)

This has me really in two minds. Alexander Siddig is great, and the writing for him even fits his character. Ellaria though, I don't even know where to start.

It's odd isn't it how Oberyn was so clear last season that they din't hurt little grils in Dorne. Wasn't the whole reason he wanted revenge the attrocities by the Lannister against women and children. Namely his sister, nephew and niece. But obviously he would want Ellaria to do the exact same thing to Cerseis daughter. Send her back piece by piece. Maybe in the mouth of Obara, who had almost this exact cvonversation with Doran in the books, but even she didn't gbo so far as demand they should torture and dismember  a little girl.

The big problem here is they are missing GRRMs themes. The whole idea that revenge always will come back to bite you. Ellaria in Dorne is the books is the voice of reason. They did the same thing to Catelyn. made her a voice for war and revenge, where she talked of peace and forgiveness in the books.  And that leaves us with no voice of reason, noone to speak against revenge. Doran seems to in this scene, but, yeah..

Meereene

Dario is channeling Sherlock. Well, if Sherlock was a psychopath who stabbed walls. Okay, maybe that doesn't sound that far fetched. Still, that was an incredibly contrived scene. And of course Dario knew just where the hiding soth would place his leg..

Adn lets reflect on this. The soth supporters so far has turned out to be a prostitute and a freed man. I'd understand Hizdar if he would just declare it a conspiracy at this point meant to besmirch the Masters..

And where does this concept of fair trial come from? It sounds hopelessly anachronistic to me.

The Dany Barristan chat was good, but felt a bit too little too late.  

Oh, and isn't it good that they had a nice storyline from GRRM to reuse. Oh, my supporter betrayed me and killed innocent children a Son of the Harpy. Steal from the best, eh. It's jsut that most of Robs motivation for doing this isn't present for Dany.

Tyrion and Varys

Obviously they are great together, but this scene felt incredibly pointless. Basically rehashing just the same htings that were said in episode one. And that trip with Illyrio and Tyrion in the books held so much interest. Their political discussions, Tyrion questioning Illyrios motives. Illyrio explaining, Tyrion not buying a figg of it. But it's not like they havve understandable reasons for doing what they are doing like in the books. I don't know why they didn't just use some of Georges material here. They dedicated the screen time. But repeating the already poor writing from the first episode is obviously preferable.

And thank God we have Varys there to tell us how great Tyrion is. We couldn't have the audience forget now could we.

Drogon moment was great though. And Meereen looks stunning. Cgi locations is one thing this show does amazingly.

Small Council.

Characer assasination of Mace Tyrell continues. Are we really meant to belive that this is the man who supported Renly for the Iron Throne against Olennas wishes? But consistency isn't their strong point, I guess I should have grasped that by now.

Ian Gelder is great in this scene, but the sriting lets him down. Because he obviously couldn't have Cersei coming of bad, or think anyone had legitimate reasons to doubt her leadership and ability.

So instead Kevan must come of as mysoginistic. "You're jut the Queen Mother." And the Lady of Casterley Rock, your liege lady. We kind of just have to assume that he has all his reasons for the book, but jkust doens't choose to share them with the entirety of the Small Council. But for anyone not having read the books Kevan comes of badly here and Cersei comes of well. BEcause, really, come on. Poor relatable Cersei, why won't people trust her. She only wants the best, for her children and the country.

Sam, Gilly, Shireen.

Sam and Gilly are still a couple, I see. Shireen is a nice character, but this scene didn't do much but give some ominus set up for her. Greyscale etc. But what was the need of htis scene. It didn't offer anything new. We've seen just this with Davis and Shireeen before. Considering how rushed the other wall scenes are..

Jon and Stannis.

This scene is stunning. Best in this season so far. Best since Tyrion adn Oberyn last year. Dillaine and Harrington plays great off weach other. Jons little smile and Stannis reaction is just perfect.  

I think including Lyanna Mormonts letter was a real nice inclusion too.

Lord Commander election on the other hand felt so rushed. Completely without setup. Well, Sam used 10 seconds on it in the first episode. I really feel in hindsight that there is so much drawn out unecessary stuff in this episode (that is also a short one as Game of Thrones is concerned), that this really should have been what they built the episode around.

I do get that this might not have been a possibility, with the actor playing Denys Mallister dying during filming. But still, it felt like something that could have been great that was just glossed over as a formality. A big part of the reason for that, for Jons arc at the start of this season being rushed  is that they postponed so much of it, writing really insignificant filler stuff at Crasters to fill up the time, to get their quite underwhelming "battle" for the wall.

And we get more of brash and self assured Sam.

Denys Mallister somehow manages to get fewer votes than a guy who wasn't even on the ballot? He seemed happy enough about it though.

The bit with Maester Aemon casting the deciding vote obviously doesn't make much sense, but I guess it's a nice tv moment. But it did feel very tv troopee. And that was kind of exactly what GRRM wanted to get away from with writing htis series. He didn't want to write the troopes, the obvious scenes. He wanted to write something different. Sadly more and more of the writing for the tv show seems to be heading in the direction  fo run of the mill filler stuff you could see in  any tv show. It's really sad consideering the quality of some of the material they are adapting.

And we end with Arya, who after killing a pigoen and facing up to some very British sounding hugs, I guess they talk the common tounge in Bravos, is now let into the HoBaW for.. reasons..

Jaquen returning was a nice touch, though it doesn't make much sense storywise.

I realize the facepalms are a bit over the top, but I did them last week so I figured why not.

I don't really expect anyone to read all that. But there are some pretty straight forward genuine points of criticism in it I feel. And the lenght kind of speaks to how much there was to point out in this episode too.