Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by chris63 Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:17 am

[size=35]A Song of Ice and Fire Could Be 8, Not 7, Books[/size]

I begin to wonder — though 7 is what we currently have under contract. I remember when he called me, years and years back, to confess that his little trilogy was … well … no longer a trilogy. He predicted four books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he said five books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he went to six. I said … Well, you get it. Finally, we were on the same page. Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Good. Only, as I recently learned while editing THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE (another awesome thing you must buy when it comes out!), there are really technically eight kingdoms, all having to do with who has annexed what when Aegon the Conqueror landed in Westeros. So, maybe eight books for Seven Kingdoms would be okay. Also, he has promised me that, when he finally wraps this great beast us, I can publish the five page letter outlining the bare bones of the "trilogy."

Despite the ongoing battle of how many books will be in Martin's sprawling series, Goell says that otherwise she and Martin rarely butt heads. In fact they only had one minor beef when working on A Dance With Dragons. "I did try to get him to take a few 'words are wind' out of ADWD, but he got stubborn again," Groell says. "Characters said it 14 times in [the book]. I tried to get him to cut it down to 6-7. No dice."

As for when the sixth book, The Winds of Winter, will come out, Groell still doesn't know — but she says that Martin at least appears to be plugging away. "I currently have 168 pages that he submitted back in Feb 2013 in order to receive a contracted payment, but I know more exists, because he keeps talking about chapter he hasn't yet sent me." Oh, that George R.R. Martin. Always with the high jinx.

by Eldorion Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:05 am

I'm pretty sure GRRM has mentioned the possibility that the series will be extended further before. He had said it would end in six books for years anyway, so it's not like another expansion would be unprecedented. Honestly, I don't see how he can possibly wrap things up in only two more volumes. We've technically had five so far, but AFFC and ADWD are really one book that was split in two, and they don't even include the climax, which was split off and will now be the beginning of volume six.

Technically, there are nine provinces in the Seven Kingdoms (The North, the Iron Islands, the Riverlands, the Vale, Westerlands, the Reach, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, and Dorne). The entire continent of Westeros has ten: the aforementioned subdivisions of the Seven Kingdoms, plus everything beyond the Wall.

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:44 pm

Yeah, after reading the last two books finishing in another two never sounded all that plausible to me. Unless he picks up the pace dramatically. Though they have talked about 7 or 8 season for the TV show, so who knows. Shrugging

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:50 pm

Eldorion wrote:Blue: I was worried they'd make a weird change for no reason that would throw me off since the book passage resonated so much with me, but they depicted it almost literally. I was very impressed.

I watched it. And while I thought it generally was great, I did think it was a bit short and the final shot was a bit over the top for me. Really pulled me out of any illusion of realism.

But, generally, yeah, definitely, impressed.

Eldorion wrote: Pedro Pascal has been fantastic, too. He might not look like the book's description of Oberyn but he completely owns the role.

Well, I would agree with that. Very Happy

Yeah, I think there's something about how he portrays the effortless arrogance of the character.

Eldorion wrote: The new Mountain is pretty good too, though I don't recall much about the previous ones.

He looked really good in the TbC, though not so good in the previous episode. In think the main problem with him is that he looks and is 20 years younger than the guy who plays Sandor.

This changing of the actor each season makes it a bit hard to grasp his character as well, which is a shame.

Particularily as the reason the guy from the first season was fired apparently was that he refused to come back and films some scenes for the second season, as he was playing a now cgi'd orc in the Hobbit movies. So, another thing to thank Peter Jackson for. Razz

Eldorion wrote:
Spoiler:

Lancebloke wrote:Both theories are interesting. The Tywin theory makes some sense otherwise Oberyn's comments don't make sense.

Yeah, I think what's great about the theory is that the book is completely open on the point. And if you look for signs of it they are right there.

Spoiler:

Lancebloke wrote:The second one is also the kind of thing Martin would weave in.

I think that one is a lot less plausible. And it also has some issues with the internal logic of the books, Howland Reed holding the Old Gods, but I really want it to be true. Razz

by Bluebottle Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:52 pm

Wow, that became a ridiculously long and messy post. Razz

by Eldorion Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Yeah, after reading the last two books finishing in another two never sounded all that plausible to me. Unless he picks up the pace dramatically. Though they have talked about 7 or 8 season for the TV show, so who knows.

I don't see how they can finish in seven or eight seasons unless they condense the unpublished material significantly. However, given how slow Martin's writing has gotten since ASOS, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. After it was announced that ASOS would be two seasons, Martin was talking about how he thought AFFC and ADWD combined should cover three seasons, and how that gave him plenty of time. But instead those two will be mostly covered in the space of a single season (the fifth). I wouldn't expect the last few books to require splitting, so even if there are three, that would still see the show ending in season eight.

That said, direct book-to-season comparisons are getting harder because there is no longer a precise 1:1 structure to the adaptation anymore. Part of that's because they're telling the story in a more chronological manner, but it's also because they're making more significant changes to the story.

by Eldorion Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:44 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I watched it. And while I thought it generally was great, I did think it was a bit short and the final shot was a bit over the top for me. Really pulled me out of any illusion of realism.

But, generally, yeah, definitely, impressed.

I dunno, I read the passage in the book just a few days before seeing the episode and it's very near to a literal adaptation (a few dialogue changes notwithstanding). The fight in the book is not all that long, and while it does feel a bit more drawn-out and suspenseful, I think that's partially the nature of the two mediums. It's a lot easier to write that the fight went on and on, and a lot harder to show it lasting for that long while keeping things visually interesting. I thought the final shot was really good, too. It was, again, pretty much the same as in the book, and the gore was in service to the story/the end of Oberyn's arc.

Interestingly, a couple of sites have tried to figure out if it's possible to crush someone's skull, and the conclusion has been that someone of the Mountain's size and strength could probably have done so. Time has one such write-up. Also of note is that the actor portraying the Mountain, Hafthor Bjornsson, is a professional strongman and has placed in the top three strongest men in the world the last several years.

Eldorion wrote:Well, I would agree with that. Yeah, I think there's something about how he portrays the effortless arrogance of the character.

Yeah, it was really impressive, especially since he appeared only in this season. The mannerisms, the accent (which is not Pascal's own), and of course the writing are fantastic. There are some great lines and moments in the earlier seasons, but I feel like most everything and everyone are improving in the most recent, and Pascal is (was Sad

) at the front of the pack.

Eldorion wrote:He looked really good in the TbC, though not so good in the previous episode. In think the main problem with him is that he looks and is 20 years younger than the guy who plays Sandor.

This changing of the actor each season makes it a bit hard to grasp his character as well, which is a shame.

That is true, Hafthor is only 25 years old, though that shocked me, personally. I think given his size he can pass for older than that, but you're right, only to a point. Gregor has been a really minor character in the show in general though. Shrugging

Particularily as the reason the guy from the first season was fired apparently was that he refused to come back and films some scenes for the second season, as he was playing a now cgi'd orc in the Hobbit movies. So, another thing to thank Peter Jackson for.

The worst part is that the original Gregor, Conan Stevens, was actually the guy who was cast as both Azog and Bolg before being cut entirely from the films, except for a two second shot in a flashback in AUJ. Those two roles are being played by Manu Bennett and Lawrence Makoare, respectively, and Stevens is out on his ass. I think he must have run over someone's dog or something.

Yeah, I think what's great about the theory is that the book is completely open on the point. And if you look for signs of it they are right there.
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

by Lancebloke Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:49 pm

Eldo... did you just quote and agree with yourself?

by Forest Shepherd Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:16 pm

It wouldn't be the first time. Laughing

by Eldorion Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:54 am

Lancebloke wrote:Eldo... did you just quote and agree with yourself?

No, I was quoting Blue, but I was being lazy and reusing quote tags that were in the earlier post and forgot to remove my name from them. The quoted text is not mine, though.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Yeah, I wrote those, more or less, intelligent things. Mad

by bungobaggins Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:54 pm

I just read the spoilers on the previous page. God dammit what is wrong with me? Do I have no self control? Mad

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:02 pm

Oh, yeah, that might not have been a good idea. Shocked

I spoiled that for myself as well, if it's any consolation, long before I read the books, as the actor in questions insist on mentioning it in pretty much every single interview. Razz

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:12 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:I watched it. And while I thought it generally was great, I did think it was a bit short and the final shot was a bit over the top for me. Really pulled me out of any illusion of realism.

But, generally, yeah, definitely, impressed.

I dunno, I read the passage in the book just a few days before seeing the episode and it's very near to a literal adaptation (a few dialogue changes notwithstanding). The fight in the book is not all that long, and while it does feel a bit more drawn-out and suspenseful, I think that's partially the nature of the two mediums. It's a lot easier to write that the fight went on and on, and a lot harder to show it lasting for that long while keeping things visually interesting. I thought the final shot was really good, too. It was, again, pretty much the same as in the book, and the gore was in service to the story/the end of Oberyn's arc.

Interestingly, a couple of sites have tried to figure out if it's possible to crush someone's skull, and the conclusion has been that someone of the Mountain's size and strength could probably have done so. Time has one such write-up. Also of note is that the actor portraying the Mountain, Hafthor Bjornsson, is a professional strongman and has placed in the top three strongest men in the world the last several years.

Yeah, I probably mostly agree with that. Adapting for television is probably the reason for it, or the justification anyway. And in this case it's probably quite fitting. Generally I thought the fight came across really well. These were just some small quibbles.

I tink it was a bit on the short side, being after all only about 6 minute of a 50+ minute episode entitled The Mountain and the Viper. And there were a couple of things cut out, like the cutting down of the person in the crowd, that would allowed them to keep it going a bit longer, but when they left it out it seems very much like a conscious decision to have it as short as it was.

It was probably that the shorter lenght meant a bit of a departure from the dynamic of the fight in the book that made me react to it. It lacked some of the build up from the book and presence of Oberyns plan to deal with the Mountain, which was to tire him out all the while nibblig at the weak spots in his armour with the spear. It made Oberyns "defeat" of the Mountain seem more effortless, there was less of a nerve and sense of danger until the twist.

That's not to say that would have worked as well as television. And what they did worked rather well.

As for the final shot it just struck me as too much of a television effect. (Just the last one of him lying on his back.) I just remember thinking, they played that up to get a reaction. I'm not sure I buy the effect, even if the action is possible. So it kind of pulled me out of the moment.

Didn't get around to reading the chapter before watching it, so will try to do that and give it a rewatch.

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Well, I would agree with that. Yeah, I think there's something about how he portrays the effortless arrogance of the character.

Yeah, it was really impressive, especially since he appeared only in this season. The mannerisms, the accent (which is not Pascal's own), and of course the writing are fantastic. There are some great lines and moments in the earlier seasons, but I feel like most everything and everyone are improving in the most recent, and Pascal is (was ) at the front of the pack.

I guess that's Georges modus operandi to a degree. Make an incredibly compelling character and then.. That Pascal was so good only made it worse really.

I'll be very interested to see if they can follow up the great casting with Doran, and Quentyn (though that might just be me). He kind of stepped into the hole Oberyn left a bit in the books.

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:He looked really good in the TbC, though not so good in the previous episode. In think the main problem with him is that he looks and is 20 years younger than the guy who plays Sandor.

This changing of the actor each season makes it a bit hard to grasp his character as well, which is a shame.

That is true, Hafthor is only 25 years old, though that shocked me, personally. I think given his size he can pass for older than that, but you're right, only to a point. Gregor has been a really minor character in the show in general though.

Yeah, and that's kind of the problem. They never really managed to establish him as the imposing character from the books with all the recasts. You can't really blame the actor for that though.

They did say they cast Haftor partly because he would be great for the trial by combat scene as despite his size he was still nimble and quick because of his basketball background. And I'd say he certainly justified that in that scene.

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Particularily as the reason the guy from the first season was fired apparently was that he refused to come back and films some scenes for the second season, as he was playing a now cgi'd orc in the Hobbit movies. So, another thing to thank Peter Jackson for.

The worst part is that the original Gregor, Conan Stevens, was actually the guy who was cast as both Azog and Bolg before being cut entirely from the films, except for a two second shot in a flashback in AUJ. Those two roles are being played by Manu Bennett and Lawrence Makoare, respectively, and Stevens is out on his ass. I think he must have run over someone's dog or something.

One moment you have the biggest television show in the world and the biggest movie franchise both vying for your services and then they both drop you like a hot potato. Yeah.

A bit of a shame as he came across pretty well in the first season, and the character would probably have played a larger role if he had stuck around for season 2.

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Yeah, I think what's great about the theory is that the book is completely open on the point. And if you look for signs of it they are right there.
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Yeah, that's what makes it so compelling. You really want it to be true. Which might be good and bad, I guess, but looking at the facts in the book they do point in the direction of it being so. There's certainly nothing there precluding it. And it does strikes me as what Oberyn would do.

As the guy who came up with the theory said; means, motive and opportunity are all there in the book.

Though I guess we'll never really know. I like that the book gives some hints, but kind of leave it up to the reader.

Spoiler:

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:12 pm

Now, that's a post. Nod

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:05 am

Dance with Dragons spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:20 pm

Lance

Spoiler:

by halfwise Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:59 pm

Lance and Figgs: from the books I assumed he was gone, but on re-reading I see chances of resurrection. We've already seen the impossible from the Red Wedding (though I don't think the show has gotten there yet).

(was that suitable cryptic to avoid spoilers? And isn't this thread supposed to not require spoilers?)

by halfwise Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:00 pm

Yep, I'll raise it again. I thought this thread was where everything was open, no spoilers. And the other thread has no spoilers because you're not supposed to talk about book knowledge. But even Eldo is using spoilers here....

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:40 pm

I have been using spoilers just because people may not have got that far in the book series.

And after reading the passage I don't hold much hope for him. Will be quite a miraculous recovery.

by halfwise Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:12 pm

Remember Caitlen....

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:33 pm

Yes... and I also assume that is what happened to Brienne. Suppose you are right there but they all now seem to be side plots.

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:12 pm

if they kill Brienne in the tv show I will be wildly pissed off, oooh Lady Stoneheart, thats weird shit, but they need to have at least one core character from each house survive or theres no satisfaction on watching them battle through all the horror. Dany for Targarians, Jon and Arya for house Stark, Sansa for house Aryyn, (as creepy kid Robert dies), Tyrion house Lannister, etc.....maybe Lady Stoneheart finds Jon dying and takes him to the Brotherhood dudes to heal cant remember there names but one of them was immortal, she probably owes him something for being a cow to him when she was alive.

by Ringdrotten Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:30 pm

Lancebloke wrote:
Dance with Dragons spoiler:

I came here to make a similar post, having just read the chapter in question. To be honest, I was actually quite shaken by the scene and how it happened. He can't kill him off, not him as well Sad

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:35 pm

also theres a Targaryen ex king in castle black? is he fire proof as well? scratch