Re: DOS theatrical on DVD, Blu-ray, streaming

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:25 pm

If they had been in flight at the time I would agree, but they arent, they are all standing around doing reaction shots to Gandalf dangling. Mad

The single thing they do actually do is stop Frodo from helping. Mad

by David H Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:38 pm

You all know I'm not a big fan of dangling, but from memory I don't think the internal logic of the PJ scene is terrible.

The Gandalf they'd all known to this point was just assumed to be immortal, and assumed to have things as "under control" as can be expected from a crazy old wizard. That thought that he might accept their help, let alone need it, wouldn't be at all automatic, even in the book I think.

When Gandalf told them to fly, it would be natural for them to assume that he's planning to delay the Balrog someway to cover their escape, then meet them again at some later point, which is what wizards do, and which in fact is what happens. In that context the last thing they'd do is try to help him against his will.

by bungobaggins Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:48 pm

From the FOTR EE commentary transcript.

Philippa: [Frodo tries to run to Gandalf] Some people say, “Why does Boromir stop him? Why doesn’t anyone go and help him?” and there’s two answers: one is that they’re actually –. They are actually far away; and also that the rest of the Bridge is in a bad way, and could collapse at any second. [Peter: Oh!] But what I love in the book –.

Peter: I didn’t realise that.

Philippa: It’s what it is in the book.

Peter: Ah, okay.

Philippa: What… Didn’t you do that for that reason?

Fran: I thought he stopped him because he’s carrying the Ring: you can’t afford to have him…

Philippa: Yeah, well that… I love the bit in the book where, later on, when Frodo says, “If it hadn’t been for us” – he says to Faramir – “they wouldn’t have run.” He was talking about Aragorn and Boromir. “If it hadn’t been that they had to look after us, they would not have run.” Love that. [Fran agrees] Wonder if we can get that in.

Fran: And also, on that line, “Fly, you fools” which… I think Ian does it so beautifully – that he lets go rather than falls.

Philippa: Oh yeah, absolutely. He wants them to…

Peter: [at same time as Philippa] Yeah, yeah.

Fran: The choice he makes at that moment is to…

Philippa: It’s the choice he knew that he was going to have to make from the moment he [Fran: Yes] understood the mind of Saruman.

Fran: Yes.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:50 pm

David he doesn't tell them to fly until right before he goes in- before he that he is scrabbling about trying to get a grip clearly in need of assistance. And they have time to stop Frodo and for Frodo to do some slow-mo 'Noooo'ing.

In the book its almost instant, the whip coils round his legs and pulls him in and he cries out as he falls. There is no time to react.

And I dont agree they did think he is immortal or has it under control or will just meet them later.
In the book Aragorn is worried specifically for Gandalf's life before they go into Moria.
And at the bridge both he and Boromir refuse to flee and stay to fight alongside Gandalf. Which they wouldnt do if they thought he would be fine no matter what.

Bungo- have any of them read the book? Shocked

by bungobaggins Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:55 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

Bungo- have any of them read the book?

Probably Cliff's Notes.

by David H Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:02 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
And I dont agree they did think he is immortal or has it under control or will just meet them later.

That's OK, You don't have to agree. But it's the way I've read that scene since I was a kid, probably influenced by having a Dad who was a WWII combat veteran, and as near to immortal as anybody I could imagine.

That's one of the cool things about LotR. We all bring different things to it, and reading it when I was young was a very different experience in some ways than reading it now.

by David H Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:30 pm

I just reread the passage. Like so many memorable scenes for Tolkien, it's left quite open. The line that still rings with me, even more than the "Fly, you fools!", is, "Come, I will lead you now! We must obey his last command. Follow me!"

That "last command" line conjures up so many things for me.

by Eldorion Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:45 pm

Oh man, I'd forgotten they talked about this in the FOTR-EE commentary. It's been ages since I listened to that. Thanks, Bungo! Very Happy

David H wrote:When Gandalf told them to fly, it would be natural for them to assume that he's planning to delay the Balrog someway to cover their escape, then meet them again at some later point, which is what wizards do, and which in fact is what happens. In that context the last thing they'd do is try to help him against his will.

I can't say I'd ever thought of the scene that way, but I can see where you're coming from. Gandalf had certainly gotten out of some extremely tight situations before (more than most of the characters knew about, though they'd all heard the story of his escape from Isengard). That said, they all seem pretty certain that he is dead mere minutes later, after escaping into the daylight (at least in the film, I don't have the book in front of me to check). Shrugging

I think you're right about them wanting to honor Gandalf's last command to put the quest first, but I think the altered nature of Gandalf's fall in the films changes the nature of the scene drastically.

by halfwise Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:08 pm

Holding Frodo back makes sense. The rest of them lolligagging around doesn't. You'd think Legolas at least would make a dash for him.

by bungobaggins Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:13 pm

Aragorn and Boromir attempt to help him...in the book.

by David H Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:16 pm

They do start to go back, but when Aragorn cries, "He cannot stand alone!" then shouts "Elendil! I am with you Gandalf!" it seems to me to be very much in a spirit of "If we fall, we go together." don't you think? Whereas Gandalf is putting the greater mission first.

He already plans to fall with the Balrog when he says " I must hold the narrow way. Fly!" That's the way I've always read it, (At least I think. That what's so hard about having seen the movie several times. It muddies what I think I remember from before.)

So does anybody read it that Aragon and Boromir truly believe there's a chance that they can actually defeat the Balrog by force of arms, even after Gandalf says "This is a foe beyond any of you." or is running back along the bridge at the last simply an act of heroic futility? What do you all think?

by bungobaggins Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:36 pm

I'd like to think that Boromir and Aragorn don't believe that they can actually defeat the Balrog. Maybe it is more heroic futility, but I'd imagine that they would feel a strong need to back up the leader of their company as well (even if they are disregarding his command).

by bungobaggins Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:43 pm

I guess what I'm interested in now is why did the filmmakers feel the need to change "cannot" to "shall not"?

by malickfan Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:59 pm

bungobaggins wrote:I guess what I'm interested in now is why did the filmmakers feel the need to change "cannot" to "shall not"?

Cliff Notes...

I posted an interview last year where Jackson admitted he'd only read LOTR once (20 years prior) before starting pre production on the films, I still think he never read the book again in its entirety only sections here and there getting muddled up with his script and the actual story.

I'd like to think Boromir stood by Aragorn out of a sense of alliegneice to Aragorn, but it seemed to me more ignorance on his part in the film ('What is this new devilery?' Sean Bean made him seem more perplexed than afraid)

by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:02 am

well at the end of the day PJ managed to convey the essense of the book scenes with economy and directness. Its quite obvious Gandalf is trying to sacrifice himself to save everyone, and Aragorn has the good sense to understand this. Aragorn is actually the only one to understand this. Legolas is in mortal fear of the Balrog, this is the only time in LOTR where he shows any fear. Boromir is ordered by Aragorn to pick up the hobbits and escape, the Hobbits are desperate and want to go back, but Boromir picks them up by force and runs ahead. Aragorn looks back in anguish at the last, while Orc arrows thud into the stone walls around him. That scene is brilliant and the Whole sequence is moving and I love it.

by malickfan Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:07 am

As a film I love it, my only real problem is figuring out how/why the Dwarves built the Bridge with no handrail or supports...

(Seriously what is it with PJ and bottomless chasms...)

by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:10 am

it gives you that queasy vertigo feeling, handrails are for pussies.

by Eldorion Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:31 am

malickfan wrote:As a film I love it, my only real problem is figuring out how/why the Dwarves built the Bridge with no handrail or supports...

(Seriously what is it with PJ and bottomless chasms...)

No OSHA in Middle-earth.

by Eldorion Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:32 am

Mrs Figg wrote:That scene is brilliant and the Whole sequence is moving and I love it.

Despite my quibbles, I do agree that the scene is brilliant. One of the best in the film, and indeed the entire trilogy. I don't think it holds up to close scrutiny, but it is very effective on an artistic and emotional level, which is more important.

by bungobaggins Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:34 am

It's probably the strongest scene in all of PJ's Middle-earth movies.

by bungobaggins Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:38 am

malickfan wrote:As a film I love it, my only real problem is figuring out how/why the Dwarves built the Bridge with no handrail or supports...

(Seriously what is it with PJ and bottomless chasms...)

I'm guessing that building the bridge like that with no handrails/supports and very narrow, would be for defense reasons. But then again, all the enemy has to do is destroy your bridge and then you're kinda fucked.

by bungobaggins Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:44 am

Yeah, I think I'd argue that this is the strongest scene in PJ's Middle-earth movies.

by Tinuviel Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:52 am

It has always bugged me that no one went to help him up, ever since I first saw the film (it was the one part I wasn't too afraid to watch!) There really isn't a reason that they couldn't pull him up, but at the same time I feel like he had to fall, like he made the choice to fall. I don't know. It made sense to me once, but I'm finding it hard to see how?

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:43 am

I don't think it holds up to close scrutiny, but it is very effective on an artistic and emotional level, which is more important.- Eldo

Yes, but there is no reason it could not both be emotional and artistic and stand up to scrutiny- chap called Tolkien managed to pull it off just fine.

by halfwise Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:04 pm

malickfan wrote:As a film I love it, my only real problem is figuring out how/why the Dwarves built the Bridge with no handrail or supports...

(Seriously what is it with PJ and bottomless chasms...)

The bridge and chasm are exactly as Tolkien described it, so it wasn't PJ in this case. But yeah, if Tolkien was thinking about it he'd probably say it's easier to keep an enemy from rushing across a bridge with no handrails. My suspicion is that he just thought it was a cool image.