Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[azriel]

Yep, just about sums it up, tho that image will live with me in my dreams tonight Gawd help them if one guffs !

[Pettytyrant101]

[Pettytyrant101]

Was having a debate with someone earlier and thought Id get the views of the UShobbits on here. According to wiki the criteria for becoming President are-


   be a natural-born citizen of the United States;
   be at least thirty-five years old;
   have been a permanent resident in the United States for at least fourteen years.

Question is in current day America could America people tolerate a president who refused to say God Bless America because it would hypocritical as they don't believe in God?

And the follow up question is what about someone of a different faith than Christian?

Because not only is there no rule barring either, but the very myth of America is about freedom of thought, expression and religion. But is it actually possible? Or are there two unwritten rules in America?

[halfwise]

I estimate 30 years before either an atheist or a non-christian is elected president.

(That may be an optimistic estimate.)

((Shouldn't this be in the Further Proofs that America is Wacko thread?))

[Pettytyrant101]

The non-christian thing I get- I dont see a Muslim for example becoming PM of Britain any time soon either.

But the atheist thing- thats weird from a UK perspective. Our politicians go out of their way not to show their religion. Blair famously hid his for the very good reason that he knew if the electorate got hold of the notion he was making big decisions like going to war based on faith and what he thought Gods plan was his vote would have collapsed overnight.
Europe learned some very harsh lessons about that long ago, and we haven't forgotten.

Whilst a politician is acting as a politician thats their job- rational decisions based on logical steps and reasoning of some kind- spiritual leaps of faith based on what you think God wants you to do are not in the job description.

So the whole notion of someone having to espouse God to get elected is just odd.


{{{And you might be right about which thread it should go in}}}}

[Eldorion]

Yep, just about sums it up, tho that image will live with me in my dreams tonight  Gawd help them if one guffs !

Turned sour on politics? Visit lemonparty.org!

Spoiler:

[David H]

Question is in current day America could America people tolerate a president who refused to say God Bless America because it would hypocritical as they don't believe in God?

And the follow up question is what about someone of a different faith than Christian?

In answer to the first question, I'd say that anybody who sees the simple act of reciting of the ritual phrase "God Bless America" as hypocritical, whatever their beliefs, is not the kind of person who belongs in politics. That's like the kind of person who wears a mask in public and refuses to shake hands for fear of germs.  It's totally legitimate and logical, but it's not going to get you far in public life.  If you want to be able to govern effectively in a multicultural world, a person's going to have to be able to reach across cultural lines better than that.

As for presidents of different faiths, there have been a lot of Jewish governors and congressmen going back into the 19th century, I think.   If the right candidate came forward, I think it could happen.

[halfwise]

Yes, I think a Jewish President is a possibility in the not too distant future. Though assuredly some folks will freak out about it.

[Pettytyrant101]

If you want to be able to govern effectively in a multicultural world, a person's going to have to be able to reach across cultural lines better than that. - David

But how does adhering to and espousing one particular faith over all the others reach across cultural divides?- surely keeping quiet about it and keeping it personal to yourself and getting on with doing the job you are elected to do on behalf of everyone in the country regardless of any belief structure, is a better way?

[halfwise]

Saying publicly that you will not say "God bless America" is not keeping it to yourself.

[Pettytyrant101]

Whats wrong with 'Bless America?' Why does the President need to bring a particular God into it?- you have laws stopping God being mentioned in public intuitions yet every President Ive ever seen cant stop mention Him. It doesn't seem to make any sense.

I'm not saying they should declare it, I am just saying they shouldn't have to mention it, let alone be obliged to whether they believe it or not just to have a chance. That doesn't seem to mesh well with freedom of thought, religion, or the idea any American can potentially be President (thats the problem with having a Dream and no class system, we Brits born at the bottom end of the working classes know we wont ever get to be PM from birth and we strictly forbiden from dreaming).

[Eldorion]

Remember Petty that a lot of the colonists in America were people who got kicked out of England for disagreeing with the established church, often for being too hardline. Even though most Americans are not descended from those colonists (or at least have ancestors from multiple different countries), they left a lasting mark on American culture. The Great Awakenings kept that religious fervor alive and nurtured it over the centuries. So even though a lot of the founders were deists, the overwhelming majority of Americans have always been Christian (of vastly differing levels of observance) and most of our elected officials reflect that.

I agree that a Jewish candidate could win at this point, but that's a relatively recent development. Of course, 60 years ago, it was highly unclear if a Catholic could win.

[Pettytyrant101]

Remember Petty that a lot of the colonists in America were people who got kicked out of England for disagreeing with the established church, often for being too hardline.- Eldo

Yeah, I think America may have been a mistake, I think they hoped the boats would sink not set up a nation.

[David H]

Yeah, I think America may have been a mistake, I think they hoped the boats would sink not set up a nation.

I think they hoped we'd be easier to govern from a couple thousand miles away on the other side of an ocean. Oops!

[Pettytyrant101]

Yeah, and we will probably never get done apologising to the rest of the world for how that turned out!

[Sinister71]

well at least we weren't like Australia and started out a prison colony... Just saying I'm thinking about leaving this rock anyways as soon as I find another country I like and can afford to move

[Pettytyrant101]

What do you mean started out a prison colony? All that changed is that the bars are further apart and all the poisonous deadly wildlife has evolved a breed of human particularly good at sports- from one type of fast get away to another.

[Sinister71]

What do you mean started out a prison colony? All that changed is that the bars are further apart and all the poisonous deadly wildlife has evolved a breed of human particularly good at sports- from one type of fast get away to another.

well the way it's taught here in America is we left of our own free will. It wasn't we were banished to some far away place. Australia was banished to a remote island... I wasn't there so I don't know the way it really went down just what were taught in schools here... LOL

[Eldorion]

Yeah, and we will probably never get done apologising to the rest of the world for how that turned out!

Item #14357 on Britain's apology list to the rest of the world.

[Pettytyrant101]

well the way it's taught here in America is we left of our own free will. It wasn't we were banished to some far away place.-Sin

In short we packed all our religious extremists into ships and sent them off as far as possible to set up colonies, n the basis if they all died they wouldn't be missed, and if they succeeded we could at least tax them.
And with the religious zealots gone we got down to the serious business of riding our minds of doctrine and inventing the industrial revolution instead


'Item #14357 on Britain's apology list to the rest of the world.'- Eldo

Hey! Look at all the places we gave a police force too, a post office system, trains, a class system so everyone knew their place and would be happy in it, name me another Empire where when countries gained independence from it a majority at the time retained the supposed conquers flag as part of their new flag, of their own free will.

And thats not to mention all the gear we gave freely to the Chinese. You any idea how much that amount of opium would be worth on the street today? More than Hong Kong I can tell you. Worlds biggest ever foreign aid package.

[Eldorion]

And thats not to mention all the gear we gave freely to the Chinese. You any idea how much that amount of opium would be worth on the street today? More than Hong Kong I can tell you. Worlds biggest ever foreign aid package.

Well when you put it like that...

[Mrs Figg]

''Hey! Look at all the places we gave a police force too, a post office system, trains, a class system so everyone knew their place and would be happy in it, name me another Empire where when countries gained independence from it a majority at the time retained the supposed conquers flag as part of their new flag, of their own free will.'' Petty.

we also gave them football and cricket, but that didn't turn out all that well for one reason or another.

[Pettytyrant101]

Just listened to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress.

He must need two mirrors to shave on for both his faces.

He accuses Iran of working to have nuclear weapons- whilst Israeli definitely already illegally does.

He accuses Iran of sponsoring terrorism in the region- despite the fact the largest funders of state terror of the last half century is the West.

He says unless Iran reform the sanctions, which are crippling their people and fermenting anger towards the West, should be maintained or increased. Reform first. Thats fine, so long as it goes hand in hand with Israel returning the illegally occupied settlements back to the people they stole it from, the Palestinians.

He say the Iranians should have to dismantle their nuclear facilities as Iran having nukes would lead to a region wide arms race. Fine so long as Israel hands over its illegally held nukes too and then no-one has any in the region and no arms race needed.

Only when Israel looks itself in the mirror and admits to its part in all this will we then have a shot at peace and a lasting deal in the region.

Iran will not however stop anything it is doing in the region so long as Israel continues to build up its armaments and to expand by stealing land from the surrounding people and caging them in behind walls.

[Mrs Figg]

oh shit we just had an earthquake.......

where was I?

erm..

that felt like a biggish one. that's quite a weird experience.

just checked it. only 2.4 so not so bad. but right over the epicentre.

[Eldorion]

I didn't watch the Netanyahu speech but that sounds like about what I expected from him.

Mrs Figg: I've only ever felt one earthquake, it was a pretty weird experience and I didn't realize what it was at first since I don't really live in a seismically active area.  Hope it didn't make a mess for you or knock anything over.