Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Eldorion]

Gideon Levy (who, according to the full piece by Gabor Mate now requires a bodyguard to walk outside), wrote a really interesting piece about nationalism in Israel and the contradictions between being a Jewish state and a democratic one.  Actually the most interesting piece to me is his discussion of how the mainstream and centrist parties aid and abet the worst excesses of nationalism.  That sort of analysis can be applied to countless countries, but especially other Western "democratic" ones.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.603232

Edit: I was just able to read the piece but now the Haaretz website is asking me to subscribe.

[Pettytyrant101]

Nope its wanting my money too- are you trying to bankrupt me today Eldo?   

[Eldorion]

Nah, I don't subscribe to any paid news sources myself either.  I dunno why the website let me read it earlier but not now.  Maybe a glitch in their cookies system or something.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am starting to think Netanyahu might actually be properly mad-

'Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has said the operation in Gaza will continue according to Israel's security needs even after Hamas tunnels are destroyed.
Mr Netanyahu said the militant group would pay an "intolerable price" for attacks on Israel.'- BBC

[David H]

I just heard a report on the radio about harassment of Israelis who publicly oppose the war, and another story on the media running pro-invasion ads but refusing to run a list of names of Palestinian children killed (the case is now going to court).

There have been several stories like this among the reports on the Gaza conflict recently. (They've also been careful to report both the Israeli and Palestinian casualties together, like a sports score. I keep expecting a little score box to appear in the corner of the TV screen )

I don't remember hearing anything like this much US media coverage of the divisions within Israel during past conflicts. I wonder if it reflects more division within Israel, or more balanced reporting within the US.  Does anybody have thoughts on this?

[bungobaggins]

It's about time America realized that Israel is just as crazy as the rest of the countries in the Middle East.

[Pettytyrant101]

The UK media has always been more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel but I have noticed an increase in prominent politicians and ex-cabinet ministers giving unofficial personal views on it, which they normally don't, throwing around words like 'foolish' and 'indefensible'- and all have been critical of Israel, far more so than the UK government officially has been.
And even Miliband the Labour opposition leader has come out saying Cameron should be more critical of Israel, and called Israel's actions "wrong and unjustifiable'- so the language from politicians is noticeably stronger than usual.

[Mrs Figg]

Even wimpy Nick Clegg is having a go at Cameron for being silent on the subject

[bungobaggins]

For the American republicans it's been pro-Israel for a long time, because...well...because they're not muslim. (And they think they can convert them to christianity. e.g. Jews for Jesus.)

[Pettytyrant101]

I've never really understood the US complete and utter no matter what approach to supporting Israel.
Whats it based on, it surely cant be just as Bungo states, that they arent muslims?

[David H]

No, it's much older than that. And I think it's much less monolithic than it looks from the outside.

It really goes back to the beginning of Zionism when Germans were still the enemy and Jewish refugees were the victims who came to the USA in millions with stories that would made the blood run cold.

The American Jewish community eventually formed a powerful fundraising and lobbying movement in this country to support their struggles , as did other refugee communities such as the Cubans and the Irish.

Later, rather surprisingly, the Fundamentalist Christian lobby became strong advocates for Zionism, based on Biblical prophesy in Revelations about the importance of a Jewish Israel to the End of Days and the Second Coming. Weird stuff, but from a very influential lobby especially when combined with the older Zionist lobby.

Add to that a remnant of old Colonialist thinking that perceived Israel as our colony in the Middle East, and a remnant of Cold War thinking that saw Israel as uniquely situated to "observe" Russia's sphere of influence, and I think you've got most of the ingredients of America's dogmatic support of Israel.

{{{Eldo, I just made this up to satisfy Petty. Did I miss anything?  }}}

[David H]

This is one of the things that I believe is starting to influence the political climate in North America....

Montevideo (AFP) - Latin America's leaders are among the most vehement in condemning Israel's Gaza offensive -- labelling the Jewish state "terrorist", recalling ambassadors, and offering near-unanimous, unwavering support to Palestinians.

"I can't remember another similar situation where (all the countries in the region) have reacted practically as a bloc," said political scientist Reginaldo Nasser, a professor at the Pontifical University in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

One of the most symbolic recent developments came from Bolivian President Evo Morales -- one of the leaders of Latin America's far left -- who put Israel on its list of "Terrorist States" and eliminated a visa waiver program for Israeli citizens.
....
Brazil President Dilma Rousseff this week called the Israeli military operation a "massacre."

Tensions between the two countries had already escalated a week earlier, when Brazil recalled its envoy from Tel Aviv, a move that prompted Israel's foreign ministry spokesman to call the Latin American powerhouse a "diplomatic dwarf".

Rousseff's condemnation did not go as far as some of her peers. Venezuela President Nicolas Maduro denounced "a war of extermination that has lasted nearly a century" against the Palestinian people. A lawmaker from his party used the term "genocide" -- a term rejected by Rousseff.

Peru, Ecuador, Chile, and El Salvador have also recalled their ambassadors for consultations, while Costa Rica and Argentina, which have the largest Jewish populations in the region, called the Israeli ambassador for meetings at their foreign ministries.

The region has universally condemned the violence from Israeli military operations, urged a ceasefire and the resumption of negotiations between the two sides.

On Thursday, Uruguay President Jose Mujica asked for "an immediate withdrawal" of Israeli troops from Gaza and suggested it may also recall its envoy in Tel Aviv.

Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor expressed "deep disappointment" over the recalls, saying they constituted "encouragement for Hamas, a group recognized as a terror organization by many countries around the world."

Other politically leftist Latin American countries had years earlier broken diplomatic relations with Israel, including Nicaragua in 2010, Venezuela and Bolivia in 2009, after a previous military campaign in Gaza, and Cuba, in 1973, after the Yom Kippur War.

The only somewhat dissonant voice has come from Colombia, where the center-right President Juan Manuel Santos has rejected calls to recall his diplomatic representative in Tel Aviv.

Political scientist Nasser, himself surprised by the nearly unanimous condemnation of Israel, suggested several reasons.

"In the first place, a country today making a declaration against Israel is no longer considered outside international norms," he said.

There is also a link to anti-American sentiments, Nasser said, as a result of Israel's especially close diplomatic relationship to the United States.

But official moves have also reflected public anger at the war, said political scientist Ithai Bras, of the Autonomous University of Mexico.

In recent weeks, several protests across the region, from Mexico to southern Chile, have seen thousands of Latin Americans take to the streets in support of Palestinians.

These pro-Palestinian protests have been larger in Europe and Latin America than in Arab countries, Nasser noted, suggesting the issue speaks to concerns over asymmetrical relations.

Bras said the protests are "an identification with pain, a sentiment of solidarity with what is happening in Latin America," where feelings of oppression are widespread.

[Mrs Figg]

Latin America probably identifies with being the weaker neighbour.

[Pettytyrant101]

No let up in Israeli atrocities- another UN school and shelter for the displaced hit.

According to the UN-

'a "health disaster of widespread proportions" is unfolding in Gaza, with medical services facing collapse.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has described Sunday's attack as "yet another gross violation of international humanitarian law", and said Israel had regularly been informed of the precise location of the school.
"This madness must stop," he said in a statement.

Robert Turner, director of operations for the UN Palestinian refugee agency in Gaza, said: "The locations of all of these installations have been passed to the Israeli military multiple times.
"They know where these shelters are. How this continues to happen, I have no idea."- BBC


Israel however are denying they even hit the place, saying there was fighting in nearby and trying to blame Hamas rockets for hitting the school.
Unfortunately for them among others the BBC had reporters near the school who saw the Israeli shelling occur.

And in further Israeli hostility and madness-

'Delegations from Hamas, which controls Gaza, and Islamic Jihad arrived in Cairo on Sunday for talks with Egyptian and US officials over a possible truce.
However, Israel has said it will not attend the talks.

'there is little sign that Israel is prepared to start tackling the underlying causes of the conflict, such as the crippling economic blockade on Gaza, and Israel's tight control of its airspace and most borders.
Unless that happens, it is feared that another round of violence is simply a matter of time.'- BBC

And I thought this was a telling account reported by a BBC reporter-

'There does seem to be some sign of Israeli forces withdrawing in some parts of the Gaza Strip, particularly in the northern part. Residents in one neighbourhood, Beit Lahiya, have been told they can go back.
One man there told me about 20% of families had returned. They'd been evacuated at the start of this conflict as people were fleeing the bombing and shooting. People were saying militants were using that area to launch rockets into Israel.
I asked one man whether or not he felt safe. He said he thought the situation wasn't safe, but people were phoning him to ask whether or not they should come back. He was telling them they should.
He said the reason for that, in his own words, was: "I would rather die in my own home than in a UN school."'

[Pettytyrant101]

A rare moment of principle in modern UK politics- as Baroness Warsi, of the Foreign Office, resigns from the UK government calling its policy in Gaza "morally indefensible."

Wont make a blind bit of difference to Camerons policy but still nice to see a politician still wiling to put their principles above the paycheck and perks.


Oh and I need to stop watching Fox news regards this subject- put its like having a rotten tooth- you know you shouldn't prod it but you do. Their latest infuriating tactic is to claim Israel are only doing what anyone would do and use the comparison of 'imagine America was having missiles thrown at it from across its borders and its people had to run to shelters every time, how long until the American people demanded their government find those responsible and stop them?"

Which sounds very reasonable- but a truer question would be, 'imagine someone invades America, steals most of the land from Americans, takes their homes, corals the Americans behind a ginormous wall in effect a massive prison, and then controls all comings and goings of everything in and out to the Americans- how long until Americans held behind the wall and deprived of basic needs and all they once owned start using whatever they can to fight back?'

But you wont here that posed on fox news.

[Pettytyrant101]

I really need to stop goin to Fox   
Hannity has achieved a new low in propaganda, even for him, by having a front page piece on "A look at how the Gaza conflict is impacting Israeli children'.

Now nobody should be running for air raid shelters- but the Israeli children killed in this conflict is zero- so what they have been is inconvenienced.
The worse thing said is that 'kids cant play outdoors'.
And the bombshelters are not the WW2 variety- these things are massive with football pitches, playgrounds, trampolines, bouncy campsltes in them. And apparently this means kids in Israel have post traumatic syndrome- so what do they think Palestinian kids are going through?

There at least 700 DEAD Palestinian children so far. Who knows how many wounded or orphaned, or both.
Does Hannity go to Palestinian land to see the damage, speak to the Palestinians, or even mention the Palestinian children dead? No. Not a word.

A very sick piece of journalism (if it can be called that) indeed.

[Pettytyrant101]

This is well worth a watch- reported by the only news company, internet site Vice News, to be embedded with IS -

[Eldorion]

Thanks for posting that, Petty. I've watched a fair bit of Vice's coverage of Iraq and Syria, but hadn't seen that one before.

[bungobaggins]

what a bunch of fucking pigs. kill them all.

[Pettytyrant101]

If only it was that straight forward Bungo.
But many of those who are ordinary folks but backing the movement do so because some aspects of their lives have improved under IS.
Many of those that felt they were treated as second class in their own country.Who saw the neighbourhoods they grew up in become war zones. And because of Islamic law on charity there is a redistribution of wealth- if you are poor and you have children you get $13 per child to help you out.
There is distribution of food, providing of amenities- same as Hezballah does.
Thats how and why they get their backing.

I think its been a huge weakness in the Wests approach that we disregard the populace of countries we go to 'save'.
Iraq is the classic example- Saddam was a murderer but you had clean water, electricity, markets and shops with goods.
After the West went in we disbanded the entire infrastructure, destroyed power station, disbanded police and army- the end result for the people was predictably chaos and anger.

And as that video depressingly illustrates its easy to convince the young that the West is wanting to attack and destroy Muslim states- as the world they have grown up in is one in which Western forces have come to their country and chaos has ensued. You don't need much convincing if all you've ever known was a state of war.

[bungobaggins]

I used to believe what Ron Paul said, that if we left them alone, brought all the troops home, they wouldn't want to kill us. Now I'm not so sure. Even if we do leave Iraq and Afghanistan (which I support), they'll still want to kill us. I'd love to just disregard that entire portion of the world. I've had enough hearing about all their stupid little problems.

Pathetic, bloody region; I've no sympathy at all.

[David H]

I'd love to just disregard that entire portion of the world. I've had enough hearing about all their stupid little problems.

Pathetic, bloody region; I've no sympathy at all.

Funnily enough, this seems to be what we usually feel about any region that we've mined, drilled or stripped for natural resources. West Virginia for example. Those damn ungrateful coal miners! Always whining about something 

[David H]

I used to believe what Ron Paul said, that if we left them alone, brought all the troops home, they wouldn't want to kill us. Now I'm not so sure. Even if we do leave Iraq and Afghanistan (which I support), they'll still want to kill us.

Seriously though Bungo, you're right to doubt that if we leave them alone all will be forgiven. I know of old Americans who are still alive and still hate anything Japanese because of what they did do us at Pearl Harbor in 1941. That's a 73 year grudge about a war we won!

We humans are like that. Most people will get on about their lives if given half a chance, but some will hold a grudge against us for the destruction we caused until their dying breath.  That's their right.  All we can do is try to make it as easy as possible for the majority to get on with life.

[azriel]

This grudge holding business, I know a few like that, pointless waste of life time I think but, hey ho each to his own as you say Dave, I was wondering if some people persistently hold grudges because they have brain washed themselves at some point & they cant now let go ? OR, as in the case of one person I know, Their religion supports their view & God is on their side so, when they roll off to Heaven, God will slap them on the back & say " well done, you kept the *whatevers* off our back !" ? Their particular grudge is a steadfast salvation ?

[Pettytyrant101]

I can understand it better on a personal level, if someone causes you pain then a grudge makes sense even when it might not be logical.
But its weirder at a national scale, especially when the thing that caused the grudge was generations previous.

Quite a lot of Scottish history is like that- the unofficial national anthem, Flower of Scotland, was not written until 1967, but its popularity is in part based on the lyrics which are essentially a grudge against Edward the Black Prince, Hammer of the Scots, in 1296. That's over 600 years.
Grudges can have very long memories when they are carried along within national identity.