Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Pettytyrant101]

Fear most likely, or the fear of fear even. Especially in a small community inside a bigger one like Muslims in the UK. When any smaller group feels under pressure its natural to close ranks. To keep your thoughts to yourself and be careful what you say.
The Muslim Council of Britain has publicly condemned every single killing however.

The UK had a bit of a weird policy for a long time regards Muslims extremists. We let them stay, even encouraged them to come here and preach, its why London got a reputation for being a haven for such people- like Abu Hamza- the deal was that they didn't shit on their own doorstep.
You might remember after the London bombings Blair said in a speech using words with a double meaning that the unofficial deal was off- it was a message to those leaders that the gloves were now off, they broke the deal. Shortly afterwards we started arresting Islamic preachers and raiding Mosques and making arrests and trying to deport.
I am not sure why the deal came about in the first place, I assume it was the intelligence community in the belief that so long as they agreed not to do anything here it was better to have them where we could spy on them with ease rather than have them abroad where we didn't know what they were up to.

As to medieval barbarism- we sent people to other countries to be tortured out of sight and out of the protection of our laws which would prevent such a thing. And a small number of our soldiers have committed atrocities and rapes. Our 'just wars' in Muslim countries have murdered thousands of innocent people. We have supported regimes we know are torturing, raping and murdering their own people. We even continued to support Saddam for more than a decade after he used chemical weapons on the Kurds, who we had provoked into an uprising on the basis we would help them, then we left them to die.
I cant remember which PM said it of Saddam but either it was Major or Blair, appropriating a quote from US President Roosevelt - "Saddam might be a complete bastard. But he is our bastard."

We sadly don't have clean hands either. Or are that far at time from barbarity.
It all depends on where you are standing when the bombs start to fall if we are the good guys or the bad guys.

[Mrs Figg]

yes we have a bad record with war, but we have a good record with day to day living, and thats what people are most interested in. If you live in a free society you are going to have millions of people wanting to migrate to the UK because at home its hellish, not because of war, but because there a good chance you will disappear if you speak out or rebel.

[Eldorion]

we are definately part of the problem. But you have to wonder why they are sinking into medieval barbarism and intolerance. blowing up their own art history is bizarre. the moderates seem to be quiet on the subject, there doesnt seem to be a voice calling for a return to the values of 1000 years ago. Until recently after Alan Hennings murder the ordinary people interviewed on tv outside mosques on the news didnt seem to condemn the beheadings of Westeners very earnestly. it was all a bit half hearted and diffident. nobody seemed angry, its like they were either afraid to speak or didnt care. weird really. but thats my impression.

Not that Muslims should feel compelled to distance themselves from fundamentalist terrorists (we don't expect every church leader to issue a public statement on the evils of abortion bombing or kill the gays legislation), they do.  All the time.  For years.  Here's just a smattering of links from less than a minute of Googling (mostly recent because Google results tend to favor recent news, but you can find way more if you care to actually poke around and investigate biases).

http://muslimscondemningthings.tumblr.com/
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/muslims-are-speaking-out-but-no-one-is-listening-20140930-10nktr.html
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2014/10/10/moderate-muslims-speak-out-against-terrorism/
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-22/notinmyname-young-muslims-speak-out-against-islamic-state/5761392
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/21/muslim-leaders-have-roundly-denounced-islamic-s/200498
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/tam/categories/C167
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11116854/Young-Muslim-women-are-speaking-out-against-the-Islamic-State-in-on-streets-of-London.html

[Pettytyrant101]

I have been watching the coverage on the riots in Ferguson and the protests spreading over the death of the black kid at the hands of the copper.
Seems to me this is a real tricky problem. If we for the moment assume that jury came to the right decision based on the information given then it would not have made a bit of difference if the guy had been white, pink or green- the cop would still have shot him.
But as soon as the person is black this response seems inevitable.

This is one of the reasons I am against armed police. If that had been the UK they would just have tazered the crap out of him and cuffed him.
You lose so much moral right and ground as soon as the state enforces law via a gun barrel.

But as disarming the police is very unlikely to happen in the US the idea of police having cameras on their body that record such events, similar to the military version, seems a sensible first step.

[halfwise]

Yep.

As expected, the testimony on both sides showed the testifier being unfailingly polite while the other party was rude and aggressive. Both can't be true, the reporter Ezra Klein picked about both sides and came out with a possible scenario of dual misreads and escalating aggression.

For some reason the police officer claimed he couldn't use the taser in the initial confrontation. Perhaps because only the face and neck were above the window? I don't know.

[Mrs Figg]

what if the policeman had been Black? would there be riots?, would it have been ok? its ok being shot if the shooter is the same colour as you?. The policeman is White and suddenly he is a member of the KKK. its ridiculous.

[Mrs Figg]

this is quite interesting from the Oxford debating society

[David H]

I don't think it's fair, but I don't think it's ridiculous. Martyrs don't come out of a vacuum. The experience of growing up black is in many ways easier than it's ever been, but in one big way it's a lot harder.

The younger generation of the Black Americans is really the first that has really believed that they have the same rights of other citizens. But over and over they see the double standard in law enforcement, not everywhere of course and not all the time, but at the same time the larger affect unavoidable and almost undeniable. Innocent African Americans of all backgrounds just get arrested and shot more often than innocent white Americans.

That's a hard pill to swallow if you really believe you're entitled to equal rights.

[Mrs Figg]

I think its hard to get over a victim mentality if its engrained into you from Birth. If you think you are a victim you are more likely to fulfil the prophecy. theres nothing more enpowering to the status quo than people believing they are second class citizens. you have to ask why these Young Black men are having a lot to do with the police in the first place. If they were just going about their business and not committing crime.

[Sinister71]

what if the policeman had been Black? would there be riots?, would it have been ok? its ok being shot if the shooter is the same colour as you?. The policeman is White and suddenly he is a member of the KKK. its ridiculous.

Sadly though in America colored people have been taught through the generations that the white people are to blame for their problems. Sadly though they have had generations to get out of the bad situations they are in but their own actions keep dragging them back down and then they blame how they are treated and.... Its a never ending circle. People are more concerned with playing the blame game instead of taking personal responsibility for their own actions. These people rioting are ignorant idiots who as soon as they started, made it more about themselves than the poor dead boy.  Which I have the opinion that had he just followed the officers instructions he would be alive today. Was deadly force necessary i wasn't there so I don't know, but the boy was a criminal who just committed robbery (doesn't matter how small it was, it is still breaking the law) and was not obeying an officer of the law.  

I think its a sad day when a young man wants to fight the law, over a pack of cigars, to the point of losing his life over them. Typical thug mentality which had this boy been taught right from wrong from the beginning he would have never stolen hence he never would have been detained that night, hence he would be alive today.      

And that is as serious as i will get I hate these types of threads because I always tend to piss people off with my point blank common sense views of things    but common sense has never steered me wrong  

[Mrs Figg]

I agree with you Sin, there have been riots in the UK where its just an excuse to loot property.

[Eldorion]

"Generations" to get out of their situation? Jim Crow only ended 50 years ago, and it was followed swiftly by the War on Drugs, which targeted blacks and Latinos disproportionately from the start. Look at shit like the crack vs powder cocaine sentencing disparity for example. There are of course massive obstacles to getting out of poverty for people of any race, but institutionalized racism in housing combined with the negative economic effects that go along with the white flight phenomenon make it even harder.

[Eldorion]

And fuck the idea that "criminal" is a class of person for whom death or any other negative outcome can be written off. Fuck the word "thug", which has been completely corrupted by its use as a racist dog whistle. And fuck anyone who still thinks, in the age of information and easy video recording, that the institution of law enforcement in this country has any moral high ground to stand on. I say this as a cop's stepson and someone who is completely aware of the many good cops and of the necessity of policing in functioning states, but also as someone aware of the US government's history and present pattern of mistreating it's own vulnerable citizens, especially ethnic minorities.

[Sinister71]

slavery was abolished in 1865, so they have had plenty of time to get over that. nobody has ever forced people of color to take drugs over white people. If its present then people will use it as an escape. But if they have money for that wouldn't they also in theory have money for food, shelter, and other "useful" things...

Have people of color always been treated the best? No... they haven't, but they are human beings with free will and thought and can make decisions for themselves. I have never, EVER, treated anyone of any color differently than I expect to be treated myself... Right and wrong is something most people are taught early on in life. In today's society there is no reason for a person of any race to act in an uncivilized manor.

I used the term thug because that is what these hoodlum punks who think they are above the law act like. They certainly aren't law abiding citizens. Whether they like the laws of society or not, they are still in place to keep order in society. If they want to make change they need to strive  to make themselves better so they can make necessary changes... Things like Theft are not acceptable, nor is murder, vandalism, physical abuse, or braking any laws that are put in place. whether I agree with them or not, which does include resisting a police officers directions.

If there is some misdeed on the officers behalf you press charges after the fact, and it will be fairly dealt with. Contrary to the belief of sections of people. Justice is blind (or is supposed to be), some people might not like the outcome. that's why we have juries.

What happened in Ferguson was a tragedy but one that could have been avoided if a young punk who had just committed robbery, decided to disobey an officer of the laws direct orders. Had he simply obeyed the orders and dealt with possible discipline as a young adult as he should have. He would be alive today. and to honor his memory I guess people in Ferguson felt looting and acting like complete asses would solve anything other than bring more misery down upon the very cause they constantly complain about. feeding into peoples perceptions of those people. Instead of rising above it, to show they are better than that, they did exactly what every racist redneck in Alabama said they would do

I know plenty of ethnic minorities, who have rose above the stereotype placed upon them, and are thriving. Why because they chose to make things better for themselves. Everyone can make something of themselves, they just have to go through the proper channels and expect hard work and persistence involved. Not some free hand out  that automatically makes life all better.

[Mrs Figg]

many people are part of minorities who are discriminated against, a lot of people are discriminated against because they are gay or disabled or a woman, transgender or old. Do these people turn to crime because they feel disenfranchised? do they hang out on Street corners selling drugs because theres nothing else to do? no the fuck they dont, they get on with life the best they can, without being drunk, or robbing old ladies. Being poor is no excuse to go on riots to steal trainers and burn down shops. People know policemen have guns, so keep the fuck away from trouble, keep away from the police, in the UK Black girls are out-performing White boys in school, they are ambitious and work hard, they dont take any shit and they get on with life. They dont have a chip on their shoulder about what happened a hundred years ago.

[Eldorion]

slavery was abolished in 1865, so they have had plenty of time to get over that.

They dont have a chip on their shoulder about what happened a hundred years ago.

It's a fucking travesty we still have the myth that slavery just went away after the Civil War.

http://www.slaverybyanothername.com/the-book/

nobody has ever forced people of color to take drugs over white people. If its present then people will use it as an escape. But if they have money for that wouldn't they also in theory have money for food, shelter, and other "useful" things...

Drug addiction affects people of all races and socioeconomic classes.  But it's not a coincidence that drugs which are more commonly used by poor people are given harsher sentences than drugs more commonly used by white people.  Or that the primary victims of mass incarceration are minorities (though it's become more of class-based thing over time; there are certainly millions of white and latino people who have suffered because of the War on Drugs and the prison policies that go along with that.  The infamous school-to-prison pipeline is but the most egregious example of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/

Have people of color always been treated the best? No... they haven't, but they are human beings with free will and thought and can make decisions for themselves. I have never, EVER, treated anyone of any color differently than I expect to be treated myself... Right and wrong is something most people are taught early on in life. In today's society there is no reason for a person of any race to act in an uncivilized manor.

I don't know you personally, Sin, so I'm not trying to say anything about who you are or what your life is like.  And I'm certainly not trying to detract from the agency that belongs to each and every person.  But the fact remains that multi-generational poverty closes door to people (regardless of race), and that a disproportionate number of poor people in America are minorities, largely because of patterns that are ingrained in our social institutions and have been for decades and centuries, which belies the whole "all that bad stuff is in the past now" argument.

I used the term thug because that is what these hoodlum punks who think they are above the law act like. They certainly aren't law abiding citizens. Whether they like the laws of society or not, they are still in place to keep order in society. If they want to make change they need to strive  to make themselves better so they can make necessary changes... Things like Theft are not acceptable, nor is murder, vandalism, physical abuse, or braking any laws that are put in place. whether I agree with them or not, which does include resisting a police officers directions.

I'm certainly not here to advocate for theft or murder, but the whole "law = good, end of discussion" thing strikes me as massively disingenuous when the law and the whole system of government goes out of its way to prop up certain groups over others.  We've certainly come a long way with this over the past century or so -- with race, with gender, and more recently with sexual orientation -- but it strikes me as counterproductive to just say "well you have to play your part in the system" when the system actively works against so many people.

Just to be clear, I'm not an anarchist; I think that doing away with governments would cause more harm than good and I'm unconvinced by most of the proposed replacements that get brought up.  But I think it's very important to keep in mind both the good and the bad aspects of our system of laws and government (while also recognizing that it's possible to have a more equitable and just system).

If there is some misdeed on the officers behalf you press charges after the fact, and it will be fairly dealt with. Contrary to the belief of sections of people. Justice is blind (or is supposed to be), some people might not like the outcome. that's why we have juries.

It certainly happens from time to time -- my step-mom has worked in Internal Affairs for much of her career and I know that there are cops who genuinely want to stamp out abuse and corruption within their profession -- but there at least as many IA officers who just want to make the department look good, and the judicial system is extremely generous to police officers who are accused of crimes.

http://www.thenation.com/article/190937/why-its-impossible-indict-cop
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7173695/ferguson-police-officer-prosecution

What happened in Ferguson was a tragedy but one that could have been avoided if a young punk who had just committed robbery, decided to disobey an officer of the laws direct orders. Had he simply obeyed the orders and dealt with possible discipline as a young adult as he should have. He would be alive today. and to honor his memory I guess people in Ferguson felt looting and acting like complete asses would solve anything other than bring more misery down upon the very cause they constantly complain about. feeding into peoples perceptions of those people. Instead of rising above it, to show they are better than that, they did exactly what every racist redneck in Alabama said they would do

First of all, why is it the responsibility of protesters in Ferguson to go out of their way to cater to racists?

Second, the notion that peaceful protest is the only legitimate means of political expres​sion(besides voting) is one that is very selectively applied: look at how the media reports on protests in different countries based on how friendly they feel towards the government in power, or simply how they discuss riots depending on the skin color of the majority of the majority of people present (I apologize for the click-baity headline but this was one of the first Google results when I was trying to find a citation).

http://mic.com/articles/101766/one-perfect-tweet-calls-out-the-hypocrisy-of-how-the-media-talks-about-black-violence

Also, while I'm not going to cheerlead for looting or arson, it is undeniable that such actions have brought greater attention and scrutiny to the Brown case and to the broader cause of the protesters.  You see this in political movements the world over, even ones that are today famed for the non-violence of their most famous leaders, like the Indian independence movement or the African-American civil rights movement.  Political violence is a thing that happens.  If the vast majority of Americans believe that a tax on tea in the 1770s was sufficient justification for property damage, than how the hell can you argue that death is not?  (Fun fact: the Boston Tea Party was led by hardened unrepentant criminals, but for some reason John Hancock is considered a national hero today.  Is it because he was white, or because he was rich?  You decide!)

[Mrs Figg]

there is no doubt that Black people in the US have to face discrimination, lets face it, the only people ON EARTH, who dont face some kind of discrimination are White middle class men with posh accents. Its far more dangerous to be a woman than a Black man, women are killed every day for just being women. I have faced discrimination becauseI am a woman and discrimination because I have a Northern accent. Theres discrimination enough to go round for everyone, gay, fat, ginger, Jew, or old. You just have to get over it and not allow Others to determine your destiny. In the UK as regards jobs theres positive discrimination and quotas, where ethnic minorities are favoured, theres political correctness which prevents Black kids not having equality with Whites. I dont know about the US situation, and I know its only since Rosa Parks in the 60s that there wasnt apparteid, its a long struggle and I get that. Its not going to go away anytime soon, but the victim mindset is not going to help, or the high criminality in Black communities, plus the gang culture of aggression and macho posturing. It doesnt help vulnerable young kids to thrive, parents have a duty to make their kids go to school and get out of the poverty cycle. I have nothing but sympathy for people who are discriminated just because of how they look, gender, or colour, but its life and you just have to sink or swim.

[Eldorion]

I hear what you're saying, but I think that you have to understand the social and economic circumstances of any sort of oppression (be it racial, gender-based, sexual orientation, etc). "Personal responsibility" is not enough to overcome ingrained discrimination (especially when violence is involved) for women or minorities. There needs to be larger-scale social change.

[chris63]

[Pettytyrant101]

The deeply worrying and troubling UK high profil pedo ring keeps turning up more and more-

'A FIREBRAND SNP activist who died in mysterious circumstances was to expose a paedophile ring that would have brought down the Government.
Willie McRae was said to have discovered child abuse by cabinet ministers and other leading members of the establishment on both sides of the Border. Shortly before his death he was seen photocopying a dossier of names in case something should happen to him.
McRae never went public with his allegations as he was found shot dead in his car off a remote road in Wester Ross on April 6, 1985.
His death also came just months after the late Tory MP Geoffrey Dickens handed his own infamous paedophile dossier to then Home Secretary Leon Brittan – only for it to be lost or destroyed by Home Office officials.
Before leaving Glasgow for his cottage near Kintail, Wester Ross, the 62-year-old showed a briefcase of documents to a friend, PC Donald Morrison, and told him: “I’ve got them this time.”
However, despite phoning ahead to ask for the fire to be lit, he never made it to his destination.
Instead, his body was found the next morning off the A87, with a bullet wound to his head. A gun was near the car leading to the suicide verdict.
His briefcase or the documents it contained have never been found.'- Sunday Express

'A MAN has claimed that he was abused as a teenager while working at the Royal Family’s Scottish home.
The then-16-year-old alleged that he was sexually assaulted at Balmoral Castle, on Royal Deeside, Aberdeenshire, and at Buckingham Palace.
Shocking Home Office files say the lad was was abused by a VIP paedophile ring operating within Royal residencies.
The claims were passed to then Home Secretary, Leon Brittan, who ruled it was ‘not practical’ to investigate.'- Sunday Mail

Funny how often Leon Brittan's name comes up as someone covering up, refusing to investigate or hiding this stuff.

[Mrs Figg]

bloody hell! this is Pandoras Box

[Orwell]

If a Grand Jury indicts someone - then Justice has automatically been done?

If a Grand Jury fails to indict someone - then you burn cars and houses?

The Rule of Law or the Rule of the Mob?

If you don't get what you want under the Rule of the Law you either: (1) Appeal the decision through the Courts? or (2) burn cars and houses?

What actually happened to generate this problem is irrelevent it seems. Only politics matters --- and the ever-present resort to Mob Violence. Elias Canetti and 'Crowds and Powers' is my subtext. Scary. Finding the actual truth is not a player it seems, as always.

[Eldorion]

That snappy little summary sort of brushes aside the fact that -- far from ignoring it -- most of the protesters are objecting to systematic flaws within the United States' system of "the rule of law".

[halfwise]

I salute the Charles Barkleys and Pharrell Williams of the world who are brave enough to be black and still say the grand jury probably did the right thing: looking at the conflicting testimony I don't see how they could have done otherwise. It disturbing to see people reflexively pass judgement on something they never witnessed in person.

Having said that, Eldo is right in that if the atmosphere around the whole situation had felt less like prison wardens and prisoners there would not be so much protest. Though segments of the minority populations often do bring it on themselves by acting like victims or glorifying the criminal class, the fact is the rest live under type casting conditions.

I was in a jury once which was 10 blacks and 2 whites. We two whites were holding up a conviction because we felt it came down to a police officer's word against the defendant. It was the blacks who were saying the police officer was on the right side and should be given proper weight. So though there are a bunch of yahoo knee-jerk protesters out there, there is also a very large and thoughtful segment who are experiencing something most of us do not, and are using this opportunity to point out larger scale problems.

One woman was asked if the police officer offering his resignation would help defuse the situation, and she basically said at this point he was irrelevant, it was long past being about him.

[Eldorion]

I agree with most of what Halfy says.  From my admittedly limited understanding of the law, I think the grand jury made the legally sound decision, but I think that the laws (and court rulings) that we have about the lethal use of force by police officers are way too broad.  And of course, the local police bungled their handling of the protests from the very beginning, and the state police have not been that much better.