Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Pettytyrant101]

Like I said above she should not be in this position- its not fair on her apart from anything else- imagine she does find something out- its not like this is dodgy expenses claims or something- she would be laying the charge of aiding and abetting the cover up of the procurement of children from children's homes as sex slaves for the rich and powerful.

Thats a hell of a call to ask someone to make on their own family. No matter who you are or how impartial and illustrious your career. Nor does it seem fair to expect her too.

[Mrs Figg]

Former Tory children's minister Tim Loughton stressed the inquiry was "not a one woman show" and Lady Butler-Sloss would have a panel of independently-minded people working with her.

"Frankly, I despair," he told the BBC. "We're getting to the stage where even if the Queen were asked to chair this inquiry, there would be those saying there's a conflict of interest. If I'd been the home secretary, I would've appointed Elizabeth Butler-Sloss as well.

"We need somebody who has huge integrity, who has respect, who has great independence and has the expertise and knowledge to focus this inquiry... there are few people able to do it and Elizabeth Butler-Sloss is the obvious choice." BBC

this says it all really

[Pettytyrant101]

How good she is, how great her career, how respected and impartial she is is utterly irrelevant, the public doesn't know who she is from joe bloggs- she has to be above all reproach and questioning- and she is not, she will have to investigate her own family- that casts doubts, no matter how unfounded.
This is probably the largest, most significant, far reaching enquiry in modern British politics- and as the whole thing was sparked by a cover up thats been partly uncovered it just cannot have anyone with any question marks hanging over them heading it- that should be obvious to Cameron an co- the public wont buy it or believe it.

The whole point of this enquiry is to assure the public everything is being done, everything investigated and that there will be no cover up. Anything which undermines that is a major problem.

[Mrs Figg]

firstly how good she is all that matters, everything else is just spin. I wonder if the integrity of a male ex judge would be causing so much stink if he had a sister who was a retired high court judge. I doubt it. People seem to be saying, 'oh shes perfect for the job, but she wont criticize her brother', thats really insulting.

[Pettytyrant101]

No they are saying there is a conflict of interest in the head of the enquiry having to possibly implicit or let off her own brother.

If she was still a judge and her brother was up for trial she would not be allowed to be the judge in his case- why should this be different, especially when the charges are so serious and the integrity of the entire political system in the UK is on trial?

[Mrs Figg]

her Brother committed no crime that we know of, nor did she know anything about the alleged 'letting off' of the spy guy.

[Pettytyrant101]

He was the Attorney general almost the entire time the scandal was at its height from the late seventies to the late 80's.
He was involved in an alleged cover up of a paedophile during that time in office.

The representative for the victims put it well in the Guardian piece on it-

"To give an analogy, it would be rather like appointing someone who was a close relative of the head of South Yorkshire police, however eminent a judge, to chair the Hillsborough inquiry. [The inquiry] will lose credibility.
Picking someone who will be seen at the start potentially by survivors as someone who is very much of the establishment, linked to the establishment at the time, is not going to give people any confidence to come forward and be frank and fearless in front of this inquiry."

[azriel]

Thats key here I think. Victims do have to feel safe & secure to give their story. Also, to weedle info out of someone you must make them feel relaxed enough & feel that you are not the enemy or going to crucify them at the 1st opportunity.How does anyone expect the truth to come out if the person you are being 'interviewed' by is part of the problem ? If someone does have a vital 'something to say' it would be nice to think they could say 'it' & not have it mysteriously vanish........again.

[Pettytyrant101]

Agree entirely Azriel. You cant have potential victims having to give evidence to someone they cannot be sure is 100% impartial and not a part of the problem.

[Mrs Figg]

her brother doesnt effect her ability for impartiality, judges at her level have spent a lifetime being impartial. theres something about these objections that stink.

[Pettytyrant101]

I dont see how you cant see a problem in a member of the very establishment under investigation, with a brother under investigation, conducting the investigation.

I would think the problem was obvious. Its a conflict of interests- a significant enough one that it should rule her out of the job- especially if the representative of the victims believes it might dissuade some victims from speaking out or giving their evidence.

Thats surely a problem?

[Mrs Figg]

In my opinion its a witchhunt, she has put a lot of noses out of joint during her stint in family law, where she put children first.

[Pettytyrant101]

I dont understand that thinking at all Figg- I dont see the need to go making wild unfounded accusations of witchhunts when there is a blindingly obvious conflict of interest surrounding her.

Why would the victms have a witchunt against her- that doesnt make any sense.

[Pettytyrant101]

A day of mass strikes in the UK today, with  the fire-fighters, passport officers, public sector staff, binmen, local authority civil service workers, housing, youth workers, teachers in England and Wales (Scottish education is separate, and besides our schools are off on summer hols at the mo), and London transport workers, all out on strike for the day.

Its over the governments pay freeze and then an increase of 1% per year- so they had a three year pay freeze and then a 1% increase- during which time the cost of living has inflated by 20%

But if Cameron gets his way this might be the last strike ever- as he pans to legislate for a minimum percent needed in a strike ballot, rather than the straight majority it is at the moment.

Which is a bit of a cheek for a man heading a government elected on less than 25% of the vote.

If we had a 50% threshold for MP's I dont think there is a single sitting MP would have qualified for being elected.

[Pettytyrant101]

'A man cut off his penis with a knife in a packed London restaurant.
Police were forced to use CS gas to restrain the man when they entered the Zizzi restaurant in The Strand on Sunday evening.
A Metropolitan Police spokeswoman said the man was aged between 30 and 40 and that his injuries were self-inflicted.
The man was then taken to hospital in south London where his condition is stable. It is understood surgeons were unable to reattach his penis.' - BBC


   

[Pettytyrant101]

'Fears are being raised that the NHS in England will no longer be free at the point of use within 10 years.
Nearly half of the 78 health and care leaders surveyed by the Nuffield Trust felt the status quo would not remain because of the squeeze on funding.
The warning comes after similar claims by the Health Select Committee and bodies such as the Royal College of Nursing and Royal College of GPs in the past fortnight.
But Health Minister Lord Howe said: "These predictions are pessimistic and paint an unrealistic picture of how our NHS is working."- BBC


One thing this government does well is denial- they seem to be experts at the ostrich manoeuvre of sticking their head sin the sand and just repeating- no everything is fine just like we say it is. No matter the evidence against them- we have seen this in the referendum debate over and over- an important body or person will point out the government have been talking through their hat- like when the leading UK professor on EU law said Scotland would be accepted into Eu without much fuss and quickly- and all the government could do was repeat its completely contradictory message of , "No you wont because that s our line and we are just going to keep repeating it no matter what."

If England doesn't wake up soon to this they will have no NHS left worth the name, no local authority schools worth the name and no ability to protest any of it by lawful striking.

[Mrs Figg]

I dont understand that thinking at all Figg- I dont see the need to go making wild unfounded accusations of witchhunts when there is a blindingly obvious conflict of interest surrounding her.

Why would the victms have a witchunt against her- that doesnt make any sense.

Your last statement was a wild unfounded accusation, and pretty weird, why on earth would the victims have a witch hunt against her? My statement was nothing to do with victims but the establishment and certain lobby groups who she has pissed off over the years, because she has put children before adults in a lot of cases.
this is what she said last year....this is a woman who cares deeply about child victims..

Sexualisation of children 'risks softening attitudes towards abuse'

Adults are failing to take child abuse seriously because of the increasing sexualisation of young girls, a former High Court judge has warned.

''Overexposure to inappropriate images is blunting attitudes towards sex attacks on under-16s, said Baroness Butler-Sloss, who chaired the Cleveland Child Abuse Inquiry.
She suggested there was a danger that under-age girls were no longer being seen as victims because of perceptions over the way some children act and dress.
Speaking amid a continuing fall out over the Jimmy Savile scandal, the judge also hit out at the “old fashioned” attitude towards sexual abuse victims in some local authorities and police forces.
The controversy should act as a “wake-up call” in the way society deals with child protection issues, she said'' Ministers have pledged to protect young people from advertising, marketing and media content that exposes them to inappropriate images or commercial pressures.

It follows a high-profile report from Reg Bailey of the Mothers’ Union who called for action to shield children from the "increasingly sexualised wallpaper surrounding them".
Baroness Butler-Sloss, former president of the Family Court division of the High Court, was asked on Radio 4’s Today programme whether sexualised images caused child abuse.
She said it was not a driver of the original problem, insisting it was often “innate” in the perpetrators of sex attacks on under-16s.
But she added: “I think it encourages people not to take it seriously”.
The peer said that some adults “didn’t think that these girls were victims” and insisted there was a “complete misunderstanding of… the fact that the law is there to protect children and you don’t start treating children under 16 as bad girls”.
“You start saying how can these children be protected from this sort of behaviour? It is the men who are to blame, not the girls,” she said.
Baroness Butler-Sloss also said the scandal was a "wake up call” to society, adding that "some police officers in some forces" had an "old fashioned" view of sexual abuse victims.
''What worries me about Jimmy Savile and the appalling story is everybody will be terribly upset for a while and then it will die down," she said.
.

The comments come amid growing concerns over the sexualisation of children. the Telegraph 2013

[Mrs Figg]

'Fears are being raised that the NHS in England will no longer be free at the point of use within 10 years.
Nearly half of the 78 health and care leaders surveyed by the Nuffield Trust felt the status quo would not remain because of the squeeze on funding.
The warning comes after similar claims by the Health Select Committee and bodies such as the Royal College of Nursing and Royal College of GPs in the past fortnight.
But Health Minister Lord Howe said: "These predictions are pessimistic and paint an unrealistic picture of how our NHS is working."- BBC


One thing this government does well is denial- they seem to be experts at the ostrich manoeuvre of sticking their head sin the sand and just repeating- no everything is fine just like we say it is. No matter the evidence against them- we have seen this in the referendum debate over and over- an important body or person will point out the government have been talking through their hat- like when the leading UK professor on EU law said Scotland would be accepted into Eu without much fuss and quickly- and all the government could do was repeat its completely contradictory message of , "No you wont because that s our line and we are just going to keep repeating it no matter what."

If England doesn't wake up soon to this they will have no NHS left worth the name, no local authority schools worth the name and no ability to protest any of it by lawful striking.

I would get your own house in order before you criticize the 'English' NHS.

SCOTLAND'S top doctor yesterday branded our crisis-hit NHS a “car crash” – and blamed hopeless politicians for the disaster.
Dr Brian Keighley launched an astonishing tirade at the Scottish Government over swingeing cuts that have caused chaos on the wards and led to “unacceptable” standards of care.
He said A&E departments, cancer treatment and care for the elderly have all been devastated as the axe has been taken to budgets.
The British Medical Association Scotland chief also warned voters they may have to pay more tax to fund the NHS properly – regardless of the outcome of the independence referendum.
The Record has regularly exposed failings in the NHS in recent years, despite the Scottish Government insisting there is no crisis.
And yesterday Dr Keighley warned the situation is dire – and will get even worse if politicians don’t act.
He said: “What I have seen over the past five years is the continuing crisis management of the longest car crash in my memory – and it is time for our politicians to face up to some very hard questions.

“We have a crisis of out-of-hours health provision that sees huge and unacceptable queues at A&E departments.
“We see reports of geriatric provision coming under increasing criticism through inadequate care packages and increasing bed blocking and, at the same time GPs coping with a 20 per cent increase in workload.
“We see vital cancer treatments delayed because of unsustainable cost and we see cracks emerging in hospital food, cleanliness, staff shortages and vacancies within both the consultant body and GP trainees.”
His comments at the BMA’s annual conference came in his last speech before he steps down as chairman of the organisation, who represent the country’s doctors.
Scottish Labour’s health spokesman Neil Findlay last night said Dr Keighley’s comments were proof the SNP have presided over an NHS crisis since coming to power in 2007.

He said: “It’s time for Health Secretary Alex Neil to listen to what healthcare professionals are repeatedly telling him about the state of the NHS in Scotland.
Last month, opposition parties at Holyrood united to pass a motion of no confidence in the Health Secretary. But the SNP minister last night defended his party’s handling of the health service.

june 2014 david clegg

[Pettytyrant101]

I would get your own house in order before you criticize the 'English' NHS.- Figg

You dont half have a chip on your shoulder over this Figg! So if I make any comment on any news story thats abut England, at all- I am attacking England?

Rather then the much more obvious and apparent fact that this story was all over this mornings UK news?
Had it been a story about the Scottish NHS facing privatisation within 10 years you can bet your arse I would have been posting that to complain very loudly about the prospect.

I was in no way, except in your head, comparing Scotland to England, merely commenting on the news story about the English NHS that was the headline on the BBC news site this morning- or maybe the journalist that wrote it was just having a go at England too!

As to comparing the two the Scottish NHS has all the same austerity cuts to suffer as the English, which has put them both in peril- the difference so far is that the Scottish NHS has not gone down the privatisation route the way England has but quite the opposite.

But when it comes to the NHS I think the only figure worth anything is the satisfaction rating of those who use it.

And if you want a comparison, then here's those figures to compare-

'Findings just released from the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey (SSAS) 2013 have found satisfaction with Scotland’s NHS increased by over 20 per cent since 2005. 85 per cent of Scottish inpatients say their overall care and treatment was good or excellent, and 87 per cent also rated the overall care from their GP surgery as good or excellent too.'

The figures for England are-

61% of people were satisfied with the NHS, compared with 58% in 2011.

The industry OUR NHS site says-

'Since devolution, the NHS in Scotland has taken a very different path to that of NHS England. It has embraced co-operation rather than competition. And new figures show that Scots reckon that it delivers for them.
Whilst it’s for voters in England to decide the future of their NHS, polls suggest that most people in England don’t want a privatised NHS either. Scotland’s NHS demonstrates that a better way is possible and popular.'

[Mrs Figg]

just counteracting the drip drip drip of cybernat propaganda. its funny you never criticize Scottish scandals and mess just English ones. just sayin.

[Pettytyrant101]

'cybernats' is just another attempt to make all those who support independence out to be rabid nutters.

What so called 'cybernats' really are are lots of Scots who have gone out and dug up as much info as they can and been dismayed at how the NO side as blatantly been lying, manipulating and telling at best half truths to the people of Scotland and are trying to put the facts across.

Most comments sections on any newspaper or BBC story to do with Independence will have lots of folk countering NO propaganda with information and links for people to go look themselves.

I call that grass roots democracy.

And even if the vote is for NO one good thing to have come out of this will have been the public engagement- never in my lifetime has politics been so much in peoples minds, never have I known so many town hall meetings and discussions all over the country.

And that has to be for the good.

To just name call those who are engaging in the debate is to do Better Together's work for them.


As to commenting on only English scandals, that's simply not true- but in case you haven't noticed England is considerably larger than Scotland and has most of the countries power and finances based there- so there is simply more scandal there, not to mention we have an english centric media which tends to only mention other nations in the UK when something bad happens there.

And if I comment on scandal at Westminster or similar for now I am commenting on scandal not in England, another country, but in my Parliament for my country. And I have as much right as anyone else in the UK to have a view on those matters- its not just the English who are allowed to talk about Westminster- its not their Parliament. Its the UK's.

[Mrs Figg]

views with a HUGE bias. just imagine for a moment if I made post after post ad nauseum about how crap Scottish politicians are, would it start to irk you after months of it, or would you just meekly agree and take it up the arse? what if you knew the other side of the argument was not being heard? I am just giving the other side of the argument but you seem to be taking it personally. My views on Baroness Sloss are as valid as yours, my views on the NHS are as valid as yours, why get insulting about it?

[azriel]

Sorry guys but, on the Southern news tonight I heard several people are not happy with Sloss being on the board at all. They are saying she hid up several important elements during the Bishop Paedo scandal here in the South East. Plus several people say shes to involved in the sense that her (now deceased) brother held a powerful position at the height of the paedo allegations back in the 80/90s

[Pettytyrant101]

why get insulting about it?- Mrs Figg

Me getting insulting about it?!   

I have disagreed with you, I have not called you names or questioned your motivations as you have me just in the last few pages alone-

'We all know Petty hates Cameron and blames him for everything...you wont be able to propagandize for the 'we hate the English gvt club'

'I would get your own house in order before you criticize the 'English' NHS.'

'its funny you never criticize Scottish scandals and mess just English ones.'

All personal comments slanted to imply I hate the english. Thats insulting.

Nor am I complaining about only english MP's as you imply when you say how would I like it if someone rubbished Scottish MP's, I am not rubbishing english politicians at all, I am rubbishing British politicians in the British parliament, Cameron is the PM of my country, he is not just PM of England.

I choose the big news stories of the last few days here to discuss- the scandal at Westminster and the enquiry appointed, the report on the NHS ect and I get accusations and insinuations thrown back at me in response.





'they are saying she hid up several important elements during the Bishop Paedo scandal here in the South East. Plus several people say shes to involved in the sense that her (now deceased) brother held a powerful position at the height of the paedo allegations back in the 80/90's'- Azriel

I just dont see how they can have a someone head this up who has a vested interest- no matter how great her record or how impeccable- it will always leave doubt over the verdicts she comes to, whether thats fair or not, and this enquiry is to important for there to be any questions hanging over the enquiry.

Trouble is Cameron already has plenty opposition charges against him for poor decision making, if he backs down on this its tantamount to admitting he made another mistake and opposition will make political capital out of it and make him look weak, and if he doesn't he risks the whole enquiry being undermined before it starts.

[azriel]

Which ever way you look at it, Cameron is doomed. He'll suffer embarrassment but, Im sure a healthy pension will ease the pain a tad. Its the victims of abuse that will feel hurt & let down all over again if this all goes belly up. Put pride away & deal with whats staring you in the face ! who are the important ones here ? Not Cameron, Not Lady Sloss. They will be sitting pretty for a good while. Things are easier to bear when staring at the bottom of a Brandy glass. Finding an unbiased, neutral, law abiding individual that gets the backing from both officialdom & public alike, is like watching it snow in summer !