Doctor Who [8]

Yeah, the messianic angle is perhaps debatable. I quite liked some of those stories, I've praised Cold War to you in the past, but in Time of the Doctor it's still the Doctor beig the most powerful being in the Universe. Saying this town won't fall to the combind armies of the Universe because I say so.

And that's one aspect of the Doctors character I was hoping Moffat would be trying to get away from.

Really the problem for me is putting the Doctor center stage. And he seldom was in the original series. It was always the mystery, the story, the problem that was important. The Doctor was a necessity, but incidental. And when he wasn't, like in Invasion of Time, the story was worse off for it.

RTD tried adressing it by putting the companion center stage, but that never worked for me either. That just meant spending a lot of time on the Doctor campanion relationship.

So to sum up, I'm kind of hoping Moffat will move in that direction at least with Cipaldi.

I think its a Moffat thing. whether its the Doctor or Sherlock, he is always the Sun around everyone must orbit. He is more important than the story. Sherlock is all about Sherlock, the story is there to showcase his brilliance, in the Doctors case its the assistants that are there to worship at his feet being the most powerful being in the Universe.

Rose worshipped the Doctor right till the end, which cant be said for Amy, and I dont think Clara worships him either.
Martha had a fair bit of 10 worship going on too.

Rory confronts the Doctor directly on several occasions and questions his decisions.

River is always pulling 11 down a peg or two or pointing out home truths to him.

So I dont think companions in the Moffat era do worship him.

Moffat goes out of his way to first show how the Doctor has 'become a legend'' when he gets rid of the Atraxi in a very 10 manner- by telling them to look him up then to run. The Doctor then gives the Stone Henge speech (which is really the start of his fall from delusion as its a con and his smugness at making them run away is soon revealed to be misplaced).
Then when he realises someone is so scared of him they are trying to kill him by using his time line against him and creating River she drives home to him in A Good Man Goes to War what he has become "Did you real think, all those years ago when you set out, that you would become this? The man who can turn an army around at the mere mention of his name.Doctor. The name for wise man and healer. We get that name from you. But if you carry on as you are, what might that name come to mean?"

The Doctor then goes on to remove himself from history prompting River to later tease him with "Didn't you used to be someone?"

So I think RTD created the messianic Doctor- with 10 floating like Jesus on the population of earth chanting his name- and Moffat rather than just ignore it has taken it on head on and got rid of it, just as he did the other erroneous events in the RTD era with the Cracks in Time.

nope its all Moffat, he's living vicariously through his characters. Bit like a Marvel comic character, he's doing all the things he wants to do through them. So everyone who meets Sherlock falls under his spell, and The Doctor can stand on a Platform shouting at his assembled enemies to run away cos he's the bestest.

oh and Rose didnt worship him, it was a love between equals. She never gushed and smarmed like River did.

I think you raise some interesting points about Moffat deconstructing the Doctor as a Messiah character, Petty. Though I do feel there was a whole lot of it still present in Time of the Doctor.

As Moffat says in your singature, we don't need another hero like all the others. The great thing about the Doctor is he can be different. I think he's been written a bit too much like a regular hero in the new series though. And perhaps that is the basis for some of my problems with it.

I think you have a point, Figg. Though I would say both the Doctor and Sherlock Holmes are basically magnetic characters to begin with. They do fascinate and draw people to them. That it becomes and issue when that is overstated is something I agree with though.

anywayz I am bowing out of the Moffat debate, I see a familiar pattern emerging   

The Doctor can stand on a Platform shouting at his assembled enemies to run away cos he's the bestest.
oh and Rose didnt worship him, it was a love between equals. She never gushed and smarmed like River did.- Mrs Figg


The speech you refer to is there to prick his ego and bring him down- he only thinks he has scared everyone off with his big speech, the whole thing is a trap and a set up and he is the only one who doesnt know whats going on. Hardly messianic to be completely wrong.

The speech is 9 and 10 talking through 11- he even uses a 9 phrase- "I am talking!" and he is immediately brought down by his own ego and ends up captured and trapped begging and peading to be allowed to go free to try to save everyone. Not very god like.

It is in fact a part of the arc which runs right to the end of Moffat bringing the Doctor down a few pegs, the theme is continued through the Silence Kovarian arc where he is acting in the dark against enemies who only exist, in Rivers words, 'out of fear of you'.

And Rose does worship the ground 10 walks on- she cant even survive without a 10 clone to live with.
And I have never seen it as a relationship of equals- she is 20 year old girl from earth with almost no life experience and he is 1000 year old Time Lord with knowledge spanning all of space and time- it was never going to be equal, and it was more than a little creepy in my opinion.

Nor does Rose have the balls like River to completely challenge his assumptions about himself as she does at Demons Run (Donna does but not Rose)- Rose just goes damp when 10 does all his 'Oncoming storm' dark and moody hero stint.


I also dont understand how you can seriously claim its all Moffat- the messianic Doctor got a few hints in the 7th Doctor era in particular with suggestions he was 'more than a mere Time Lord' but it was RTD in NuWho ran with it and elevated it to the point where merely getting enough people to chant 'Doctor' over and over somehow has the ability to make him 'rise back up' quite literally and float, in crucifixion pose, in a halo of light over his enemies smiting them.
It was RTd era gave us the name Oncoming Storm, and a Doctor who suddenly had the ability to punish enemies for all eternity in every mirror everywhere- when did he become a God? Somewhere in the RTD era.


How exactly was that Moffats fault?

Its a far cry from 11 (or 4 for that matter) questioning his right to make these judgements, and questioning his own judgments and struggling to live with them (as in Town called Mercy or The Snowmen or several others in the Moffat era culminating in the 50th Anniversary which is all about him dealing with his own judgements and his right to make them)

Yeah... Not biting.

Nothing to bite Amarie- that RTD pushed the messianic Doctor thing and that Moffat has been deconstructing it since he took over is self-evident and comes with an overwhelming amount of supporting evidence.

Sure. Whatever you say.

Yes, I agree with you that it seems plain that Moffat has been working in that direction. The 50th alone speaks loudly about just that. He must have been fuming behind RTDs back about some of the changes the way he has approached them after he took over. That lifts him in my consideration no end.

In my opinion a lot of it remains in the Time of the Doctor though. And it has been a problem for me with 11s era. But as I said, the classic series wasn't blameless here either so maybe it's better to judge him on the next season.

I want less of the "I will hold off the entire Universe on my own" approach. We'll se how it turns out.  

There are a whole list of 11 era episodes that deal with or touch on the idea of the Doctor becoming to big for his boots or being too easily recognised or just trading off his name- and its never more clearly expressed in these scenes (of many)-



Unfortunately I cant find the full version of his conversation with Dorian- but here's a transcript of the relevant bit-


Dorium: So you're going to do this—let them all think you're dead?

The Doctor: it's the only way. Then they can all forget me. I got too big, Dorium. Too noisy. Time to step back into the shadows.


or from Angels Take Manhattan-


The Doctor: So where are we now, Doctor Song? How's prison.
River: Oh I was pardoned ages ago. And it's Professor Song, to you.
The Doctor: Pardoned?
River: Mm. Turns out the person I killed never existed in the first place. Apparently there's no record of him. It's almost as if someone's gone around deleting himself from every database in the universe.
The Doctor: Hm. You said I got too big.
River: And now no one's ever heard of you. Didn't you used to be somebody?
The Doctor: Weren't you the woman who killed the Doctor?
River: Doctor Who?


On the other side RTD era gave us a Doctor who can float and be revived on the the prayers of millions, can damn people for eternity and stand in judgement over the universe.

The idea that Moffat is somehow responsible for the deification of the Doctor in the RTD years is frankly laughable and without any substance in the evidence at all.

Nothing Messianic about RTD era WHo at all, no not even hint!-




Odd Mrs Figg how you rounded on Moffat in Day of the Doctor for having one character invoke the Doctors name yet not a peep of complaint when RTD has the entire planet do it? Just biased against Moffat maybe? Or just blind to RTD episodes?

I am staying out of this argument , I will merely say the best and worst of Moffat and Davies together have added up to an enjoyable whole, at the end of the day it's a story about a crazy old mad man flying around in a spaceship fighting crappy looking monsters, no more ridiculous than a dragon riddling with a hairy midget, I can't be arsed to get that worked up about it, Dr Who has always been a mixed bag.

But on another subject...why did I rewatch Night of the Doctor...

It's depressing thinking that's probably the last we will see of 8 on screen, Mcgann really should be getting more work.

Indeed Who has always been a mixed bag,  even great writers can even over do it- Douglas Adams is a classic example, one of my favourite writers,and he wrote some great Who- but his Who stint got too goofy, too jokey too often, too self knowing, too self aware of its audience to the point where the Doctor was addressing them directly at points right through the camera.



One of the stalwarts of Who writing, Dicks, thought that companions were there to 'scream ,look petty and get rescued'- which wasn't too unusual in the 60's and 70's but was harming the show by the 80's.

There is plenty in Who to discuss good and bad, which is why I never have understood the weight of attack levelled at Moffat by some here, especially as some of the above examples are examples of where he is getting blamed for stuff that happened in a preceding era- it doesn't seem fair or reasonable criticisms.

I didnt set up this thread out of a love of Moffat era Who- I set it up out of a love of all Who (even the bits I personally dont like- I view the RTD era as a necessary evil!)

I haven't read through the entire Dr. Who thread, but it seems to me that some posters are over-thinking this whole thing. Identifying with a particular viewpoint and then sticking to that viewpoint, no matter how repetitive or dull it might become for other users, is pretty lame behaviour.

For my part, I have always been slightly uncomfortable with the solutions that the Doctor comes up with. The larger scale they are, or the more emotion-driven they are, the cheesier the pay-off becomes. I don't mean to say that it is lame when a character has a change of heart, that is good story-telling often. It is lame when a person's willingness to retain their humanity can somehow blow up spaceships or reverse technological processes. The best Dr. Who, in my opinion, is when sacrifices are made, and lived with.

One could argue that the Doctor in Madame du Pompadour is a fool for leaving her the last time, but I don't care. That episode was perfect. Slightly dark, some comedy, a fix in the end that didn't stretch the imagination too much, and a satisfyingly tragic ending.
If we're going to talk about equals, I have always considered the Madame's character as being equal to the Doctor. Rose looks like the child she is in comparison, when they do interact. It is a very solid episode.

In comparison, episodes where Smith's Doctor works at a shop, and where the climax of the episode is a rather plump dad willing himself back to humanity (which somehow destroys the machinery of the Cybermen) is rather weak and unfulfilling.

I agreed with your lasts point in my episode review of Closing Time- although I am not overly bothered by that particular plot devise ion general it was one time too many in that particular series- even if it was a running theme.
(I wasnt a fan of either of the episodes that character appears in- especially not as the Doctor is portrayed as being 'alien' to day to day human culture- yet as the 3rd he spent years living on earth among people day to day. And noway he spent several years on a British Army Base and never encountered football   )

Nice (but long) music compilation covering music from all of NuWho-

I can't get fanatical even over Tolkien --- disappointed but not blood thirsty --- and it's beyond me why people get so passionate about Dr Who!   

Thats because you are an Ozhobbit- too laid-back and stunned into submission by the sun to be passionate   

Aha! Passion... but if things get out of kilter, maybe it is time to get some sunshine - maybe on less contentious threads for awhile?

I suspect sides may be getting chosen - just a suspicion. Sides in my opinion tend to make for alienation. But over Tolkien? Over Who? Over Sherlock? Maybe over things that are life and death, sure, but... ....

Anyone for a bit of discussion on cranberries? Juicy. Delectable. Surely no one could disagree about cranberries?

Perhaps we could keep current Who discussion to classic Who for awhile as a compromise- oddly enough no one seems to object if I dislike or like any of it   

Maybe...or maybe we could just forget the angst all round and discuss things reasonably? Everyone, I mean. No bad guys for awhile.  

On which subject I finished the 4th Doctor era- Logolpolis has t be one of the highest concept scifi ideas in Who ever- and I am currently in the realms of the fifth Doctor- I just watched Mawdryn Undead- which has to one of the most timey-wimey episodes in classic Who era.

Heres a clip (because I couldnt find a trailer) the Brigadier has problems with changing time lines and needs a prodding from the Doctor to get his memories back-




or maybe we could just forget the angst all round and discuss things reasonably? -Orwell

For that there needs to be points to debate.

We saw a few Baker episodes not too long ago. It had Leela(sp?) the cave woman, K-9 was introduced. And it had cloning, shrinking and a surprisingly dry brain to wander around in. Leela managed to appear more dressed than Amy despite having nearly nothing on, but it could be the resolution.

It's a bit difficult to imagine Leela in a setting of today, how she's be portrayed. And K-9 is very annoying. Affirmative.