Music [2]

Except I never I never asked who was right   I said I found it fascinating there were such opposed views of what feminism stands for and I found the arguments between the different groups fascinating, and in particular the views of older 'traditional' feminist like Greer in comparison to younger feminists such as Miley.

I made no comment at all about who was right or wrong. I dont know, hence why I said I found it confusing.

Fair enough. So then let me ask you, Petty:  
Do you have sympathy for either or both positions?
Or are you watching this as a complete outsider?

I view it as honestly as I can as a man, which is the only stand point I can take.

As an adult I can see the arguments those on the Miley side put forward and have sympathy with them- whose business is it to tell anyone else how they represent themselves?

But then I think if I was 13 still, being honest about it, and I saw stuff like that I would be a lot less likely to be considering any feminist angle at all and a lot more likely to mentally file it away for later in the 'wank-bank' (to use a crude but descriptive phrase ).

And from listening recently to a debate between Greer and a female porn director it seemed to me that one difference between the 'old guard' feminist and the modern sort in this particular argument is the older ones see women's actions less isolated, but take into account the effect it may also have on males and broader society. Whereas younger feminists seem more likely to view how men perceive it as mens problem not theres.

I tend to lean more towards the Greer style viewpoint- that not to take into account effect can create its own problems that have the potential to be detrimental in the long term.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
I tend to lean more towards the Greer style viewpoint- that not to take into account effect can create its own problems that have the potential to be detrimental in the long term.

I think you and Mrs Figg are probably mostly in agreement then, and I'm mostly with you. Commercial sexual exploitation is still much more of an issue for women than it is for men. Until that's corrected, there's an injustice.

Likewise as long as only women get pregnant, men are going to behave less responsibly sexually than women, and women will pay the price for it. That's also a huge injustice. The whole "reproductive rights" issue.

All of this is highly emotionally charged, and none if it's easy. I've you're determined to dig into it in a public forum, IMHO you deserve what you get.   

You know me, never afraid to tread where angels dont or something. I will talk about anything I find interesting, regardless of potential controversy- I'm a great believer that you dont get understanding without discussion, or by being too afraid to even step into the fray.

All the same, if Mrs Figg (angel that she is) chooses not to tread, you're bound to respect that, right?

i might buy a new/my own proper viola, like a proper instrument... O_O i am scared to death. how do i know what to pick?

In an issue of Maxim magazine, an article entitled "How to Cure a Feminist" obviously a joke article but it demonstrates the 'confusion' some men still have about feminism and the underlying ignorance and derision dished out to any woman who still has the temerity to call herself feminist even though the word itself has been corrupted and turned into almost an insult. Its part of the subtle backlash. Suffragettes were called unfeminine harridans, its no different today. Its also disingenuous of some people to attack feminism and claim its in crisis because of one or two silly girls who want to sell more records by stating they are feminist.




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All the same, if Mrs Figg (angel that she is) chooses not to tread, you're bound to respect that, right? - David

Of course, she is under no obligation to respond to anything she does not want to.
Although to immediately accuse me of making judgements and being passive aggressive does seem somewhat like entering the fray with both boots.   



i might buy a new/my own proper viola, like a proper instrument... O_O i am scared to death. how do i know what to pick?- Norc

Nice. Are they hideously expensive?
I had an awful experiences when I played trombone in the school orchestra, I had been practising, and then got in a scrarp with my brother and fell on the trombone horn, flattened it like a pancake! Was one of those moments where you die a million times worrying about the consequences of seeing you'd squashed the instrument before you even get in trouble.
So go cheap if your prone to accidents!


'an article entitled "How to Cure a Feminist" obviously a joke article but it demonstrates the 'confusion' some men still have about feminism'- Mrs Figg

Indeed it does, and also I would say raises an interesting question about the models who take part in such a photoshoot- I wonder how she viewed it- as a harmless laugh or not? Presumably she was not so offended as to refuse to be photographed for such a 'joke'.


'Its also disingenuous of some people to attack feminism and claim its in crisis because of one or two silly girls who want to sell more records by stating they are feminist.'

I would say to categorise the discussion that way is disingenuous, you dont have to look far online to find a wide variety of feminist voices discussing just this subject. I dont think its just about a couple of 'silly girls', or long term defenders and fighters for feminism would not take it as seriously as they do or feel it worth speaking out on.

Whenever I see people fighting over men vs. women and women vs. men and feminism and whatnot, all sides reminds me of little kids fighting on a playground. Cooties and what have you.   

''Of course, she is under no obligation to respond to anything she does not want to.
Although to immediately accuse me of making judgements and being passive aggressive does seem somewhat like entering the fray with both boots'.    Petty


I direct you to your judgemental comment

''I find it fascinating older feminists in particular get so huffy about it''. Petty

I was partly thinking of Greer and the debate I mentioned which I recently watched- there was a marked difference in views between her (very much the icon of classic post war feminsim) and the younger female porn director, and indeed your own immediate response then reminded me of Greers too. As I thought your seemingly sarky two word response - fascinating indeed- was huffy as a response and meant to imply my point was of no interest.

bungobaggins wrote:Whenever I see people fighting over men vs. women and women vs. men and feminism and whatnot, all sides reminds me of little kids fighting on a playground. Cooties and what have you.   

do you have the same reaction when people are fighting over politics or religion? or is it just because its silly women doing the fighting?

Welcome to the fray Bungo!!   

I know now and again you like to dig up this corpse and give it an airing but you seem to be saying the exact same things you have said before. ie old guard of feminists against younger feminists, when in fact thats a false division. There is just feminism, its evolved and the people with it. Its flexible and many hued. trying to pidgeon hole it is not very helpful.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Welcome to the fray Bungo!!   

its a genuine question.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I was partly thinking of Greer and the debate I mentioned which I recently watched- there was a marked difference in views between her (very much the icon of classic post war feminsim) and the younger female porn director, and indeed your own immediate response then reminded me of Greers too. As I thought your seemingly sarky two word response - fascinating indeed- was huffy as a response and meant to imply my point was of no interest.

Why? was she sarky?

I'm not trying to pigeon hole it- but even a cursory glance through feminist blogs and its easy to see the debate about both sexualisation in the music biz of women and pornography, and indeed social media are hot debating topics amongst different feminists themselves.
I dont see how if its a current and large part of the debate that its suddenly me pigeon-holing all feminists if I mention it.   
It at times seem to me that if I was female bringing this up, as many women do in debate, that accusation would not be being levelled. And that your main complaint is that its a male talking about it.



Why? was she sarky?- Figg

Greer, you are kidding, she can do sarky as well you do, she was also a bit huffy on some points- particularly when the porn director said it helped couples- her reply that she didnt see that keeping couples together was necessarily a good thing, that did seem a bit huffy in the delivery to me.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I'm not trying to pigeon hole it- but even a cursory glance through feminist blogs and its easy to see the debate about both sexualisation in the music biz of women and pornography, and indeed social media are hot debating topics amongst different feminists themselves.
I dont see how if its a current and large part of the debate that its suddenly me pigeon-holing all feminists if I mention it.   
It at times seem to me that if I was female bringing this up, as many women do in debate, that accusation would not be being levelled. And that your main complaint is that its a male talking about it.

eh? no

Well at least you werent sarky!   

i'm outta here before it goes pop tart

Aww! Just when it was getting good!

did anyone say pop-tart

 

Pop-tarts are on their way.