News from the set

I actually think people look best between 13 or 14 and about 35. The sexually aware age to the starting to lose the energy for sex age. God/Evolution made humans that way. Without attraction, no babies. (After 35 sex gets embarrassing, but luckilly, after 35 you don't get embarrassed easily I am 52 and shameless. Age brings it's compensations. )

Lorient Avandi wrote:thranduil's 32.

Hmmm... this will be awkward, considering Orlando Bloom is 34....

Mmm... a thought occurred to me... I wonder what age group Lorient falls into? Maybe you appreciate your own above others. I like all ages, but not everyone in their age group, to me, is all that attractive.

Pah, screw age I say, just make sure the rest of the male cast is looking nice and sexy like Orlando!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Tolkien says they age slowly even they do not die, but not that they all stop at under 30 in appearance. After all by that reasoning why continue ageing at all after puberty has passed? Why 30? Why not 20? Why not 40?

I always thought Elves reached a certain age and then stopped ageing externally as mortals do, though an exact number is hard to say. But before I ramble on yet again! the books described Galadriel and Celeborn for example...

... but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

Galadriel is very old, and it's not even known how old Celeborn is, except that he is certainly alive when Galadriel meets him in Beleriand obviously. Enter Cirdan -- and here's where I do a fancy enough dance -- technically the description says Cirdan was old, not that he looked old -- even though I fully admit the 'natural enough implication' is that he looked old!

But this seems a bit out of place to me, according to (what I think are) Tolkien's later ideas about Elves gleaned from Morgoth's Ring: Elves 'aged' very slowly, yes, but internally (so to speak), or not in more obvious external ways like mortals -- for example, the loss of the desire to have children is a function of age. And most importantly to do with the body: fading.

I say that the Quendi do not become old looking even after thousands and thousands (and thousands) of years, but if they remain in Middle-earth too long, at some point they will show age by fading in the body -- the fea of an Elf consumes its hroa until the hroa can no longer be seen, or seen only dimly and fitfully; and Tolkien's faded Elves can reveal their bodily forms to some Men's minds, if desired. In Morgoth's Ring these faded Elves are called the Lingerers and are compared to the Houseless (Elven spirits who refused to pass to Mandos after the death of the body), but I see no certain indication, nor any great reason why as well, why the body of a Lingerer should show notable physical ageing as mortals, before fading in any event.


Cirdan was old-er than Galadriel, but Galadriel is still very old, and why should it be thought that the difference in years between these Elves, or even where they lived, is the difference? These ideas often enough arise in an attempt to explain Cirdan, but to my mind we are still dealing with thousands of years versus some measure of 'more', and no Elf had faded yet in Middle-earth, at least that we know of; thus for myself, I still don't find these reasons compelling enough.

Fading in the body (in some form) was always the fate of Tolkien's Elves in the 'Great Lands' (later Middle-earth), though it must be said that JRRT noted some signs of age in certain Elves in the early Book of Lost Tales for example. But decades later (externally), were not the faded Companies of Warwick (see the *poem The Trees of Cortirion for instance) still as youthful looking as Celeborn of Lorien? I've nothing against growing old as mortals do of course! but I just think Tolkien's Elves were supposed to age differently rather than simply far more slowly: I think their bodies were consumed, becoming not 'older looking' but more and more transparent, until invisible. That's ageing too.

If I'm right, there's still Cirdan. I think Tolkien needed a way to make the 'aged mariner' somehow appear older, even as one of a race that didn't age in the same way as Men did: a long beard and silvery-grey hair arguably helps, but again -- and though it pains me to try and wriggle out of something Tolkien himself actually published (!)...

... technically it doesn't say...

____________________
While perhaps not usually thought of as part of the corpus of Middle-earth, the much later and final version of Tolkien's Trees of Cortirion (published in The Book of Lost Tales I) appears to speak to a relatively 'recent' time at least: it seems to be a description of faded Warwick at some point.

Ally wrote:Pah, screw age I say, just make sure the rest of the male cast is looking nice and sexy like Orlando!

Or Hermione?

Elthir wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Tolkien says they age slowly even they do not die, but not that they all stop at under 30 in appearance. After all by that reasoning why continue ageing at all after puberty has passed? Why 30? Why not 20? Why not 40?

I always thought Elves reached a certain age and then stopped ageing externally as mortals do, though an exact number is hard to say. But before I ramble on yet again! the books described Galadriel and Celeborn for example...

... but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

Galadriel is very old, and it's not even known how old Celeborn is, except that he is certainly alive when Galadriel comes to Beleriand. Enter Cirdan -- and here's where I do a fancy enough dance -- technically the description says Cirdan was old, not that he looked old -- even though I fully admit the 'natural enough implication' is that he looked old!

But this seems a bit out of place to me, according to (what I think are) Tolkien's later ideas about Elves gleaned from Morgoth's Ring: Elves 'aged' very slowly, yes, but internally (so to speak), or not in more obvious external ways like mortals -- for example, the loss of the desire to have children is a function of age. And most importantly to do with the body: fading.

I say that the Quendi do not become old looking even after thousands and thousands (and thousands) of years, but if they remain in Middle-earth too long, at some point they will show age by fading in the body -- the fea of an Elf consumes its hroa until the hroa can no longer be seen, or seen only dimly and fitfully; and Tolkien's faded Elves can reveal their bodily forms to some Men's minds, if desired. In Morgoth's Ring these faded Elves are called the Lingerers and are compared to the Houseless (Elven spirits who refused to pass to Mandos after the death of the body), but I see no certain indication, nor any great reason why as well, why the body of a Lingerer should show notable physical ageing as mortals, before fading in any event.


Cirdan was old-er than Galadriel, but Galadriel is still very old, and why should it be thought that the difference in years between these Elves, or even where they lived, is the difference? These ideas often enough arise in an attempt to explain Cirdan, but to my mind we are still dealing with thousands of years versus some measure of 'more', and no Elf had faded yet in Middle-earth, at least that we know of; thus for myself, I still don't find these reasons compelling enough.

Fading in the body (in some form) was always the fate of Tolkien's Elves in the 'Great Lands' (later Middle-earth), though it must be said that JRRT noted some signs of age in certain Elves in the early Book of Lost Tales for example. But decades later (externally), were not the faded Companies of Warwick (see the *poem The Trees of Cortirion for instance) still as youthful looking as Celeborn of Lorien? I've nothing against growing old as mortals do of course! but I just think Tolkien's Elves were supposed to age differently rather than simply far more slowly: I think their bodies were consumed, becoming not 'older looking' but more and more transparent, until invisible. That's ageing too.

If I'm right, there's still Cirdan. I think Tolkien needed a way to make the 'aged mariner' somehow appear older, even as one of a race that didn't age in the same way as Men did: a long beard and silvery-grey hair arguably helps, but again -- and though it pains me to try and wriggle out of something Tolkien himself actually published (!)...

... technically it doesn't say...

____________________
While perhaps not usually thought of as part of the corpus of Middle-earth, the much later and final version of Tolkien's Trees of Cortirion (published in The Book of Lost Tales I) appears to speak to a relatively 'recent' time at least: it seems to be a description of faded Warwick at some point.

You are availed of the facts yet again it seems, Elthir!

Mirabella wrote:

Ally wrote:Pah, screw age I say, just make sure the rest of the male cast is looking nice and sexy like Orlando!

Or Hermione?

Ummm...

And Ally, NO ONE is as sexy as Orlando Bloom, but I have to say Aidan Turner is close...

Have those two forgotten about me or what?

By the way I should add that the loss of the desire to have children is a function of Elvish ageing along with the fulfillment of having children, for example -- in other words it is not wholly ageing that affects this.

In any case I think the fading of the hroa is an important or notable example, although this does not happen in Aman it appears -- the Lingerers, as their name might suggest, faded in (the body in) Middle-earth.

A detailed analysis as always Elthir- but I'm still none the wiser regards appearance. From what you are saying the implication seems to be Elves do not physically age but rather fade away (even though we all know its better to burn out!). But Elves are born aren't they? Elrond was. And presumably he aged whilst growing or he would still look like a baby. So at which point does an elf stop appearing to physically age and start to fade? It has to be after the equivelant of puberty for breeding purposes and otherwise all elves would look about 15- which would have made the Aragorn/Arwen bits of the film a lot more controversial!

Pettytyrant101 wrote: (...) So at which point does an elf stop appearing to physically age and start to fade? (...)

Yes, it's hard to pick a specific number here, and all I can say is 'after reaching full growth'. And granted that's a subjective range, but I would suggest it is limited (even if somewhat subjectively again) by the description of Galadriel and Celeborn already posted. Here's another citation for thought, with my emphasis

'Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.'

JRRT, Laws and Customs of the Eldar

The main point here is that they grew up and reached a given point, then aged in more internal ways. And as an aside, this idea of fifty or one hundred years was possibly superseded* later, noting for instance...

'They' are the Númenóreans: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.'

Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Again, what number can we put on full growth? Here the change seems to be that the Eldar did not take fifty or one hundred years to come to full growth, but we still have no specific number for Elves.

In any case I think there was a great gap between full growth and physical fading to invisibility: even Cirdan, it seems, had not begun to fade in the hroa (the word hroa roughly translates as 'body'), even though this was noted as the fate of the Lingerers.

____________________
*see also the Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'), again with my emphasis:

Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).'

JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

So it would not be outside of possibility for elves to appear in age to be equivelant to humans of anywhere between 18-60 then? As a rough guide. And you could have the oddity of the parent looking younger than the child- depending on when their ageing slowed?

So it would not be outside of possibility for elves to appear in age to be equivelant to humans of anywhere between 18-60 then? As a rough guide.

I think sixty is too high. There was no sign of age upon Galadriel (except for the eyes and so on, but not 'around' the eyes), and speaking as a person between 35 and 60 (ahem), in my opinion one reaches 'full growth' well before sixty.

And you could have the oddity of the parent looking younger than the child- depending on when their ageing slowed?.

I always assumed this would be hard to tell, as they all stopped at the same time, or at least around the same general time to make this difficult to know.

"speaking as a person between 35 and 60 (ahem), in my opinion one reaches 'full growth' well before sixty."- Elthir

Then what are all the nose and ear hairs for then eh? Don't have them when younger but get 'em when your older- surely either signs of growth still or something weird happens in old age for which the body needs extra nostril ad ear hair to deal with!

I don't think ear hair was considered

I'm going to say Tolkien was thinking around 18 -- 25, for full growth, or to become an Elf-man or Elf-woman. Here's yet another text for consideration, but here we are dealing with an Elf in Aman (or Elves in their beginning in Middle-earth):

'Nonetheless the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.' (...) 'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3,000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change,...'

The Elves reckoned in yéni or long years, meaning 144 Sun Years = 1 Elvish 'year', and so here, development to become a man or woman measures out as around 20 or 21 yéni. It's still really thousands of years of course, but is it not interesting that it takes around 20 'Elf years' for an Elf child to become a Man or Woman? Also, Arwen (although 'half-elven' technically) was somewhat close to this age in yéni when she was wed -- again, not that she took nearly three thousand years to become a woman physically! I just think the 'number comparison' might be telling in both (even if very different) cases.


If Tolkien truly ended up with Elves growing at about the same rate as Men (which I believe at the moment, and which I think made things easier for him with respect to any chronology concerns), then I'm going to say that the range is at most between 18-30.

I think Tolkien would consider someone physically fully grown by at least 30! and the fact (if it's fact) that some parts of the human body are technically 'growing' until we die isn't really part of the equation here in my opinion.

So by that reckoning Elrond, Galdariel etc in the films are too old in appearance to be elves?

How old were they when filming began?

For TH they will both be over 40. Hugo I think was already for LotR's- he's over 50 now.

Well (I checked) Cate is 42 now, so she was 'close enough' in my opinion back when The Lord of the Rings was cast. Tolkien noted that the face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful.

Hugo Weaving? You decide but casting for Elves or Elrond Halfelven was never going to be easy in any event.


Now the filmmakers are arguably going for continuity in any case.

Slightly inconconstitent however to have your lead elves all over 40 whilst restriciting the casting of every other elf to under 30. A case to be made I think in the extras acting court for age discrimination!

I imagined a younger Ray Fiennes as Elrond... back when. He looked young, but something about him spoke to more experience than his years, though possibly it was the roles or acting, or a combination.

At around this point maybe...

http://www.pirates-cave.com/wuthering%20heights.htm

Good choice- sadly we are short of a Tardis to get him at just the right age (and to go back and get him for sequals and prequals so he hasn't aged any inbetween!)

Hugo would be fine - just give him a proper script.

With the ring verse in it?