Doctor Who [6]

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Apologies Eldo- it is on the way but I had some family stuff came up last night and I did no tget back home till about 10pm and then had some stuff to do.

It's fine, I'm just giving you a hard time. I hope you and your family are all doing well!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Mmmm, ok let me try this. My points-

1. Rape as a subject matter to be alluded to should not be barred from mention in Who.
The world is cruel and so is the show. I have tried to say/guess why, in my opinion, the Dino episode sticks out. There is a big difference between banning the subject and reacting to it being used (in my opinion, clearly not yours) straight out of the blue purely to be shocking. "But you said etc" Yes. It should be handled with care if they simply MUST underline sexual violence in a family show. I am not so sure I'd say Who is a family show. I never thought of it as such when I started watching. But I say that it's said to be a family show. Different perspectives.

And the double standard of killing and dying and bruising and bandages being fine as long as there is no blood and no boobies showing is an old and odd one. Wasn't my idea. 

2. The show has already tackled the subject indirectly in its classic period and in Nu Who (Time Meddler/Sound of Drums to name but two examples)
One being from 50 years ago, and we have talked about that scene and the reactions it got before, and I am certain we talked about it when I had seen the episode myself. Does this mean I am allowed to comment on the Dino episode after all? Oh, wait, I didn't make a fuss about every bad thing that happened in other episodes, which apparently means I think it was all fine and cute.
I'll get back to that after I write a series of letters complain about there being dead bodies in CSI, NICS and Bones, and too much blood on Dexter.

3. The episode in question has one line alluding to a rape, which never takes place, that would not be taken for such by a child unless the child had prior knowledge of such things and the language used, in which case the poor kid has a lot more to worry about in their life than this episode.
See above.

4. No one here to my knowledge has complained about any of the other instances where rape or mental abuse of a woman has been alluded to in the series except this one instance. Despite the Tennant era containing at least one far more overt example- the Masters wife who is so badly abused she ends up covered in bruises with a black eye and constantly shaking and finishes up in a mental institute as a result of her treatment, and her abuse and mental collapse is played out on screen over two episodes.
Again, see above/earlier posts.

5. It is apparently fine for the show to deal with murder, torture and genocide, (and wife beating it seems too) as these have provoked no outbursts of outrage  from anyone here as the one line in Dino's has. But you say Who should never even hint that rape even exists in the universe as that has no 'place in a family show'.
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Now! *rubs hands together* Let's divide Jerusalem!

Eldorion wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Apologies Eldo- it is on the way but I had some family stuff came up last night and I did no tget back home till about 10pm and then had some stuff to do.

It's fine, I'm just giving you a hard time. I hope you and your family are all doing well!

Me too.

Im NOT calling you a thick fucking twat ! I would never do that to YOU or ANYONE here ! thats beyond cruel & rude !   Thats unthinkable & hurtful, It would upset me to even think it of you or anyone here !
( Id say it to my friend & he'd say it to me, but thats cos we've known each other SO long & can say these things, we have a solid friendship ! )

Its not that you need to have seen ever episode to comment Amarie, you have a right to comment on any episode- but the show still has to be taken as a whole and in its own context too.
My problem with your position is that it seems hypocritical to me.

When I asked if alluding to rape would ever be justifiable nin Who if you felt it was better justified in the script you replied-

"No. Not as long as the show claims to be a family show."

Well its always claimed to be a family show, from the very beginning. Yet as you say you watched the viking episode, it might be 50 years old but you only watched it in the last year, you watched the Master episodes at the time, and never even seemed to notice his wife was being physically abused throughout it. On neither occasion did you react like this and claim it had no place in Who despite Dino's in comparison being a minor example.
If you truly believed  that the subject was never justified in a family show you should logically have been just as offended at its inclusion on other occasions purely on that basis (and there are several other examples including in Nuwho I could give, but  felt one episode from classic and Nu should suffice to illustrate my point), it therefore strikes me that the reaction to the Dinos episode is both hypocritical and a complete over reaction.

I actually think the fact you are so offended by that line (which doesn't even have to be taken as rape, the line is open enough that it could be interpreted as to 'break her spirit') is a testament to the writing and performance, you are supposed to be uncomfortable and offended at it- that's rather the point of it in order for the Doctors actions to seem justifiable.
Had Solomon not been so vile then the Doctors actions become highly morally questionable (they are anyway, but a lot, lot more).

And the writing device, of juxtaposition to heighten effect and impact, is an old and honourable one.


I hope you and your family are all doing well!- Eldo

Me too- Amarie

Thanks.


Im NOT calling you a thick fucking twat !- Azriel

My mistake then Azriel, but "if he said similar stuff Id call him a thick fucking twat"- does seem to say that if you are not actually calling me that, you are drawing a parallel between thats what youd call him for having my opinion on this matter and thats therefore what you are thinking of me in this regard. At least thats how that reads to me.

Petty you seem to have completely and deliberately mistaken the position of 'the women of forumshire', Firstly no one is advocating censorship or advocating that tough issues like wife battery should not per se be allowed in Who, although I must say family shows have a duty of care when it comes to vulnerable viewers. This duty of care was totally lacking in the scene between Solomon and Nefertiti, ie there was no in depth story being told as with the Master and his wife. Unpleasant as it was to watch, it was justified as part of the character arcs of both protagonists. therefore calling Amarie hypocritical is rather nasty of you and untrue. I am getting rather tired of the implied message you are sending out, that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you has to take demeaning comments about our posts. You can post a thousand youtube clips none of them will change our minds or justify that grotesque scene. You are wrong, and will Always be wrong, about this matter. I suggest you give up gracefully and with a bit of dignity and humility for once.

Interesting poll on Gallifrey Base on peoples opinions on Capaldi as Doctor, especially given Who's traditional argumentative and high blood pressure fandom-

Thumbs up 2,497 90.01%
Thumbs down     47 1.69%
Don't know yet      230 8.29%

A rare outbreak of consensus? I doubt it will last beyond his first episode!



"no in depth story being told as with the Master and his wife...it was justified as part of the character arcs of both protagonists."- Mrs Figg

I suggest you rewatch those episodes Mrs Fig if thats your view - she has almost no dialogue in the entire two episodes, she is just there, her sole purpose in the story is to be devoted and in love with the Master by hanging off him looking pretty and just being there at his side, then to be systematically abused by him to the point where she finally snaps and shoots him. There is no exploration of her character, or her relationship with the Master at all.
In my view her role is less justified and more of a contrivance than the line in Dinos and serves less purpose in the script.

Who fans never change!

Radio Times letters page- 1966 following the first regeneration-

I fail to see what the episode with the Master and his wife has got to do with Dinos, its pointless comparison and serves only to bolster a pretty feeble justification of yours.

Firstly no one is advocating censorship or advocating that tough issues like wife battery should not per se be allowed in Who- Mrs Figg

A lot of adults dont want nasty stuff from the 'real' world to intrude into what should be a fun family show- Mrs Figg

a child watching her favourite tv show, something that should be safe from sexual violence - Mrs Figg

yes absofuckinglutely I am listing subjects unsuitable for childrens tv, and they include rape, sexual violence and sadistic perverts. - Mrs Figg

I was making a point about censorship and you thinking any subject is acceptable in Who. which its not.- Mrs Figg



I dont see how all these statements are reconcilable.



"I fail to see what the episode with the Master and his wife has got to do with Dinos"- Mrs Figg

Because they touch on the same subject mater- the physical abuse of a female character as a plot device. One instance has provoked all this outcry the other did not even raise an eyebrow- I find that difficult to understand. Especially given to me the Master/wife case seems far more explicit and is there on screen not alluded to.

I think you must be getting pretty desperate to prove your point, how sad, its a bit pathetic do you really have to quote me? really?, well if it makes you feel better.
Firstly you chose the Master example not because its relevant but because you hate RTD episodes, its what you Always do which is a bit predictable. Secondly the masters wife was did not have her boobs out on display, nor did she dribble over the Doctor gagging for sex, this is how we are introduced to Nefertiti, we know nothing about her either. She is shown as some Bimbo that wants to shag the Doctor, and when she is bored of flirting with him she then goes on to flirt with a boorish misogynist, no wonder you love it, its right up your street.

My mistake then Azriel, but "if he said similar stuff Id call him a thick fucking twat"- does seem to say that if you are not actually calling me that, you are drawing a parallel between thats what youd call him for having my opinion on this matter and thats therefore what you are thinking of me in this regard. At least thats how that reads to me.
Im sorry you read it that way, I was in no way implying you, I obviously worded it wrong, its the subject matter NOT the person, please dont take personal offence as it was certainly NOT intended ! Of course you have your views, & I have mine, I still think we cannot resolve this touchy subject & dont want to see this get to volatile ! With all the millions of people on this planet, we cannot possibly see eye to eye & will often disagree, but, we can STILL care for the people that say it ? I still care for my friend, even tho he says things I dont agree with & he feels the same bout me. If I am honest, I feel this debate fell on the wrong time ?.....shouldnt we be happy for Eldo's Birthday ? feels like it took a side track ?? praps Im wrong ? Im wondering if Im sure bout anything these days !!!

No worries Azriel to borrow a OZhobbit phrase.

Its not a difference of opinion I mind, that's to be expected, but I find it difficult to understand the position being taken here by some folks as it seems to shift all the time and to be contradictory.
Im not offended by the counter argument, I just dont understand it- and when I dont understand something I keep probing until I hopefully do.
I get why some might be offended by the implication in the Dino's episode, I dont get why other instances of the same or similar does not.
I dont understand how how one thing can be unacceptable when another example of the same thing in the same show is acceptable. And I dont really understand the reason behind the vitriol (such is on display in the above post from Mrs Figg- which is just a personal attack on me, full of erroneous assumptions about me) with which the counter argument is being made either.

My state of mind on this debate is somewhere between puzzled and baffled by some of the arguments being put forward.

do you really have to quote me? really?, - Mrs figg

Yes when you make contradictory statements I think I do in order to try to understand your position.

"not because its relevant but because you hate RTD episodes"

Its entirely relevant- I suppose I mentioned the Time Meddler too because I  hate the first doctor, and I mentioned Caves cause I just hate the 5th Doctor era too.  

"Secondly the masters wife was did not have her boobs out on display"

Nefertiti is dressed as she is in Egyptian art. Blame the Egyptians.
And the Masters wife does droll all over him, she is constantly hanging off him at the start. She also for a large part of it wears a sexy red dress with a front split to the waist. And at least Nefretti has a character, even if you dont like it, and plenty of dialogue, and she is the master of her own fate- she chooses to give her self up for the others, and she is the instigator of her own escape from Solomon.

"she then goes on to flirt with a boorish misogynist, no wonder you love it, its right up your street."

Ah, personal abuse- the mark of low debate.

I am not being hypocritical. If you can't be bothered to read what I've said, then why should I bother repeating myself?

I have said that the episode(s) with the master's wife has a lot of gruesome deeds in them. I can't recall you being overly concerned and weeping over the woman's mental health either.

When I asked if alluding to rape would ever be justifiable nin Who if you felt it was better justified in the script you replied-

"No. Not as long as the show claims to be a family show."

You asked:
"So if you had felt it was more justified in the script you would accept the implication of rape in Who?"

Those two questions are not the same.

Rape is being possibly alluded to in every mention of torture and war crimes, there is no need for Who - which you have said they have gone to great lengths to make sure we don't think of the Doctor as a sexual being (which I assume would be true for the Master as well)- to go out of their way to hint at rape. Doctor Who does not need references to rape to be a interesting show.

I can't recall you being overly concerned and weeping over the woman's mental health either.- Amarie

No, I wasnt, I think its acceptable subject matter in the show which is entirely consistent with my view on the matter in Dinos too- what I dont understand is why others here find this acceptable and Dinos one line not.

"Doctor Who does not need references to rape to be a interesting show."

That what I dont understand- it has had these references and implications since it began,why is this one line the one that makes it unacceptable when other more severe examples did not?

I have tried to explain why the Dino episode is different. Don't know what more I can do.

Perhaps someone who speaks Man can help.  

I think most men would have already understood and accepted our points of view 5 pages back. It depends on how open and flexible someones mind is. If someone is convinced that they are right 100% of the time and wont accept anyone elses opinion then its pretty much like arguing with a brick wall. Trying to argue with them just reinforces their delusion because they feel like a martyr and that makes them dig in. No matter what intelligent debate is put forward they are incapable of seeing the other persons point of view. its pointless and annoying.

I dont understand your point of view Figgs as you have made completely contradictory statements- in one post you say you are not arguing  censorship in another you say you  'absofuckinglutely' are.
Sorry, but I dont understand how you can hold both those views when they are opposed to one another.

"I have said that the episode(s) with the master's wife has a lot of gruesome deeds in them" - Amarie

It also has quite a bit of humour in it, especially in the first episode centered around Captain Jack and his flirting.
A mix of lightness and underlying darkness is the hallmark of Who.

"If someone is convinced that they are right 100% of the time and wont accept anyone elses opinion"

I am not convinced of anything, as I have stated several times I dont understand your argument as it seems to be inconsistent and to change post to post.
You seem more interested in painting me as a hater of womankind (yet again) than you are in engaging in the actual details of the episodes being discussed.
You dismiss points raised, like comparisons with other episodes as irrelavent because you cant justify one and condemn the other at the same time- so instead you just dismiss the argument.

'In the United States, BBC America reported 895,000 total viewers for the Doctor Who Live reveal which was broadcast at 2pm Eastern Time. This made it the best telecast ever outside of primetime among the 25-54 demographic, and it was only beaten by The Royal Wedding as the best non-prime telecast ever on the channel.
According to Trendrr.TV the 30-minute TV event was the most talked about TV show on social media in the US.
On Tumblr, there were 11.84 million views of the Official US Doctor Who Tumblr since the show’s announcement, and fans created 3 million Doctor Who-related reblogs on the day of the show.
Six out of the ten trending topics in the US were related to the announcement.
In Canada the show was broadcast on SPACE, which reported 412,000 viewers at its peak for the special, making it the number one network for the key 18-54 demographic during that time.
While in Australia, 40,000 sacrificed sleep to tune into the live broadcast at 4am ET with a total of 200,000 watching the show or its repeat on ABC2. An additional 41,000 have so far watched the programme on iview, ABC’s catch up service. '- Gallifrey Base

I rest my case. I gave logical and precise reasons but at every turn those points have been twisted and demeaned. If you cant understand its not my problem. I think its more a case of you dont want to understand. Accepting you are wrong would mean you back down, and that you will never do. you are wrong, get over it.

Accepting you are wrong would mean you back down, and that you will never do. you are wrong, get over it. -Mrs Figg

Nice to see you are one hundred percent certain you are right!

You have made contradictory statements- I could quote you again but you dont like when I use what you actually say to point out your contradictions so I wont- its there for anyone to read who wishes to and they can make their own minds up,that is why I dont understand your argument- it does not seem consistent.
Nor because you dont share my view have I tried to paint you as some sort of man hater- yet you have insidiously being implying all along that I have some sort of dislike for women and a casual attitude to abuse of women. I find that deeply unpleasant and offensive.
I can only begin to imagine how you would have reacted if I had made some of your implied comments about me to you, purely on the basis you are a woman, as you seem to be attacking my point of view largely on the basis I am a man. I suspect you would have long since have exploded.

Whatever. I was thinking of making some kind of conciliatory overtures but after that last post, I really cant be arsed.

There's always a point for conciliatory overtures Mrs Figg, mine is to say we have a very differing opinion on this has we have had on other matters but it is only a tv show, youre still great even when you have me banging my head off my desk.  

Interesting theory doing the rounds- that Capalldi has been cast because the next Doctor will be the Valeyard.
The theory rests on Hurt being the real 9th who ended the Time War, if so, as seems likely, then the current Doctor is 12.
And the Valeyard is supposed to be the regen between the 12th and 13th- the Doctor whose regen is a manifestation of the Doctors darker side.

Right, I need to get back down the printers- last time I checked they were installing a new bar before the presses.  

 

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