Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]

I don't know how it is over there, but here it's very rare, to the point of being odd, to hear anybody addressed as "Mister" except to imply a professional relationship as opposed to a personal relationship. To my ear, when Sam says "Mr Frodo" he is very clearly speaking to an employer as opposed to a friend. I've never in my life called a friend "Mr", except as a joke.

While I agree that the master/servant relationship could have been done better, I do think it there. And I'm afraid the title "master" would have only given more fuel to the fanfic community... 

Its rarer than it was but I have been called Mister followed by my name many times. There is nothing intrinsically about it denotes the class system.
And when it appears solely in one context, and without any of the context of the class system it supposedly derives from, and where none of the characters act as if a class system exists, and where actions directly opposite to such a system existing persist- I dont think it can be used to claim they left the class system in.

In essence they left in Sam's manner of book speech but took all the reasons for it out.

But if you had a friend who regularly called you "Mr Petty" (as opposed to Mr Tyrant") and you didn't return the honor, wouldn't that imply something about class relationship?

Please forgive my ignorance. We colonials long ago discarded the whole British class system in favor of racism. That's why we find it all so curious.

 

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Eldo, I dont think any explanation of the class system is necessary to relate to or understand that Sam works for Frodo and therefore they dont socialise together.
Its conveyed perfectly well in the radioplays without any form of explanation at all, they just let the dialogue and characters stand and it works perfectly.
And Mister is just a title everyone male shares, Sam is a mister. It does not convey any sense of perceived inequality or expectations.

I'm with Dave on this one.  I've been called "Mister" plenty of times, but for Sam to be the only to use that word, and even then only applying it to Frodo, while everyone else uses more familiar terms even if they had not met before joining the Fellowship, clearly indicates that Sam and Frodo's relationship is different from the others.  Since I read the books first I don't know what I would have thought if I saw the films with totally fresh eyes -- and I'd be curious if any movie-firsters here could weigh in -- but it seems rather straightforward to me.

As for the explanation part, I added that mainly because I imagine many people (especially teens) being weirded out by a character calling his apparent friend "master".  That word is not used very often in the States (or elsewhere? I kind of doubt it's common in modern Britain but I don't know).

Also, I think the films did want to give the impression that Frodo and Sam socialized together.  They go out drinking together in FOTR (possibly just EE).  The closest equivalent scene in the book has neither Sam nor Frodo present, but rather the Gaffer and the Miller Sandyman (in the film, his son Ted Sandyman is present in his one and only appearance on celluloid).  Whether this change was due to PJ and co feeling that the social system in the book would not be relatable for modern audineces or if they just didn't pick up on it (I've known people who swear that Bilbo is middle class, though I don't think PJ has ever said that), I can't say.

If it seems like I'm contradicting myself here, the only defense I can offer is that so did PJ. I think he wanted to include some nod to Frodo and Sam's relationship in the book of employer-and-employee, but he did not want to go whole hog on the master-servant angle and instead chose to emphasize their friendship even at the beginning of the story. It's not entirely clear why Sam would still call Frodo "mister" at the time, but hey, consistency was never a big worry for PJ.

David H wrote:Please forgive my ignorance. We colonials long ago discarded the whole British class system in favor of racism.  That's why we find it all so curious.

This would be funnier if it wasn't true. {{{}}}

But if you had a friend who regularly called you "Mr Petty" (as opposed to Mr Tyrant") and you didn't return the honor, wouldn't that imply something about class relationship?- David

I have known two people in my life who I always called Mister followed by their name, (and at least three misses, the most formidable being an old boss, Mrs Dodds   )I knew both in a work capacity and I was introduced to them in that manner and it stuck, it can also be used jokingly between friends. A bit like nicknames sometimes some things just stick and you get so used to calling someone in a certain fashion it no longer seems odd.

From the context given in the film there is no reason at all to believe Sams use of it is based on a class system without bringing book knowledge to the film.
The film goes out of its way early on to establish that Frodo and Sam are friends who spend time in each others company socialising.

The basic set up for their relationship is entirely different from the book, and so subsequently so is how it develops (or fails to in PJ's case having left themselves nowhere to go with it).

And to this we have to accept that the script writers themselves say they took it out as they felt a modern audience would not relate to it.
I think its fairly obvious it has been expunged from the film save in Sam's manner of speech, which alone denotes nothing, and in the context of the film even less than nothing.

I have to say that wether one thinks it's a good or bad thing this technique of foreshadowing, taking the end of a characters development and presenting them as the finished article from the get go, is something Walsh and Boyens uses time and time again.

And while one might say: "Well that's only natural with the less amount of time they have to spend in the film." I feel it has rather unfortunate consequenses for the story. Making it static where it should be flowing and among other things removing much of Tolkiens idea of the hero. Tolkiens heroes seldom being the carbon cut out heroic character and often consisting of rather unheroic characters struggling through adversity to do heroic deeds.

So that is my opinion, whether one thinks the Frodo/Sam relationship is one of those instances or not.

The closest equivalent scene in the book has neither Sam nor Frodo present, but rather the Gaffer and the Miller Sandyman- Eldo

The two main pubs featured in the book, the Green Dragon and the Ivy Bush both seem to fall within the parameters of a traditional working class pub- where the village drunks, the unemployed, the tradesmen and the farm hands would go for a drink.
People of Frodo's class would not go there and it would be weird if they did.
In fact the effect of Frodo turning up to see Sam at the pub would be much like this-  



"taking the end of a characters development and presenting them as the finished article from the get go, is something Walsh and Boyens uses time and time again."- Blue


I couldn't agree more- this sort of foreshadowing and starting characters at the end of their arcs is very common with their writing, and for me a terrible idea as it removes all the depth and development from characters and story alike.

So basically I am right. Sam calling Frodo Mister is a sign of his lower rank.

So basically I am right. Sam calling Frodo Mister is a sign of his lower rank. - Mr Figg

How do you figure that? In the film there is no class system, and we are shown demonstrably that there is none- so the reasons for Sams speech cannot be the class system- the film simply does not support this contention and goes out of its way to show the opposite.

What it is is bad sloppy writing, having decided to remove all the class stuff they contrarily decided to leave Sam's manner of address in tact, but it no longer makes any sense or has any backing within the narrative as they tell it. Its just a quirk of his speech in the films.
To get any sense of it being class based you would have to bring in knowledge from the book and ignore what they present on screen as the relationship between Sam and Frodo.

How do I figure that? How do you not figure the obvious evidence in front of you?

I am going solely on the evidence presented in the film- I am still waiting on your evidence- all you have offered so far is Sam still calls Frodo Mister some of the time. Thats it.

The evidence from the film does not in anyway support a class system still being present- if you can show me where in the films it does, where Tolkiens character beats about their relationship are conveyed, that would be very helpful.

I await your examples with baited breath (although Im not holding my breath as Id be dead before you find them as they simply dont exist in the films)

  how come other people say the same thing as me, ie Sam is of lower rank in the film, and you dont threaten them with you holding your breath until you explode in a buckie/gas/ciggy fuelled conflagration?

I am an equal crabbit Mrs Figg  - I dont think anyone else is fully supporting your view that the class system is retained in the films (for the very good reason it is not) but if anyone else wishes to take that view and make that claim I will be just as crabbit at them for doing so,as they too would be just as wrong on this.

Eldo and Dave queried the use of Mister- but Eldo at least caveated his by pointing out the film is contradictory and the actions we are shown does not support the use of Mister by Sam any longer.
As far as I can tell you are the only person arguing that it does.

And I like evidence- on my side we have the words of the writers themselves and the way in which the relationship is shown particularly the establishing scenes for their relationship, both at the party where Frodo tries to coax Sam to Rose, and at the pub and when they walk drunkenly home arm in arm together.

I don't see where the evidence in the films is to support your viewpoint, and so far you haven't presented any beyond Sam's retained speech pattern.  

 

I am taking that roll of the eyes as an admission of defeat in the face of superior crabbit reasoning!   

 

Dont interrupt Figg, I'm dancing!    

if it makes you feel better. Dance. But its the hollow dance of defeat.  

No its the drunken dance of certain victory- I should know I invented it and Im certain!      

 

Oh Figg I love it when I make you crabbit  Come and have a dance on the tables     

 

 What? I've got you bells to put on and tassles and everything!

My my, this is something. I must needs go back and peruse the beginnings of this fine emote-off.