Re: Manly Thread - Boys Only

[Mrs Figg]

its ok I sewed it up.

[Pettytyrant101]

That one's definitley not appropriate!!

[Eldorion]

Um, then Eldo...can you present evidence you'd actually accept to support your point of view?

I'm not saying anyone is right, just that the approach of saying life experiences are a useless base for argument means nearly everything ever printed or said is logically untenable.

If there are any neurological, psychological, or sociological studies about how women and men handle emotions differently I'd read them, though psychology and sociology are notoriously soft (more like squishy) sciences so I'd certainly be reading with a critical eye. But my point was that anecdotal evidence does not pass muster even in the social sciences (including history).

[Eldorion]

Its ok Eldo- I took advantage of the situation to reply with an uncharacteristcly harsh use of swearing- my point there being thats how males respond stereotypcally- I made a threatening reply and a challenge. Y responded with an apology(but without having to back down on your stand), I accept and we both get to reassert our position in the pack and noone had to fight- the human males equivelent of antlers- we can fight it out wihout risking damage and peace is restored.
See, we're still men you an I.

I'm really glad we (not just the two of us, but everyone here) are able to make up so easily. Though I suppose we've had a lot of practice at it.

Still love ya, Petty!

[Pettytyrant101]

Now dont go getting all modern man on me Eldo!

[Eldorion]

It's the human male equivalent of picking bugs out of each other's pubic hair.

[Mrs Figg]

maybe there are studies made in all male or female religious seminaries, where the outside world is extremely limited. Maybe in that environment there could be some interesting results, but even then it would have to take into account everyones past life experiences, nature or nurture, personality etc. its a minefield if you try to assign to one gender a specific characteristic or trait.

[CC12 35]

ELDO SUCKS

[Mrs Figg]

It's the human male equivalent of picking bugs out of each other's pubic hair.

thanks for the mental image.

((Pettys crusty kilt springs unwanted to my revolted imagination)))

[Eldorion]

CC is a cruel mistress.

[Eldorion]

thanks for the mental image.

You're very welcome!

[Pettytyrant101]

it would have to take into account everyones past life experiences, nature or nurture, personality etc. its a minefield if you try to assign to one gender a specific characteristic or trait.- Mrs Figg

I'd say yes and no to that. Certain ideas about the sexes persist because real life examples of them do keep cropping up.
You quite rightly cant leap to the conclusion a gender trait is common therefore if you are of that gender you must be like that.
Thats clearly false.
But when you talk in the very broad sense of male and female as groups there do arise characterisitics which art and literature have long picked up on and expressed- giving us our modern stereotypes out of them.
They are not invention, its just they dont necessarily always apply at the localised individual level to any one person.

[CC12 35]

i used to have so many cool pairs of sunglasses

[David H]

all the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any ridin done

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[CC12 35]

perhaps his greatest literary achievement

[halfwise]

Well, starting with Men are generally larger than Women, I think women would be more likely to brain her way out of a disagreement than brawn her way out, and with a bit of this tendency it becomes inculturated.

A charming example of how women and men may behave alike when young and physically matched is Scout from To Kill a Mockingbird. I remember something along the lines of "He still didn't like me, even after I whipped him for it." ("whip" being slang for beat the stuffing out of somebody).

There are psychological studies of testosterone levels and aggression, with a strong correlation, plus an anti-correlation for intellectual ability. Didn't you just know it? If i can find the study I'll post it.

[David H]

plus an anti-correlation for intellectual ability.

An anti-correlation of intellectual ability and aggression, or of intellectual ability and testosterone. It makes quite a difference....

[CC12 35]

SHIT I THINK I'M IN LOVE WITH VERONICA MARS

[David H]

Found something interesting:

Testosterone Does Not Induce Aggression, Study Shows

Dec. 9, 2009 — New scientific evidence refutes the preconception that testosterone causes aggressive, egocentric, and risky behavior. A study at the Universities of Zurich and Royal Holloway London with more than 120 experimental subjects has shown that the sexual hormone with the poor reputation can encourage fair behaviors if this serves to ensure one's own status.
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Popular scientific literature, art, and the media have been attributing the roll of aggression to the arguably best known sexual hormone for decades. Research appeared to confirm this -- the castration of male rodents evidently led to a reduction in combativeness among the animals. The prejudice thus grew over decades that testosterone causes aggressive, risky, and egocentric behavior. The inference from these experiments with animals that testosterone produces the same effects in humans has proven to be false, however, as a combined study by neuroscientist Christoph Eisenegger and economist Ernst Fehr, both of the University of Zurich, and economist Michael Naef of Royal Holloway in London demonstrates. "We wanted to verify how the hormone affects social behavior," Dr. Christoph Eisenegger explains, adding, "we were interested in the question: what is truth, and what is myth?"

For the study, published in the journal Nature, some 120 test subjects took part in a behavioral experiment where the distribution of a real amount of money was decided. The rules allowed both fair and unfair offers. The negotiating partner could subsequently accept or decline the offer. The fairer the offer, the less probable a refusal by the negotiating partner. If no agreement was reached, neither party earned anything.

Before the game the test subjects were administered either a dose of 0.5 mg testosterone or a corresponding placebo. "If one were to believe the common opinion, we would expect subjects who received testosterone to adopt aggressive, egocentric, and risky strategies -- regardless of the possibly negative consequences on the negotiation process," Eisenegger elucidates.

Fairer with testosterone

The study's results, however, contradict this view sharply. Test subjects with an artificially enhanced testosterone level generally made better, fairer offers than those who received placebos, thus reducing the risk of a rejection of their offer to a minimum. "The preconception that testosterone only causes aggressive or egoistic behavior in humans is thus clearly refuted," sums up Eisenegger. Instead, the findings suggest that the hormone increases the sensitivity for status. For animal species with relatively simple social systems, an increased awareness for status may express itself in aggressiveness. "In the socially complex human environment, pro-social behavior secures status, and not aggression," surmises study co-author Michael Naef from Royal Holloway London. "The interplay between testosterone and the socially differentiated environment of humans, and not testosterone itself, probably causes fair or aggressive behavior."

Moreover the study shows that the popular wisdom that the hormone causes aggression is apparently deeply entrenched: those test subjects who believed they had received the testosterone compound and not the placebo stood out with their conspicuously unfair offers. It is possible that these persons exploited the popular wisdom to legitimate their unfair actions. Economist Michael Naef states: "It appears that it is not testosterone itself that induces aggressiveness, but rather the myth surrounding the hormone. In a society where qualities and manners of behavior are increasingly traced to biological causes and thereby partly legitimated, this should make us sit up and take notice." The study clearly demonstrates the influence of both social as well as biological factors on human behavior

[azriel]

Ive been reading this thread with interest & curiosity, & from what I gather is that both sides are passionate about themselves, within their gender ! much like 2 boxers in a boxing ring ! Each side adament in their argument/debate. Ive sited the vid above purely as it kinda shows,as the title suggests, "its like that". In it we see women & men having a musical "face off", one woman against one man. one of the guys on the so called "womens side" chips in against a male opponent probably cos he thinks his side is failing ? & doesnt want to be seen as lesser ?
Thankyou Norc for saying you dont think Im a bitch ! I felt really touched by that ! Im trying not to be!

[halfwise]

Dave's study is sharply contradicted by an earlier study with close to 2,000 participants, Eldo's caution that all such studies are contradictory is in play:

Aggression in Men: Hormone Levels Are a Key
By DANIEL GOLEMAN
Published: July 17, 1990
New York Times

WHEN men are domineering and intensely competitive, it may be just another case of raging hormones, specifically the male sex hormone testosterone, researchers say.

Scientists have long linked abnormally high levels of testosterone to an unusually early involvement with sex and drug use and to certain violent crimes, like particularly vicious rapes. But now a series of new findings show that high testosterone levels play a role in the normal urge for the upper hand.

Those men who are most likely to try to dominate in a social situation, be it in a prison yard or a board room, are likely to have higher testosterone levels than their peers, new data show.

Scientists caution against placing too much stock in the importance of hormones like testosterone in human affairs, since so many other factors, from childhood experiences to social status, shape the expression of a given behavior like dominance or competitiveness.

''This doesn't mean that people can't be dominant or aggressive without high testosterone,'' said Dr. Robert Rose, a psychiatrist at the University of Minnesota medical school. ''A woman, of course, can be as competitive as a man, even though her testosterone levels are much lower.''



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Scientists emphasize that the effects of hormones on human behavior are small relative to social and psychological factors, showing up most clearly in studies of large numbers of people. And Dr. Rose is among a group of scientists who are skeptical that the hormone is a strong and direct cause of specific human behavior. He cites a series of studies, most involving small numbers of people, that have posted contradictory findings.

''In animals behavior like mating, nesting and aggression is much more tightly linked to hormones than is true in humans,'' Dr. Rose said. ''In humans hormones only set the stage, while social factors determine if and how they are expressed.''

Still, a growing body of new evidence portrays a distinct role for testosterone among men jockeying for power.

High testosterone levels have long been known to typify the dominant males in groups of primates like baboons, and in unusual groups of men like prison inmates and hospitalized psychiatric patients. But the recent research has found the same differences in men who seek social dominance in normal realms of life.

''Hormonal secretions create a propensity for certain behaviors,'' Dr. Rose said. ''Testosterone seems most strongly linked to competitiveness and dominance.''

The findings apply only to men. After puberty, testosterone levels in men are about 10 times higher than in women.

''The highest testosterone level in women tends to fall within the low range for men, so that the hormone is a far greater factor for men than women,'' said Dr. Richard Udry, head of a center for population study at the University of North Carolina, who is studying the effects of testosterone on sexuality. But researchers agree with Dr. Rose that other factors can make women just as competitive as men.

The newest and strongest evidence about the effect of testosterone comes from a study of 1,706 men in the Boston area, aged 39 to 70. The men were selected at random as part of a larger study on aging. Those who agreed to participate were interviewed in their homes and given psychological tests, and blood samples were taken.

Those who had higher levels of testosterone and related hormones had a personality profile that researchers described as ''dominant with some aggressive behavior.''

''The picture we get is of a man who attempts to influence and control other people, who expresses his opinions forcefully and his anger freely, and who dominates social interactions,'' said John B. McKinlay, a psychologist at the New England Research Institute in Watertown, Mass., who was on the research team.

The study, which will be published in Psychosomatic Medicine, is considered significant because it is the first to examine so many randomly chosen men. Most studies of testosterone in humans have been on small numbers in select populations, like prison inmates.

Other studies, Dr. McKinlay noted, have found that men high in the trait of social dominance tend to rise to positions of leadership in business and other organizations. But for many others, some traits associated with testosterone present an obstacle to success.

Exactly how a man's high testosterone level is expressed depends in part on his social class, another new study has found. For men of lower social and economic status, it is likely to show up as a readiness for fights, a history of minor crimes, and chronic trouble with parents, teachers and peers in childhood. But that is not true at higher social and economic rungs, where the display of dominance is more subdued, researchers say.

Study of Vietnam Veterans

The findings are from data collected by the Federal Centers for Disease Control from 4,462 Vietnam veterans who were studied starting in 1985 to assess long-term effects of military service. The men's social and economic standing was rated as high if they fell into the top half of the United States population in both income and education level, and low if they fell into the bottom half.

An analysis of data on their testosterone levels was reported in the current issue of Psychological Science by James Dabbs Jr., a psychologist at Georgia State University.

''The overall picture among the high-testosterone men is one of delinquency, substance abuse and a tendency toward excess,'' Dr. Dabbs said. ''They have more trouble with people like teachers while they are growing up, have more sexual partners, are more likely to have gone AWOL in the service and to have used hard drugs. But that was so mainly for men who had low income and little education.''

There is disagreement over the social effect of testosterone on high status men. Dr. McKinlay sees these results from the study of veterans as dovetailing with his own on testosterone and social dominance, with high status men having different outlets for their impulse to dominate.

''How hormone levels are expressed depends on social factors,'' he said. ''You can drive a fast car instead of stealing them, for instance. Social dominance could be channeled into organizational leadership if you have the opportunities.''

An Obstacle for Some

On the other hand, Dr. Dabbs believes that many men with high testosterone levels are too impatient and aggressive to find their ways to positions of responsible leadership. Men with the highest testosterone levels were two and a half times more likely to be low-status as high.

The traits of some men with high testosterone may not suit them to rising in organizations where cooperation and consensus are valued, Dr. Dabbs noted. He cited other studies showing that among rapists, high levels are found in those who committed the most vicious attacks, and that among young men, schoolyard bullies have high levels of the hormone.

''Those successful in the business world use the machinery of social power, and many men with high testosterone may not be patient or docile enough to learn that mastery,'' he Dabbs said. ''They'd rather be out doing something physical. They're showoffs and swaggerers, anti-social and selfish.''

In a comparison of men in occupations ranging from the ministry, medicine and college professors to actors, football players and firemen, Dr. Dabbs found that testosterone levels correlated with certain vocations. Ministers were low in the hormone, while actors and football players had the highest levels. That study will be published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

''I was surprised that actors had such high levels,'' Dr. Dabbs said. ''But I found that among the Vietnam veterans, those who described themselves as entertainers also had high testosterone. There is a certain renegade quality to acting as a career.''

Dr. Dabbs is now studying lawyers to see if those specializing in litigation have higher testosterone levels than lawyers who do not fight it out in court.

In a series of other recent findings, fluctuations in testosterone levels in the 20 to 30 percent range have been found to reflect competitive triumphs and defeats. While most studies have focused on testosterone's influence in causing traits, these studies suggest that the hormone may be sensitive to the ups and downs of competition.

For instance, in one study the testosterone levels of the six members of the University of Nebraska varsity tennis team were monitored before and after six meets.

Players with the highest testosterone levels before each match were the most ''psyched,'' feeling optimistic about the match. Afterward, testosterone levels rose in those who won. How well the players felt they performed was also strongly related to the hormone levels: the better the player evaluated his own performance, the higher the level.

''There is a link between triumph and testosterone levels, which possibly could account for the momentum of a losing or winning streak,'' said Alan Mazur, a sociologist at Syracuse University who was an author of the study. The results were published in Hormone and Behavior in 1989.

Triumph and Humiliation

In the same vein, an earlier study by Dr. Mazur showed rises in the testosterone levels of men in the hours after being awarded their M.D. degrees. And, conversely, research by Dr. Rose found that testosterone levels fell in men going through harassment during the first few weeks of officers' candidate school.

Dr. Mazur sees testosterone at play in the small contests that establish pecking orders among men in social life. ''The sporting contest is an analog for any social competition,'' he said. ''It needn't be physical. We've found the same hormone changes in chess matches.''

''Finding your place in the hierarchy is a basic part of primate life, and testosterone is tightly linked to the outcome of battles for dominance in other species,'' he added. ''In humans, of course, face-to-face dominance is highly symbolic. I'd guess that any meaningful elevation of status would raise testosterone levels, and a blow to your status would lower them, though it hasn't been measured yet.''

[halfwise]

and this relating testosterone to intelligence (you'll have to download a pdf to get the full article):

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00207459808986438?journalCode=nes

[azriel]

I have to say, I did detect a smidgeon of "pack attack", cornering the prey, ready for the pounce ? ( Im suggesting Petty was the lamb to the wolf) But, sadly, his view point may well be based as he said, due to only his experiences ? We all live life differently & can go by what we know. For my part, my experiences with an all female clan has, on the whole been fun ! supportive, caring, maybe the ODD slagging off, but nothing I would call NASTY ?

[Mrs Figg]

what Petty needs is a good tongue lashing from time to time, keep him in order that kind of thing. it was overdue, he will thank us for it one day.

[CC12 35]

hi azril