Re: Manly Thread - Boys Only

[Pettytyrant101]

You have no way to judge from your position CC how limited or not my experiences are.
In terms of observing social interaction among women in a working environment I was working 12 hour shifts for over 20 years in such an evironment- thats moe than anecdotal and covers a period of time the same as your enitre life experience- thats a lot of observing. Its a lot of day in day out having a staff room where one female is trying to get you to say something about an other for some tactical purpose of their own., its an envireonmnt in which friendships are made, broken and remade with alarming regularity- I never liked it or understood why women acted that way to each other then, and I still dont now.
But to say that I never witnessed it happening day in and day out is just foolish.

Norc- fair enough. I appreciate that you are least finding it interesting.

[Eldorion]

Perhaps Eldo you can tell me exactly what it is about what I'm saying that so offends?

...

What in my undelying argument are you so horrified by?

There isn't an argument, that's sort of the problem. You're just falling back on personal memories, centuries old stereotypes and images (the bitchy housewife, the catty group of church women, what have you), and a few poorly-stated historical examples and claiming that it constitutes evidence that women are, in fact, fundamentally more bitchy than men. And you feign ignorance when people point that you are just restating old sexist arguments that were used to justify women being excluded from public life.

For the record, I think most of your generalizations about men are equally baseless, but I don't find them as bothersome because there is no history of institutionalized discrimination against men in any modern society.

[CC12 35]

you can't seriously suggest observing women in one area in one sector of employment for only 20 years means anything

[Eldorion]

That's like 50% of his entire argument, though. Not just in this thread but in numerous others.

I find it somewhat amusing that the guy who has repeatedly claimed that women are impossible to understand is now pontificating about What's Wrong With Women.

[Pettytyrant101]

it constitutes evidence that women are, in fact, fundamentally more bitchy than men.- Eldo

I think they are more ruthless at need, and that somehow plays into how they interact with each other, and I base that on how much more ruthless they can be when they go about their interactions with one another compared to my experiences as a man with males.
Yes its observational, but those observations are not unique to me- as I pointed out earlier there are mountains of literature whose sole premise is those observations- and they still reflect men and women today in those underlying differences bewteen the sexes.
As Davidm entioned the entire entertianment industy gears iself towrads those stereotypes and are successful because they still resonant.

"find it somewhat amusing that the guy who has repeatedly claimed that women are impossible to understand is now pontificating about What's Wrong With Women."

I have never said anywhere that any of the difernces in traits I am talking about were wrong- if you actually read the argument you would realise I am saying they are strengths when correctly used- stengths men lack.
I am frankly getting a bit sick of you continually insisting my points are in some way trying to put down women- I have never said that, so in the politest way, put up or shut the fuck up on that.
That is not my argument, it is not my point, it is not what I am discussing -your insistence that I am is entirely your own perception of what I am saying and it appears wilful and now tiring, not to menton beneath you.

[Norc]

i am so with Eldo on this matter, sorry Petty, but Eldo is what the greek would call a "master of rhetoric" which a good speaker

[Pettytyrant101]

A good speaker would have presented a counter argument- not abuse.

[Norc]

I have never said anywhere that any of the difernces in traits I am talking about were wrong- if you actually read the argument you would realise I am saying they are strengths when correctly used- stengths men lack.
I am frankly getting a bit sick of you continually insisting my points are in some way trying to put down women- I have never said that, so in the politest way, put up or shut the fuck up on that.

thanx for clearing that up petty (damn that sounded sarcastic, but it wasn't, honestly). I think this discussion have escalated rather a lot because that misinterpretation.

[Eldorion]

I think they are more ruthless at need, and that somehow plays into how they interact with each other, and I base that on how much more ruthless they can be when they go about their interactions with one another compared to my experiences as a man with males.
Yes its observational, but those observations are not unique to me- as I pointed out earlier there are mountains of literature whose sole premise is those observations- and they still reflect men and women today in those underlying differences bewteen the sexes.

Three are mountains of literature and other entertainment that are predicated on negative stereotypes about practically every sexual, racial, religious, and other minority under the sun. Art can tell us a great deal about the preconceptions of its creators and its consumers, but it's not a good basis for scientific or historical arguments.

I am frankly getting a bit sick of you continually insisting my points are in some way trying to put down women- I have never said that, so in the politest way, put up or shut the fuck up on that.

This from the guy who said just a few hours ago that stereotypes don't exist in a vacuum.

If you repeat outdated sexist arguments you should expect to be called on it.

[Eldorion]

A good speaker would have presented a counter argument- not abuse.

If you offered an actual argument I would. There is no meaningful rebuttal to be given to "but I know a lot of bitchy women from my workplace" or "Shakespeare wrote stories with lots of bitchy women in them".

[Norc]

A good speaker would have presented a counter argument- not abuse.

the last bit yeah, not the first, that was just harsh criticism of your way of argumentation.

[Norc]

god. i said i'de stay away.

[Mrs Figg]

Petty the bottom line is that you are insisting certain biological traits in one gender, which are impossible to back up with proof other than anecdotal recounting of a narrow environment. ie women are more ruthless and bitchy and emotional than men. These cultural/social/gender loaded stereotypes have echoed down the ages, they are nothing new, what is surprising and frankly disappointing is that you insist on the 'rightness of your views in the face of pretty poor to non existant scientific proof.

[Eldorion]

You guys are right, I took a couple of cheap shots there at Petty.

Sorry bro.

[Norc]

yupp, gentlemany of you to admit it more politicians like you... or.. no nope.

[halfwise]

A good speaker would have presented a counter argument- not abuse.

If you offered an actual argument I would. There is no meaningful rebuttal to be given to "but I know a lot of bitchy women from my workplace" or "Shakespeare wrote stories with lots of bitchy women in them".

Um, then Eldo...can you present evidence you'd actually accept to support your point of view?

I'm not saying anyone is right, just that the approach of saying life experiences are a useless base for argument means nearly everything ever printed or said is logically untenable.

[Pettytyrant101]

thanx for clearing that up petty (damn that sounded sarcastic, but it wasn't, honestly).- Norc

Thanks Norc. I really am not putting women down on this- I said above the trait of ruthlessness I have observed is one I admire. I can see the stength and potential in it- I have just always been confused why woem so often seem to deploy it at one another.
My conclusion to that being women see each other more as comeption than men see men as direct comeption.
Which I think is were I began this debate many pages ago.

Its ok Eldo- I took advantage of the situation to reply with an uncharacteristcly harsh use of swearing- my point there being thats how males respond stereotypcally- I made a threatening reply and a challenge. You responded with an apology(but without having to back down on your stand), I accept and we both get to reassert our position in the pack and noone had to fight- the human males equivelent of antlers- we can fight it out wihout risking damage and peace is restored.
See, we're still men you an I.

[CC12 35]

i thought we were going to suffer a great schism there for a second lol

[Norc]

aaaw, everyone is friendsssss (in anoying american accent)

{{{can we not all agree men and women aren't built the same way, for obvious reasons lol (sarcastic)}}}

but srsly, it's nice seeing that there is grown ups here, don't see that very often.

and it is written competition.

[Pettytyrant101]

"i thought we were going to suffer a great schism there for a second lol"- CC


Never CC! This is Forumshire!

[CC12 35]

we've already had two though lol

[Pettytyrant101]

SShhhh!

[CC12 35]

all the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any ridin done

[Mrs Figg]

I have a schism in my pants, I just noticed it.

[Pettytyrant101]

I cant work out if thats an appropriate comment for the manly thread or not.