Re: Manly Thread - Boys Only

[Eldorion]

I know you are not oblivious or ignorant enough to be unaware that you have been repeating ugly, outdated stereotypes about women, no matter how much you try to dress it up as "but SCIENCE!"

Edit: directed at Petty, obviously.

[Pettytyrant101]

Stereotypes dont exist in a vacuum Eldo.

[Eldorion]

Your only evidence has been personal anecdotes and an incredibly shallow understanding of history that ignores the numerous changes modern society has experienced in the last century or two, as well as the fact that not everyone (male, female, or anything else) does or should fall into neatly demarcated categories.

I know that you've added plenty of caveats, but that really doesn't excuse peddling sexist tripe IMHO.

[CC12 35]

that's a punny joke

[CC12 35]

about vacuums

[Eldorion]

already did a variant of that joke and it bombed

I saw and liked it.

[Norc]

Your only evidence has been personal anecdotes and an incredibly shallow understanding of history that ignores the numerous changes modern society has experienced in the last century or two, as well as the fact that not everyone (male, female, or anything else) does or should fall into neatly demarcated categories.

I know that you've added plenty of caveats, but that really doesn't excuse peddling sexist tripe IMHO.

Thank you Eldo, thank you. Finally, someone with a fresh mind and a good vocabulary and newly educated (not saying you're not Petty, i am pointing at me, i can't hold this discussion in english) comes forth!

[Norc]

I know you are not oblivious or ignorant enough to be unaware that you have been repeating ugly, outdated stereotypes about women, no matter how much you try to dress it up as "but SCIENCE!"

he shouts "BUT TV-Documentaries and radio-plays!"

[Pettytyrant101]

Perhaps Eldo you can tell me exactly what it is about what I'm saying that so offends? (Beyond the obvious, or should be, baiting to underscore a point, or dark humour)

That women are not more ruthless than men in general?
That they dont have social structures among themselves which differ from those among men?

What in my undelying argument are you so horrified by?
And yes there have been many social changes, the key word there is social, there havent been any biological ones, men and women have not notacably altered- its why we can still read Romeo and Juliet and see a man acting on impulse using strength and violence and a women who responds with strength, but in the end also emotion and ruthlessness.
We still respond so these stories and recognise and understand the archetypes they represent because we are still basically the same.

[Mrs Figg]

''the cattle have the pox'' Kill her she's a witch!!

''she associates with her devilcat familiars! ''Kill her she's a witch!

''Hysterical women shouldnt have the vote'' kill her she's a bitch!

''women who wear mini skirts are whores'' Kill her she's a bitch!

''women not wearing the burkah tempt the men to sin'' STONE THE BITCH!!!!!

[Pettytyrant101]

I think that last one the justification is to protect women from the animal nature of men, which cant be trusted if it even catches sight of more than a womens eyes behind a veil. So its more a slur on men really...

Ooh Lady Macbeth too- another Shakespeare female archetype that still resonants because it still contains a fundemental truth about female ruthlessness.

[CC12 35]

some activist feminists say that women are naturally soft and weak, and we must sidestep this fact with the (correct) "biology is not destiny" argument but i have never heard of anyone saying women are biologically ruthless



but you can't really say either gender is more or less ruthless because ruthless can mean a million things

[Mrs Figg]

no its not to protect women, its to control women. control their fertility, control their very flesh, not from the animal nature of other men, but for their husbands, who see them as little more than brood mares and objects they own. They are just protecting their possessions like they protect their bikes with a chain.

[CC12 35]

funny how people who use science as a way of justifying sexism often know the least about science

[Pettytyrant101]

I mean it CC in the ability when the chips are really down to make the exceptionally hard life or death choices and then carry them out.
Men might not like it but in general a man still relies on a woman (or a smart one does anyway) to be his sounding board.
And behind most successful men there is a women who can be more ruthless when need be than he can, and more supportive emotionally than he could ever get from his closest of male friends.
That might be old fashioned Eldo, but I am not convinced in any way its not still true.

Mrs Figg- I only pointed out what the defence of it was, I am not saying I believe it or endorse it. It does however show, in the fact they can use it as a defence, that there is an still exisiting perception that males will still act instinctly when confronted with females. Its such an ingrained idel it can be used in this case to justify how the women are treated.


If that addressed at me CC I havent presented any science in my argument. Nor would I gender science is hopelessly divided on every single issue.

[CC12 35]

oh sorry i didn't realise biology wasn't science my bad

[Pettytyrant101]

Biology is a science discipline, talking about it most certainly isnt (or disciplined)

[David H]

On sexual stereotypes, I'm curious what people think about movies and TV shows that clearly are trying to target certain markets: the family dramas, the romances, the bromances, the action adventures, the thrillers, the high dramas.

I'll confess up front that its a lot easier for me to watch people shooting at each other, especially if there is a clear goal that is being attempted, that to listen to people yelling or crying.

I've learned that sometimes the movies that have been recommended to me as "inspiring" by women whose opinion I respect just leave me feeling beat up and exhausted.

When two people are yelling at each other on the screen, I lose sympathy for both of them even if they later make up. I just want to leave, though if I've paid for a ticket or have a date I rarely do.

I'm afraid this puts me solidly into a "guy" stereotype. Is there hope for me?

[CC12 35]

you realise your biological arguments about "womanhood" uphold the same logic used by ignorant sexist men for hundreds of years to justify sexism

[CC12 35]

Biology is a science discipline, talking about it most certainly isnt (or disciplined)

you're kidding right?

[Pettytyrant101]

I have no intrest in justifying sexism. I firmly believe eveyrone should be represented equally and have equal opportunities in life- Im a socialist after all.

But I see no sense in some mad politically correct pretence that we are all the same, respond the same, or have the same social structures within or own sexes. We dont.

[CC12 35]

yes no one denies that fact but you have repeatedly singled out one trait which you beleive is biologically prominent in women and you stick to it for ages only to then admit you were speculating the entire time

[Pettytyrant101]

What ruthlessness?
I have to respond to whats put to me, if there has been more focus on that one trait that others then it is down to the direction the debate has gone in (and perhaps its in part due to the fact its the female trait I admire and envy the most).

[CC12 35]

as your argument is based on no scientific evidence you'd understand why I very much doubt the biological traits that you say women pocesss actually exist outside of your limited experiences

[Norc]

you know what. i don't give a flying fuck about stereotypes anymore. i don't give a rats ass what people think and don't think. I am me, you are you and that's about it. i don't wanna spend a lot of energy in this subject, we ain't gonna get anywhere and i can't hold a resonable discussion. partly because i have to write and i can't give direct feedback when someone says something and it is hard to follow the conversation, and partly because my litteral english isn't good enough (i am like shakespear in norwegian, really). I will anyhow end up swearing or saying stuff that on the internet will be read totally wrong. so i am not quitting, i am just not bothered anymore. although, i'm gonna keep an eye on this discussion, because i find i interesting.