Re: The Desolation of Smaug pre-release thread [SPOILERS]

[Eldorion]

We have a "Joel B" and a "Hillbilly" who have both registered accounts here, though neither of them made any posts. Hopefully they used their regular e-mails to register though so we can get in touch with them.

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/u144
http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/u188

[malickfan]

Hi Folks I just registered, I post on TORn and the Barrowdowns under this username, and I'm a bree refugee as well, where I posted on 'The Hobbit Movie Forum' under my name Paul Ashwell, so just letting Sinister71, Mrs Figg, Eldo, Stu, Joel, Petty and all the other regulars over there I'm here as well to stay, so have no fear that is one refugee accounted for! (I'm now posting here under malickfan just for convinience).

For everyone else a friendly hello! I look forward to discussing or ripping the guts out of DOS and TABA (sadly I fear it's going to be the latter), over the coming months. I'm a huge Tolkien fan/obsessive nutter (delete as applicable) about the books, and relatively indifferent to the films -the Lord of the Rings trilogy introduced me to Tolkien, but I haven't watched them in years-even though they remain in my eyes very solid films if VERY questionable adaptions, I'm rather more cold/p*****d off/meh towards the Hobbit films which seem to be turning me into a purist..., so I looke forward to discussing the films from a more honest perspective than than other sites...


So no idea what happened then Sin? Maybe it was to do with those PJ/Fran Walsh rumours I brought up again the other day...

[Pettytyrant101]

Great to see you here Pau (or would you prefer Malickfan here?)- if you have threads from Bree you'd like to continue or new ones to start please do. Actual  movie discussion has been at a low ebb here, PJ has knocked the wind out our sails a bit.

[Sinister71]

I'm not really sure what happened Paul /Malick. I made a few comments about them not being able to stop me and look what happens   Oh well. I've sent about 10 pm's thru facebook to the people at the Hobbit movie page who (supposedly) ran the forum but no response... there's a shocker  

As I'm sure you have heard I'm working on my own site which I hope to have up asap but don't have a date yet. I've built web sites before its just been a while I did the one for my band in the 90s and early 00's so hopefully I'll be able to figure it all out. I'm gonna report Tolkien oriented news and movie news just like the other place did but I'm planning on making it lean more towards Tolkien and less towards Jackson and HIS films. Till then I hope and many Bree refugees can make it here and continue posting

[Eldorion]

Hi Paul, glad you found your way here. I think a lot of us (myself included definitely) are in the same boat as you with regards to the movies.  Although some of us have been pulling for purism for a while. I definitely love the LOTR films and was also pretty disappointed by AUJ.  I'm trying to hold out hope for DOS but we'll see in a few more months...

We used to have a lot of PJ defenders here but at this point you're likely to find way more criticisms.  Personally though I hope the tide shifts back so we have more interesting discussions.

[malickfan]

Thanks for the welcome Guys. The website sounds interesting Sin, count me in, and good luck  

[halfwise]

Hi MF  It's interesting to hear from someone who was introduced to Tolkien via the films then turns around and says they were a poor adaptation.  At what point while reading the books did you have your first realization that things were painted askew?

Pour yourself a buckie and dive right in.

[Sinister71]

Hi Paul, glad you found your way here. :)I think a lot of us (myself included definitely) are in the same boat as you with regards to the movies.  Although some of us have been pulling for purism for a while. :PI definitely love the LOTR films and was also pretty disappointed by AUJ.  I'm trying to hold out hope for DOS but we'll see in a few more months...

We used to have a lot of PJ defenders here but at this point you're likely to find way more criticisms.  Personally though I hope the tide shifts back so we have more interesting discussions.

From everything I have heard about the changes to DOS I wouldn't hold my breath Eldo you might end up looking like a smurf with that shade of blue.  

I agree though I like a good debate but anymore Jackson's defenders are just making excuses for him and that is what i find annoying about the whole thing. Instead of seeing the real world and the actual way Jackson did LOTR in comparison to the Hobbit films. All they can do is make excuses because Jackson did this to himself IMO. It was the choices he made that resulted in the terrible (IMO)adaptation (Again IMO its not really one of these as much as it is a rewrite)of the Hobbit we are getting. But I always have to laugh (after getting ticked off) that Jackson's fanboys are so blind they can't tell what the real hobbit was about anymore and they try and justify Jackson's changes by saying the material in the book can be interpreted the way Jackson is filming them... I would much rather fanboys like that just said well it's because Peter Jackson says so and left it at that instead of trying to justify why he is butchering the story. But after how much AUJ changed the actual story and from the rumors of DOS there is no middle ground I'm afraid,...well not a very big one anyways  

[Ringdrotten]

\
We used to have a lot of PJ defenders here but at this point you're likely to find way more criticisms.  Personally though I hope the tide shifts back so we have more interesting discussions.

The problem is you can't defend things like Radaghast's rabbits and Azog. LotR had some changes to the plot and characters that made for good discussions, but the Hobbit as so far been a major disappointment and an insult to the book

Anyway - welcome, Paul! I hope you like it here, and do feel free to revive any old Tolkien-related topics (book or film) you come across here, or start new ones. We discuss and talk about all sorts of stuff here, but it is a Tolkien forum after all

[Eldorion]

Man, I really missed the cynicism train that came rolling through here. I can't really disagree with much of what you guys are saying, but I still have my fingers crossed.  Let me believe for a little while longer.  Trust me, if I don't like the film, I'll say so.  I wrote a 3000 word review about why I was disappointed by AUJ the night I saw it.

[halfwise]

You're still a believer?  Aw, that's so cute!

[Eldorion]

@Malickfan, I love your avatar!

You're still a believer?  Aw, that's so cute!

Well trying to deliberately lower my expectations didn't work last time so I figured I might as well try being positive for DOS.

[bungobaggins]

Hello malickfan!  

I must say, I enjoy reading your posts on torn. It's always good to see a dissenting opinion there. Now that Sin has been banned I would guess that there aren't very many vocal protesters anymore.

(I will add, that anyone objector who consistently posts to torn must have the patience of a saint, because there are so many people there that I just can't stand!  )

[David H]

Hi Malickfan. Welcome! 

Well trying to deliberately lower my expectations didn't work last time so I figured I might as well try being positive for DOS.

An unorthodox strategy Eldo. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. It just sounds like farther to fall before colliding with reality to me.  

[malickfan]

 

Hi MF  It's interesting to hear from someone who was introduced to Tolkien via the films then turns around and says they were a poor adaptation.  At what point while reading the books did you have your first realization that things were painted askew?

Pour yourself a buckie and dive right in.

Hi halfwise thanks for the welcome.  

I guess I started to realise how flawed the films were from a adaption point of view when I went beyond reading the books to reading the books if you get me-i.e looking out the how's and why's of Tolkiens writing, his sources and intentions, as much as the story itself.

Over the years since I first watched the films (I was about 11 when fellowship came out I think) I've read almost all of Tolkien's writing on Middle Earth, and a substantial number of ancillary works by or about him by other authors, the more I read the more I understand how Tolkien an the books were of their time and had definite intentions to say, when I started to watch the films agin I realised how the way the themes and dialogue of the story were translated to film often came across as poor or uncessary, and often the changes to me seemed too dramatic and too obvious an intention to try and pull the story into 21st century cinema-

And although the films are pretty faifthful in terms of plot many of the changes are obvious from the start- in the films we have Gimil the idiot, Legolas the Idiot, Wormtongue the Idiot, Aragorn the reluctant, Faramir the bully, Thorin the Aragorn for istance, the deliberate dropping of the scouring of the shire, the poems and songs, and the emphasis on violence and action over storytelling and plot (well perhaps not an emphasis but there is certainly an imbalnce in the films)the pacing, and tone were also pretty big departures from the book, not all of the changes were necessary, but admittedly there is a difference between a faifthul adaption and a good adaption, a more faifthful version of LOTR might not have worked on screen, but that's not to say Jackson's ideas are forgiveable

An faifthul adaption to me is where a filmaker makes the minimum of necessary changes and emblishments to source material to bring the story to screen in a faifthful way that reflects the spirt of the book and/or the author in question,  or  alternatively a good adaption is where they hopefully do the same, but primaily find a way to make the strongest version of the central story work on screen I don't think Jackson has really suceeded in this (particualry so in ROTK and AUJ) his films are primaily films, rewrites more than adaptions (3 Hobbit films isn't even a rewrite it's simply a cash grab with no reagard to the needs of the story), that personally whatever their strengths and flaws as films, don't really reflect the spirirt tone or intetions of the books as writeen in the 30's-50's.

Tolkien set out to create a mythology and a heroic romance for his own enjoyment, Jackson set out to make a blockbuster film for the masses, the too aren't really compatiable IMO, but that dosen't mean they couldn't have been more faifthful adaptions and better films in the process.

Hi Bungo. there are still a few 'protestors' on TORn, but in general it's more of a 'posistivity always forum' (I know for a fact one of the forum mods HATED AUJ but she is very nice in the way she phrases it. no effing or blinding just discussing). I'm not so much a vocal protestor anyway, I was more indifferent to AUJ, anf annoyed by aspects rather than annoyed or angry as a whole (it's 4-7 out of 10 depending on my mood-I loved the first hour, the cast, production design, cinematpgraphy, most of the cast and quite a few bits here and there, but I don't consider it a film of Tolkiens The Hobbit) in general I like most of the people on there, but yeah the 'PJ 'screw the boring books fans'-look it's that hillarious bunny sled' people do get annoying.

Still there are some great people on the Main, Off Topic, and Reading Room forum's and their is at least one other nutter who shares my enthusiam for the talking purse...

[Eldorion]

An unorthodox strategy Eldo. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. It just sounds like farther to fall before colliding with reality to me.  

I figure the probability of me fully enjoying the film is close to zero, so I might as well try to savor the experience as much as possible regardless of the final product, since I was too young to experience LOTR as it came out and I will probably never get another chance after the Hobbit trilogy is done.  And who knows, maybe thinking more positive will let me enjoy the film more (separate from the book) even if I'm still very aware of its flaws.

It's a very different approach for me, but I don't really have anything to lose.

[malickfan]

Yeah I guess I could just remove Hobbit from the title 'The Desolation' then it's not so bad, it's odd as a kid I was a massive fan of the Harry Potter books (still are he he) but my two favourite films in the series The Prisoner of Azkaban and The Half Blood Prince were probably the least faifthful in the series-loads changed and missed out, but to me were great films that felt like the book.

Then again I wasn't a sarcastic git back then...

[Ringdrotten]

We should discuss the HP movies some day I loved the books growing up and I still love them, but those films... 

[David H]

In that case, carry on Eldo! I went to AUJ with two people I knew would enjoy it as an action adventure for similar reasons.

I brought my low expectations with me as well, so I was pleasantly surprised when several scenes resembled the book, and when I realized that Riddles in the Dark was actually GOOD!

That worked fairly well for me, so I think I'll continue with the strategy of DoS. (Of course your results may vary.)

[Eldorion]

Yeah I guess I could just remove Hobbit from the title 'The Desolation' then it's not so bad, it's odd as a kid I was a massive fan of the Harry Potter books (still are he he) but my two favourite films in the series The Prisoner of Azkaban and The Half Blood Prince were probably the least faifthful in the series-loads changed and missed out, but to me were great films that felt like the book.

Then again I wasn't a sarcastic git back then...

What you have to understand about me is that I used to be super high-strung about Tolkien debates and would jump at any opportunity to pick apart the films or their defenders. That was in large part due to my age/maturity level a few years ago and because I had only rarely had the opportunity to have such in-depth discussions about geeky topics before I discovered Internet forums. Also, the first forum I found had a very, ah, intense posting culture about "serious" Tolkien topics (though it was also "academically" rigorous which I consider to be a good thing ... sometimes ). Some people here might find this hard to believe since I'm often defending the films from Petty's allegations, but I used to be the most hardcore purist here. But I've become less interested in "serious" debate over past couple years (though I still get wordy philosophical sometimes) and have tried to relax and not take things so seriously. But if you're interested in seeing my more crabbit, albeit deliberate and measured, thoughts on the films you can check out my essays on Tolkien Purism which I wrote back in 2009-10.

I suspect Petty's perception of me as a limp-wristed Tolkien liberal is based largely on his own very strict standards of purism, but there is some truth to it since I've been a fan of the films for a long time. I've just always separated their qualities as a work of cinema from their qualities (or lack thereof) as an adaptation.

[Eldorion]

We should discuss the HP movies some day I loved the books growing up and I still love them, but those films... 

I've had an interesting relationship with the HP movies over the years, going back to seeing the first one in theatres when I was all of seven years old. I go back and forth on some of them, especially the Yates films, but my favorite is Prisoner of Azkaban. I've tried to convince you of its merits before but I don't think I was able to. Actually, I've been meaning to rewatch the series or at least the first two films since it's been a couple of years and I want to see how my opinion of the Chris Columbus films especially may have changed.

[Eldorion]

In that case, carry on Eldo! I went to AUJ with two people I knew would enjoy it as an action adventure for similar reasons.  

I brought my low expectations with me as well, so I was pleasantly surprised when several scenes resembled the book, and when I realized that Riddles in the Dark was actually GOOD!

That worked fairly well for me, so I think I'll continue with the strategy of DoS.  (Of course your results may vary.)

I tried to enjoy AUJ as a simple action-adventure movie, I really did, but I wasn't able to even do that. Too drawn out, boring, and dumb in places for that. But I am hopeful that DOS will be better in that respect since there's a lot more interesting stuff happening now that the Company has crossed the edge of the Wild and the characters are established (or as established as they're likely to be, with most of the Dwarves blending together).

[David H]

(or as established as they're likely to be, with most of the Dwarves blending together).

See! I knew you couldn't be entirely positive for very long! 

[Eldorion]

My desire to think positive is conflicting with a deep-seated compulsion to (over)think stuff and say things as I see them.

[Ringdrotten]

Prisoner of Azkaban is one of my least favourite HP movies, I'm afraid The first and the second I can watch and enjoy because I watched and loved them as a kid, but 3-6 I can't watch and still be pleasant company at the same time. The two last one (7 part 1 & 2) I liked, however. Making two films was a great idea, I think, they actually made a good adaptation.