Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[Lancebloke]

Oh well. Sure my name will be lost with all the others that will be in there.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its going to be a hell of a big list thats for sure.  

But I cant say as I relish much the thought of having to call up my internet provider and talk to the (usually) nice lady on the other end of the phone and tell her 'yes I would like porn please'.
And we know how good these filtering systems are anyway- they cut out all sorts of sites that are mistaken for adult content but are not.

Another worrying part of the legislation is the governments right to block 'terrorist' sites.
During the last Iraq war Aljazeer news were declared terrorist at one point- would they have blocked their news site?- I bet they would have.
And who gets to decide- whats legitimate criticisms of the government and policy and what is 'terrorism'- we have seen in the UK how the terrorism laws brought in after 9/11 and the London bombings have already been abused in several situations- from local councils using it as an excuse to spy on people to journalists being detained and raided.
Hell they even did that one guy under terrorist legislation for disrupting a speech Blair was giving.
Tha used to be called heckling- now its apparently terrorism.  

[David H]

And we know how good these filtering systems are anyway- they cut out all sorts of sites that are mistaken for adult content but are not.

 

My sister used to work in a hospital with genetic issues. She had to go home to access any of the scholarly sites that addressed issues with the X chromosome because the filters at the hospital thought it was a porno rating. (Worst of all was the condition in which some women have an extra X chromosome. It's called XXX syndrome.......  ) 

[halfwise]

the wonderful thing is, librarians.  They have a reputation for being uptight with their hair in a bun, but they have a strong culture against censorship.  Even school librarians.  Back when I was teaching I was advisor to the student government (who would do things like throw proms, during which I have developed a deep-set loathing for DJs, but I'll stay off that topic.)

So one day after school we had a meeting in the library.  I shuttle off for a quick call of nature, and when I come back all six computers are showing porn sites.  But in their haste all 6 were the same porn site so I knew the kids were just yanking my chain.  They were good kids, I just told them to turn off the computers.

Talking to the librarian afterwards she said such things would happen as the price of avoiding censorship, and as long as she was there there would be no limitations on the internet.  From what I gather this is a common theme among librarians of all ages, and if anyone can be counted on to fight back, they can.

[Pettytyrant101]

Sadly between terrorism legislation, moral crusading for political points, and officialdom snooping on everyones internet activity the dream of a free internet is already over.

[Pettytyrant101]

Looks like the OZhobbits have a new leader.
Cant say from the BBC summing up of the man he sounds like my sort of person though-

"He's a conservative who has promised a tough line on immigration and asylum-seekers. He opposes gay marriage and has been a sceptic on climate change."

Also, and I dont know if this is just some weird thing about the BBC coverage or not, but almost every still and video of him he seems to have surrounded himself with ladies.  

Here he is budgie smuggling at the beach-



With a netball team-



And casting his vote-



All pics from the BBC coverage.

[halfwise]

Well, his daughters are gorgeous and I'm sure they've snuck into a lot of the pictures. Otherwise he has outstanding physique for his age. Or maybe it's just that Americans his age have such deplorable physique...

[Pettytyrant101]

They cant all be his daughters!  

[halfwise]

I think most in that ballot box picture are his family. The sports team doesn't count (easy shot with all females) and the beach scene are neither trying to cosy up to him or strikingly beautiful.

But that cap he's wearing at the beach has to go. I'm sure his daughters won't be seen anywhere near him so long as he's wearing that.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its just a bit odd, I read a lot of political stories from all round the world- but every other photo of this guy he has surrounded himself with women, Ive never seen it so obviously before in other countries political campaigning- as I said above Im not sure if this is some weird BBC reporting where for some reason they keep picking these sort of pics, or if its part of his electioneering.

Maybe an Ozhobbit can clarify the matter.

[halfwise]

Here we go, yes, those are his kids at the ballot box.  If an Ozhobbit I admit I might have voted for him just to see those faces over and over again.  

[Pettytyrant101]

I dont get how this happens at all-

"A 107-year-old man was killed in a shootout with police, after he held two people at gunpoint in the US state of Arkansas, authorities said.
Officers were called to a home in the city of Pine Bluff following reports that the man, named as Monroe Isadore, was threatening the pair with a gun.
They were brought to safety before police tried to arrest the suspect.
Officials said they had tried to negotiate with Mr Isadore but were forced to call reinforcements after he shot at them through the closed bedroom door.
During the course of the negotiations a Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) team was able to determine that he was armed with a handgun by inserting a camera into the room where he was holed up.
When the negotiations broke down, SWAT officers threw gas into the room and tried to open the door, police say.
But the centenarian is said to have fired at the officers as they entered the room. Officers returned fire, killing him, according to the reports confirmed by police."- BBC

Why did they need to bust i at all? The hostages were out and free, and the guy is 107- why not wait him out? He'd fall asleep eventually, he's 107. Or why not try again with a knock out gas?
Starve him out and then negotiate?
I cant believe the only solution to dealing with a 107 year old with a gun holed up in one room on his own is to burst through the door and shoot him dead.  

[halfwise]

I don't know why sleeping gas is never used. Too hard to get the dosage right? Trained anesthesiologists are used to make sure people don't die in surgery. People may also fake being asleep and take pot shots when police come in.

[David H]

Why did they need to bust i at all? The hostages were out and free, and the guy is 107- why not wait him out? He'd fall asleep eventually, he's 107.  

Maybe they were concerned for his safety.  

[Pettytyrant101]

Mmmm, I would think bursting into the room with gas and guns shows markedly little concern for his safety. Unless they were just thinking he'd be safer in his grave.
I mean if they can put a camera into the room and see he has a hand gun why didn't they just keep an eye on him till an opportune moment?
Or knock him out with knock out gas- risky on the elderly, significantly less risky though than shooting him I'd say.

[halfwise]

But you look a lot sillier if you kill someone with knock-out gas. More culpable too: at least bursting in there with guns you can say you were being shot at so had to defend yourself. Sadly, I have to think that's the reason they do it this way.

[Pettytyrant101]

I think one of the things that bothers me is the guy was 107, and therefore a consideration has to be given to the possibilty his actions are the result of a dementia.
And if so and they negotiated by trying to convince him things were not what he thought that will always fail.
Its like a dream state, you can incorporate any conflicting things into it without it seeming out of place- this guy could have been reliving any moment form his past where he had felt his life was on the line if he did have dementia. But there doesnt even seem to have been consideration of this- they dont seem to have called in any experts in this field.

But even if he was 100% in control of his own faculties I dont see why they couldnt just have cordened off the house and waited him out.

[David H]

It's awkward to speculate on these things when we don't have the facts. Your diagnosis of dementia certainly makes sense.  Another very real possibility is "suicide by cop", a person who doesn't want to live anymore, but wants somebody else to be the agent.  Or a combination of the two.  The cops are not qualified to diagnose his intent. They're trained solely to assess his risk to the community. In this case he seems to have been regularly firing through dors, which is a clear danger, so they eliminated the threat.

I do agree that they could have evacuated the community, cut off electricity and water, and starved him out.  We used to see more of that thinking when more of our officers were trained as hunters rather than video gamers.  But unless there's more to the story, I can't really fault them for breaking in the door when he's shooting out of it.

[Pettytyrant101]

It's awkward to speculate on these things when we don't have the facts.- David

I agree- hence all the 'ifs'- but from the reports I have read it doesnt seem like the possibility he was suffering dementia was in their thinking and noone trained in dealign with such illnesses was called in to talk to him- the cops called in the SWAT team, they apparently tried to unsuccessfully negotiate him out, they then tried to gas him out (not knock him out, just gas him out) by throwing a cannister in the bedroom window. They then threw in a 'distraction device' and went through the door at the same time, he began shooting and they put him down.
Thats as much detail I have been able to find so far.

[Mrs Figg]

maybe its just the mental landscape of cops in Arkansas, just maybe they are more trigger happy than cops in other areas, more gun orientated less willing or used to stopping and thinking of time consuming alternatives, or so used to being shot-at that they are sick of seing their partners getting killed, what to them is everyday to us is shocking. he may have been 100 but to them a threat is a threat, but I do agree they should have tried to either gas him out of find another method.

[David H]

I wish more police officers lived in the neighborhoods they policed. It's just easier to make good decisions if you know the people as neighbors, and they're more likely to respect and trust you.

[halfwise]

Given that he was in his house presumably with a fridge and what-not, starving him out might have taken days.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its hard to tell from the reports I have read if he was in his house or penned into one room in the house (from which he was shooting)- that they put the gas into the room he was in, a bedroom, inclines me towards the latter, but I am not at all sure.

[Orwell]

 I don't know, but if you have no hostages, I would think time is on the side of the Law. Why kick the door in?

[Lancebloke]

Well, I would suggest that it isn't the cops fault that went in to the room. They were given the orders to gas and then go in.... they are going to defend themselves if they are getting shot at.

Maybe we should be looking at the decision of the commanders on the ground. Did they think that gassing a 107 year old might be fatal itself? Maybe to make sure he didn't poke the gun out of a window and shoot some innocent bystander they needed to act, and that gas followed by a swift entry was the best course of action? He had already taken hostages so his state of mind clearly wasn't sound whether he then released them or not. Maybe they were thinking he would try and kill himself and they wanted him out alive?

Easy to speculate about what the 'right thing' was when you aren't sitting there having to make a decision.