Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[Mrs Figg]

''This is what I meant before when I said modern feminism doesnt seem to know what it stands for'' Petty

yet again you have missed the point. Its not about modern feminism not knowing what it stands for. Its the fact that a generation of Young girls are being conned into thinking such displays ARE part of being a 'strong female, feminist, whatever. If you are brought up with a certain set of rules and see society around you applauding the exploitation of women then you are going to be indoctrinated from birth. If you are brought up to believe that women are whores unless they wear a burhkah, then your world view is set in stone, and you dont THINK its wrong. ergo the younger girls who find Miley cool are either not emotionally or politically mature enough yet to realize, the people who see the blatant marketing of Miley as cool  and dont see the wider issues are being conned. many times younger girls brush off these issues as not being important largely because they grew up expecting more freedom out of life than their mothers, having equality seems a given, its no longer the desperate fight it once was, but slowly they are being enslaved by a more subtle form of sexism, the sexism of being a size 8, or having to look like their favourite model, ie perfect, they are being 'told to be sexually available by the way they dress and there is peer pressure to booze and shag like men did a generation ago. the geezerbird phenomenon in saturday night town centres where women out drink men and fall into gutters with their skirts around their necks. their peers says this is acceptable, they do not see the consequences, therefore I dont really trust their judgement in a lot of ways. so its nothing to do with modern feminism, modern feminism DOES NOT include geezerbirds and it doesnt include Miley Cirus being a prat, she does not represent modern feminism because she represents modern music stars being suckered into overt sexual displays to sell records, she does this for money not to flex her feminist muscles, she is a victim not a champion.

[Pettytyrant101]

But thats kind of my point- there are plenty supporting Miley's right to perform like that- including women of different age spectrums.

You say she is being conned, or he has been brought up in a society where this is seen as feminism when really its a clever sort of sexism- but there are those who just as passionately argue this is feminism- why shouldnt a woman be as sexually aggresive and as explicit as a man? Why shouldnt she go out and drink like a man till she falls over? Why shouldnt she sleep with however she wants whenever she wants?
There are as many champion a womans 'right' to act this way as do condemn it.

In the past feminism had goals- pretty clear ones that they aimed to achieve, you knew what they were because they were written on the placards- now I haven't a clue what modern feminism actually is, what it stands for and least of all what it hopes to achieve.
If modern feminists wanted to go on a protest march today- what would they even put on their placards?

[Mrs Figg]

ok name me one woman that Champions this kind of behaviour as being feminist. prove to me that they genuinely believe this is liberation if you can.

[Pettytyrant101]

From a self stated feminists blog, written by Jennie Saia-

'Once upon a time, being compared to Miley Cyrus was such a vile proposition that it almost ended my relationship. My adorably naïve then-boyfriend (now-husband) thought he was giving me a compliment when he said, “Y’know who you remind me of?”
I wasn’t into this version of the girl next door: seemingly vacuous, clearly catering to the male gaze, and generally coming across as kind of blah in an effort to offend no one.
BUT. Miley and I have both come a long way, baby (cheeks). Here’s a map of my path to discovering a deep respect for this woman:'

She goes on to list various reasons for why Miley is a feminist icon, before concluding-


'And now, we’ve reached the end of my road map. X marks the spot where I find myself happily recognizing Miley as a feminist celebrity. Yes, she made some choices growing up in the public eye that would cause a certain type of “feminist” to raise an eyebrow. (“What? She posed with her tongue touching a penis-shaped birthday cake?? She used her sexuality to boost her album sales??? I’m not so sure about this one…”) But in my book, she’s got real feminism nailed:

She cultivates an outward appearance that she loves, regardless of detractors who say her previous look was sexier/more beautiful/more womanly.

 She follows her passions, whether it’s country music, dubstep, or twerking in a unicorn suit. (You’ll have to find your own link for that one, since I didn’t find it especially mesmerizing… but she definitely had a good time.)

And – most crucially - she holds her own opinions and defends them in the face of public opposition because she’s confident enough to practice her own beliefs in her own way.'


And that took seconds t find just searching google for feminism and Miley Cyrus. There is plenty more holding her up as a feminist icon.

[Pettytyrant101]

Apparently if you think Miley as just being exploited or even exploiting herself Mr Figg you are guilty of the misogynistic act of slut-shaming!

Slut shaming is defined by many as a process in which women are attacked for their transgression of accepted codes of sexual conduct, i.e., of admonishing them for behavior or desires that are more sexual than society finds acceptable.Emily Bazelon says that slut shaming is "retrograde, the opposite of feminist. Calling a girl a slut warns her that there's a line: she can be sexual but not too sexual."
Many have stated that slut shaming is used against women by both men and women. Jessica Ringrose has argued that it functions among women as a way of sublimating sexual jealousy "into a socially acceptable form of social critique of girls' sexual expression.- wiki

[Mrs Figg]

Actually you are guilty of gross ignorance of the issue and are insulting to boot.
But actually your argument is fundamentally flawed, because we are talking about two entirely seperate things.


She cultivates an outward appearance that she loves, regardless of detractors who say her previous look was sexier/more beautiful/more womanly.

She follows her passions, whether it’s country music, dubstep, or twerking in a unicorn suit. (You’ll have to find your own link for that one, since I didn’t find it especially mesmerizing… but she definitely had a good time.)

''And – most crucially - she holds her own opinions and defends them in the face of public opposition because she’s confident enough to practice her own beliefs in her own way.

This is subjective in the extreme and proves nothing.
To say she is confident and does what the heck she likes has not much to do with her being feminist but more to do with her wealth and power in the music buisness. she is riding on the fame of her father, she would be just another pop tart without his name.

Secondly I am not talking about the obviously acceptable and hard won freedom any woman should have to do or dress in whatever skirt length they want, neither am I talking about a womans freedom to say what she wants or drink what she wants. I was talking about extreme sexual displays, in public. That is the basis of my argument but you dont seem to understand that fundamental difference, and in your last post you were downright insulting. My argument is women should be allowed to do what the hell they want, and if women wish to behave in ways that some would construe as tarty thats entirely up to them. But when it comes to so called stars acting like creeps and using sexuality in explicit ways in front of vulnerable audiences, then and only then, I have a big problem with it.
As regards geezerbirds, its a complicated matter, a lot of it is peer pressure a lot of it is social and which class you come from. If these girls think they are being liberated, they are only so far as its tolerated in our society, they are not stoned or beaten for it, but its not feminist, its a corruption of it. But they are free to do so and until they get attacked by boozy men I guess they wont realize how sad it is. But Miley is in full control and is young with probably a marketing team behind her, the strategy is to turn her from an innocent into the next Rhiannah whatever, so shock tactics are used, its as old as the Hills and she probably doesnt act like that in front of her parents, therefore its all an act, and if its all an act, its disgusting, on any level. This is not slut shaming as you ridiculously accused me of, its protecting innocent minds from harm and if you dont see that I feel sorry for you.

[Pettytyrant101]

My last post was a quote from a feminist blog in support of Miley- so I dont see how I have insulted you.
You challenged me to find a feminist supporting her behaviour- so I did.  

In reading the comments on that blog I discovered the term slutshaming and googled it to see what it means- the definition provided is from wiki. And apparently is real thing exposed by some feminists. Which not only excuses Mileys behaviour which believes others who call her out on it as being sluttish in some way are in fact attacking a womens right to sexually express themselves, as defined by social norms.

That is not my opinion either- its just something which apparently exists and is a term used by some feminists.

So i dont see why your mad at me- all I did was provide what you asked- a feminist defending her behaviour as feminist.

[Mrs Figg]

''Apparently if you think Miley as just being exploited or even exploiting herself Mr Figg you are guilty of the misogynistic act of slut-shaming! '' Petty

are you fucking kidding me? dont you know when you are insulting someone?

[Eldorion]

Seemed to me that Petty was making a facetious summary of the statements from other people that he was posting.  He doesn't seem to agree with it, or even have been familiar with the term slut-shaming until the current page of this thread.

[David H]

women should be allowed to do what the hell they want, and if women wish to behave in ways that some would construe as tarty thats entirely up to them. But when it comes to so called stars acting like creeps and using sexuality in explicit ways in front of vulnerable audiences, then and only then, I have a big problem with it.

I completely agree with this. (And notice that the last sentence just says "stars" without specifying gender.  )To me it doesn't matter what labels anybody chooses to stick onto it. It still puts it's finger on a problem.

[Mrs Figg]

''as defined by social norms''
exactly
I dont think sucking on dildos in public can come under 'social norms'. really I am getting a bit tired of these blanket statements you come out with. do you think this through at all before you post. I am talking about extremes in sexual exhibitionizm seen in some people in the public eye.

[Lancebloke]

I guess with all instances it comes down to what the female in question believes in doesn't it. Using Miley again for consistency, if she is behaving like that because that is how she wants to behave, does not believe it is wrong and is doing it to further whatever her own personal agenda is... and clearly feels empowered to do so... I am not sure how it could be considered un-feminist.

Yes, it may raise eyebrows in terms of the audience it was aimed at (that is mtvs fault) and of people that dont believe in overt sexuality whatever your gender. But nothing unfeminist I can see about it.

If, however, Miley is doing this because her record company are trying to maximise her exposure for solely their own gain by exploiting her gender AND Miley believes what she is doing is wrong... then I can see the argument.

Isn't feminism just about females being in a position to dictate their own destiny and not be exploited for being female, whoever that is by? How that is expressed has nothing to do with it, be that running for president of Iran to starring in an extreme fetish porn film.

Without knowing her motives, thoughts and feelings I am not sure it is right for anyone to pass judgement in that regard.

[Eldorion]

Just to be clear, there are plenty of self-identified feminists who have defended Miley Cyrus' performance of it and consider it acceptable. There are plenty of feminists who disagree with this too -- my Facebook newsfeed has plenty of both -- but this isn't something Petty came up with.

[Mrs Figg]

Seemed to me that Petty was making a facetious summary of the statements from other people that he was posting.  He doesn't seem to agree with it, or even have been familiar with the term slut-shaming until the current page of this thread.

until he said I was guilty of slut shaming of course.

[David H]

Seemed to me that Petty was making a facetious summary of the statements

Perhaps. But facetiousness and sarcasm are incendiary devices in debate, and if they backfire on the user that would be at least partly their own fault IMO. {{ }}

[Eldorion]

until he said I was guilty of slut shaming of course.

That was part of the tongue-in-cheek summary (but it is something that some people say in earnestness), and I'm pretty sure it was a more general plural you anyway.  Petty himself is not accusing anyone of slut-shaming, he didn't even know the term existed until a couple hours ago.

[Mrs Figg]

I guess with all instances it comes down to what the female in question believes in doesn't it. Using Miley again for consistency, if she is behaving like that because that is how she wants to behave, does not believe it is wrong and is doing it to further whatever her own personal agenda is... and clearly feels empowered to do so... I am not sure how it could be considered un-feminist.

Yes, it may raise eyebrows in terms of the audience it was aimed at (that is mtvs fault) and of people that dont believe in overt sexuality whatever your gender. But nothing unfeminist I can see about it.

If, however, Miley is doing this because her record company are trying to maximise her exposure for solely their own gain by exploiting her gender AND Miley believes what she is doing is wrong... then I can see the argument.

Isn't feminism just about females being in a position to dictate their own destiny and not be exploited for being female, whoever that is by? How that is expressed has nothing to do with it, be that running for president of Iran to starring in an extreme fetish porn film.

Without knowing her motives, thoughts and feelings I am not sure it is right for anyone to pass judgement in that regard.

Lance that is all fine and good FOR ADULTS, but Miley appeals to teenage and very Young girls, are you saying overt sexuality is ok for kids?

[Eldorion]

Perhaps. But facetiousness and sarcasm are incendiary devices in debate, and if they backfire on the user that would be at least partly their own fault IMO. {{ }}

Undoubtedly, but the reason I decided to comment is that I know Petty is such a poor diplomat on his own behalf.

[Mrs Figg]

until he said I was guilty of slut shaming of course.

That was part of the tongue-in-cheek summary (but it is something that some people say in earnestness), and I'm pretty sure it was a more general plural you anyway.  Petty himself is not accusing anyone of slut-shaming, he didn't even know the term existed until a couple hours ago.

seriously baffled by this, its there in black and White, he says Mrs Figg YOU are guilty of slut shaming, are you trying to defend him at any cost because this just insults my intelligence

[Eldorion]

It's a summary of what he was quoting.  It seemed more reflective of surprise than anything else as he mentions in this post that he only just became aware of the term.  Either way, it's not a statement of Petty's own beliefs.

Edit: re-reading it I was obviously wrong about the plural you but note that the majority of the post was a quote from Wikipedia with only the first sentence being Petty's own words, and that being a summary of the subsequent paragraph.

[David H]

Undoubtedly, but the reason I decided to comment is that I know Petty is such a poor diplomat on his own behalf.

Fair enough. As long as you're wading into the quagmire with your eyes wide open  .
Carry on then. Petty can use all the help he can get.

[Mrs Figg]

how come every time I try to defend the minds of young girls from filth I am the one insulted, and Petty gets defended when he insults me? this happened last time, and last time I was unjustly accused and had the term sexist twisted and thrown at me, if I didnt know better I would think the vultures were circling for the kill.

[Lancebloke]

Figgs... that isnt really a feminism question to me. That is whether MTVs target audience are mature enough to deal with adult concepts. Being that they are adult concepts I would say no and that MTV should be getting a thorough slapping with a view to worse consequences should it happen again.

[Mrs Figg]

I agree Lance. I dont believe in nanny states where things are forbidden, and over a certain age Young people can make their own minds up, but kids of 10-14 are probably not even aware of feminism, they just see their idol acting like a debauched much older person. its not healthy.

[Eldorion]

I can't say the appropriateness thing really came to mind for me because of my age and the fact that I don't have kids, but I can totally see where you're coming from, Mrs Figg. I'm not sure I'd call it healthy or unhealthy, but I thinking about it I'm sure I would feel uncomfortable watching that performance with a small child if I had one.