Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[Pettytyrant101]

flashdrive still hasn't arrived. I suspect it's been "lost" in the mail.- David

Um, check your pm's.  

[halfwise]

Hmm...checking off each of the fascism points:

Police State, Superpatriotism: for the few weeks after 9/11/2001, there was a very distinct feeling that any criticism of the government was unpatriotic, and any show of patriotism must mean the war in afghanistan (and later even in Iraq) was supported by you. It felt very fascist.

Cultivation of Ignorance this is seen very strongly in conservative circles. They don't want to see the world because they already know USA is best, so why bother?

Suppression of Labor Another conservative trait.

Militarism already commented on earlier in this thread with respect to the war on terror.

Yep, we're on our way!     

[David H]

Yep, we're on our way!     

I wonder if we'll get to wear cool uniforms! 

[Pettytyrant101]

Evil always has a good dress sense.  

[Lancebloke]

Not always functional though, the cylons must have had a full time polishing department!

[Eldorion]

Yep, we're on our way!     

In my first semester of Uni I was took a political philosophy class and one week we read Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism and then had to write an analysis of some modern country that displayed several of the warning signs that it might be slipping towards totalitarianism. I totally forgot to do the assignment until right before the class so in the last half hour I flipped hurriedly through the excerpt of the book we had and filled a sheet of paper with notes about why America is in danger of becoming totalitarian. Then I read it to the class and no one said anything at all.

NB I think the term totalitarianism is overused and not nearly as helpful as its made out to be.

[David H]

Good save Eldo!  

It often seems to me that "-ism" terms are most useful for labeling who's in and who's out of a given group, but usually the friendships get chosen before the label is stuck on.

[Pettytyrant101]

Interesting piece on the BBC new site about Nixon, in light of some tapes being released.
Bit that caught my eye-

'Despite the crisis engulfing him, Nixon remained actively engaged in global diplomacy.
At one point - in discussions with an aide - Nixon can be heard describing the Chinese as "the ablest people in the world".
The president can also be heard holding a lengthy Oval Office conversation with Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev before a June 1973 summit.
Nixon expresses a close interest in ties with China - a relationship he describes as the "key to world peace".
In the hour-long one-on-one, assisted by an interpreter, the two leaders chatted about personal topics, including their families.
"We must recognise.... while we will naturally in negotiations have some differences, it is essential that those two nations, where possible, work together," Nixon said to Brezhnev.
"If we decide to work together, we can change the world," he said. "That's my attitude as we enter these talks.'' - BBC

Nixon? Good guy or bad guy? And would he have been good for the world had the Watergate scandal not brought him down first?

Reminds me of a bit of Who-
The Doctor: Who is the President?
River: Richard Milhouse Nixon. Vietnam. Watergate. There's some good stuff too.
The Doctor: Not enough.
River: Hippy.
The Doctor: Archaeologist.

[Pettytyrant101]

More developments in the case of the man detained for 9 hours under the terror laws at Heathrow (the partner of the Guardian journalist who has been printing the Snowden leaks)-

'Material seized from a Brazilian man held at Heathrow airport under anti-terror laws can only be examined for national security purposes, judges say.
An injunction stops government and police "inspecting, copying or sharing" the data seized from David Miranda.
Police have launched a criminal inquiry but have not given specific details about this.
A lawyer for the police revealed during the court hearing that they were launching a criminal investigation after examining some of the material.

Jonathan Laidlaw QC did not give any details about the investigation but said the material "contains in the view of the police highly sensitive material, the disclosure of which would be gravely injurious to public safety".
A Home Office spokesman said: "We are pleased the court has agreed that the police can examine the material as part of their criminal investigation insofar as it falls within the purposes of the original Schedule 7 examination and in order to protect national security."

The secretary general of the European human rights watchdog the Council of Europe, Thorbjorn Jagland, warned the Home Office the detention of Mr Miranda "may have a potentially chilling effect on journalists' freedom of expression".
And EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding tweeted: "I fully share Mr Jagland's concerns.'- BBC

[David H]

Nixon? Good guy or bad guy? And would he have been good for the world had the Watergate scandal not brought him down first?

The thing is, Watergate wasn't an isolated problem. It was the only way he knew how to play the "game". He was known as Tricky Dicky from his early days in California local politics.  

There's no doubt he had vision, but he lacked respect for people, which in my opinion is a fatal flaw in a president. He wasn't a natural leader in any sense. Comparisons to Dick Cheney are almost too easy.

Edit: Besides, even without Watergate scandal, he'd only have had 2 more years to serve as president, and Ford continued all his best policies anyway.

[halfwise]

The Nixon administration was very able at foreign policy, Kissinger became an icon. I would dearly love to know if Nixon ever actually used the line in Oliver Stone's Dick: "Presidents don't bluff; they don't have to."

[Pettytyrant101]

Its just history as shown that releationships between leaders in foreign policy can be the crucial difference. And from this Nixon seems to have built up a good set of releationships on a personal level, at least with Russia.
He ma have been corrupt in the sense that he played every dirty political trick in the book, but Churchill was a drunk with a poor view of women in politics- but he was still the right man at the right time when WW2 came round.

[David H]

SALT 1 and SALT 2 were the beginning of the end of the cold war, and there's no doubt that Nixon played his part well, but as Halfwise points out they were a team effort on a massive scale on both sides based on hundreds of relationships (my uncle was a player at the time). They continued without a hiccup throughout the whole Watergate circus, so I think it would be a mistake to give too much credit to Nixon's personal charisma.  

[David H]

I'm on wifi for a bit, so just for fun I looked this one up from my childhood.    

 

[Pettytyrant101]

Catchy.  

[Pettytyrant101]

'The Ministry of Defence ran up a £40,000 bill on the speaking clock, despite a ban on staff calling it.
Employees were reportedly banned from dialling 123 to check the time.
They were given a list of websites they could use to get the time free, but calls have continued - costing a total of £40,000 in less than three years.'- BBC

 

[Eldorion]

I've never even heard of a speaking clock before. Why the hell would someone make a phone call to check the time, especially in the age of ubiquitous cell phones, laptops, and other devices with built-in clocks?

[David H]

Look on the bright side. It's cheaper than phone sex.  

Or so I've heard.....

[azriel]

Oh yeah ?.... David !.....  

[Pettytyrant101]

Why the hell would someone make a phone call to check the time, especially in the age of ubiquitous cell phones, laptops, and other devices with built-in clocks? -Eldo

I was wondering that myself Eldo.
The speaking clock has been about a long time- 50's or 60's I think but its out of date now and I would be surprised if it lasts much longer- but to run up 40 grand calling it is just incredible.

[Pettytyrant101]

Ok back to the controversial subject of feminism with Miley Cyrus- first her performance at the VMA's-



Some comments being made so far- 'We can't let our children watch this'- Brooke Shields

MTV continues to sexually exploit young women...how is this image appropirate for 14 yer olds?'-Parents Television Council

One of the most racist displays I've seen, using black women as 'props'- Jezebel (womans blog site)

It was sad, it was sleazy, it was messed up - Cyndi Lauper

Now on the other side of the coin we have young stars like Selenea Gomez said- 'amazing. I thought it was awesome.'

Rolling Stone magazine- 'Miley was the one star in the room who understood what the VMAs are about. Thanks Miley.'

And Miley herself has tweeted- 'My VMA performance had 300,000 tweets per minute. That's more than the blackout or superbowl. Fact.'

So what do you think- a young women taking control of her own sexuality and image?
Or a silly young women allowing herself to be reduced to global wank meat by big corporations?

[Eldorion]

I thought it was trashy but not entirely unexpected given that Miley Cyrus has been very keen to remind everyone that she's not a Disney teen star anymore.  Anyway, it's possible to dance on stage in your underwear in a way that's ... maybe not classy, but sexy and alluring and whatnot.  This was not.

That said, the "ban this sick filth" brigade are as overwrought as ever.  I can sort of understand the "appropriation of black culture" complaint, but the whole "black back-up dancers are literal props" thing is beyond me.

[Pettytyrant101]

I can kind of see the racist thing- the function of the black women there are to represent the stereotype of black women in music- ie they are mainly a big arse to be shaken/slapped- it does rather reduce them, no? Or was Miley highlighting this through irony?

As to the overall performance- I think if I had a 14 year old daughter and she was mimicking her favourite pop stars dances, as young girls are wont to do, I would be pretty damn uncomfortable about that.
I do think there is a certain level of responsibility if you delibrately target those age groups in order to take their money to feather your own nest.

[azriel]

Ok, what did I, as a woman read into that or any other dance move today ?
Rock & Roll was really an more seductive form of dance, it was more sultry, up close & personal, between 2 people, who are really trying to say, "lets get it on", It somehow didnt feel as sleazy as it does now ! It was more provocative in the way past, "stirred yer loins" if you wanna put it that way ! Now, it seems its a way of gunning for each other ? The girls are saying "you've got a small dick & you just cant go the distance, sex with you is a let down" while the guys are saying "Ive got the biggest dick going & you've not had anything like Ive got, & I really need to shag you now as Im as horny as fook !" I remember a while ago, this guy brought out a song dissing his ex girlfriend big time, then a little while later SHE brings one out dissing him right back ! Thats what we're teaching kids, Romance has disappeared into the mists of time, so has respect for one another, without which humans are gonna end up as mean MFs & I dont wanna live like that ! better to live alone ! How unsettling is that ?

[Pettytyrant101]

I agree its become a bit strange out there in music land, the very notion of romance seems to be out of fashion.

But its clear from various comments made that there is a big divide, and seems notably generational, between those who support her and seem to see it as a strong female doing what she wants to do, and those who see it as sexual exploitation of women.

This is what I meant before when I said modern feminism doesnt seem to know what it stands for.

And as a man in the modern world am I supposed to deplore this or applaud it?
Am I supposed to see a 20 year old women expressing herself artistically freely as she wants to, or a near naked twenty year old I can lip read without having to see her face?