Re: Countdown to Release [2] SPOILER THREAD

[Elthir]

Peter Jackson chose to say:

'He was toying with the idea of republishing The Hobbit as a rewritten book that would tie in to Lord of the Rings. That never really happened, but a lot of the material ended up in the appendices of the later editions of Return of the King.'

Has Peter Jackson got wind of the '1960 Hobbit'? which was intended to be a notable revision of The Hobbit that would tie in better with The Lord of the Rings -- this never happened in the sense that Tolkien never finished this version (he didn't really come close), and so it was never published.

But this is 1960 anyway, thus well after the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings were already in print. Jackson here refers to 'later editions' of The Return of the King. Did he have an edition that lacked the complete appendices, and maybe might think that all first editions were like that?


In 1963 Tolkien wrote to Colonel Worskett that there are: 'quite a lot of links between The Hobbit and [The Lord of the Rings] that are not clearly set out. These were mostly written or sketched out, but cut out to lighten the boat: such as Gandalf's exploratory jouneys, his relations with Aragorn and Gondor; all the movements of Gollum until he took refuge in Moria.'

But Tolkien means that he lightened the boat for the published version in 1955, as for example, only a very abridged version of The Quest of Erebor was published in Durin's Folk, Appendix A.

Peter Jackson chose to say in greater length:

'That goes back to JRR Tolkien writing The Hobbit first, for children, and only after did he develop his mythology much more over the 16 or 17 years later when The Lord of the Rings came out, which is way more epic and mythic and serious. What people have to realize is we've adapted The Hobbit, plus taken this additional 125 pages of notes, that's what you'd call them. Because Tolkien himself was planning the rewrite The Hobbit after The Lord of the Rings, to make it speak to the story of The Lord of the Rings much more. In the novel, Gandalf disappears for various patches of time. In 1936, when Tolkien was writing that book, he didn't have a clue what Gandalf was doing. But later on, when he did The Lord of the Rings and he'd hit on this whole epic story, he was going to go back and revise The Hobbit and he wrote all these notes about how Gandalf disappears and was really investigating the possible return of Sauron, the villain from The Lord of the Rings. Sauron doesn't appear at all in The Hobbit. Tolkien was retrospectively fitting The Hobbit to embrace that mythology. He never wrote that book, but there are 125 pages of notes published at the back of Return of the King in one of the later editions. It was called The Appendices, and they are essentially his expanded Hobbit notes. So we had the rights to those as well and were allowed to use them.' Said Jackson: 'We haven't just adapted The Hobbit; we've adapted that book plus great chunks of his appendices and woven it all together. The movie explains where Gandalf goes; the book never does. We've explained it using Tolkien's own notes. That helped inform the tone of the movie, because it allowed us to pull in material he wrote in The Lord of the Rings era and incorporate it with The Hobbit.'

And if Jackson is referring to the '1947 Hobbit' -- well this did happen, as revisions to Gollum 'giving' Bilbo his ring, plus other changes, were published in the second edition of 1951. So it seems that Jackson doesn't mean this version.

In any case, who has ever referred to the Appendices as 'essentially his [Tolkien's] expanded Hobbit notes'? And why not put things even more simply? something like: there is material in the Appendices to The Return of the King that can be related to The Hobbit and can be used to beef up the tale.

When putting these two statements together Jackson refers three times to Tolkien potentially altering the already published form of The Hobbit (Jackson uses 'republish, revise, rewrite'). Yes Tolkien wanted to revise The Hobbit to make it fit better with the world of The Lord of the Rings -- but that doesn't mean that anything found in the Appendices that could be related to Bilbo's tale was meant as part of a revision to the tale proper.

Generally speaking the 'intended' revisions to make The Hobbit tie in better with The Lord of the Rings were carried out in the second and third editions -- technically the third edition arose from the Ace Book controversy, not Tolkien's desire to revise The Hobbit once more, but JRRT took the opportunity of course, as this went hand in hand with the copyright concerns that had arisen.

Of course no one knows how the 1960 Hobbit would have ended up, but neither is there any evidence (that I know of) that Tolkien meant to revise The Hobbit with his 'expanded Hobbit notes' in the significant way Jackson has chosen.

[Eldorion]

Breaking news: PJ doesn't actually know very much about Tolkien.

In all seriousness though, good summary, Elthir.

[Elthir]

Breaking news: PJ doesn't actually know very much about Tolkien.

I seem to remember that Jackson did say (or someone said he said) that the edition he first read lacked the Appendices... or is this something I dreamt?

[Eldorion]

I don't know, but I do recall that PJ's first addition was a one volume New Zealand printing with a Ralph Bakshi tie-in cover, which he read after seeing the Bakshi film. I wouldn't be surprised if they cut the Appendices since several cheaper editions have excised them. Sometimes they leave only the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Speaking of which, as I was writing this post, I feel like I've heard that Jackson's first edition was one of those with only the Tale of A&A, but I'm not sure about that.

[Elthir]

Hmm, thanks Eldorion, that might explain Jackson's reference to 'later editions'. I thought I read this somewhere too, but can't recall where.

But even if so, one would think Jackson would study up, just a bit, before talking about external history to the press.

[Eldorion]

One would certainly hope. I'm still unsure how much Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens actually know, but I've come to realize over the years that PJ doesn't actually know that much more about LOTR than any other casual fan who read it once when they were 18 and then mostly forgot about it for the next 20 years (which is the process he went through). It was an uncomfortable realization because I really did want to believe that everyone who made the films was just as big a fan as I, but he's had too many gaffes like this over the year for them to just be slip-ups.

That doesn't take away from his talent as a director, but it's painful to hear people on other forums talk about how much PJ knows and how there are all these Tolkien scholars working on the films. The filmmakers are not entirely to blame for that, but a bit of humility would be nice. That would ruin their reputation as superfans, though.

[halfwise]

As long as we're on the topic, I know Tolkien made 'textual revisions' to the American version of LoTR to help establish copyright. Any idea what these revisions were?

[Elthir]

I have some idea but I've never taken up the task to collect and note each of the examples (excluding the potential fixing of typos or arguably 'minor' wording mistakes).

Inglor Felagund became Finrod -- thus Galadriel was no longer the daughter of 'Finrod' (although Felagund was never named Inglor The Lord of the Rings). Or Tolkien adding two mentions of the sons of Elrond remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

Omentielmo to omentielvo (Frodo's greeting) and other nigglings with Elvish. Something Aragorn says. Other changes like the revised beginnings to Appendix A or B, or adding stuff for the Note on the Shire Records. Tolkien wrote a new Foreword too... but these are just a few examples that come to mind.

There have been some more recent changes made by Christopher Tolkien as well (or by his advice at least, I assume), so those would have to be weeded out.

[Eldorion]

Interestingly, I believe that Gildor Inlgorion (one of the Elves the Hobbits meet in the Shire in FOTR) has the same name in the first and second editions. Gildor identifies himself as a member of the House of Finrod. However, Finrod inititally was the name of Finarfin, father of Inglor/Finrod. With his name one wonders if Gildor was meant to be Finrod's son or other descendant. For those who don't know, the suffix -ion roughly means "son of" (cf. Eldarion, Scion of the Eldar; Aragorn and Arwen's son). Tolkien changed most interests of Inglor and Finrod when he made revisions, but not in the case of Gildor. Thus, he may have changed his mind about Gildor's ancestry. I don't think anyone knows for sure.

This is delving pretty deep into Tolkien esoterica though. I doubt many people even remember who Gildor is.

The only other changes I can think of (that I've picked up from conversations with people who own the first edition) is that Aragorn's life was extended from 190 years to 210 years, and one of the Marshals of Rohan was promoted from Captain.

[Elthir]

Also Tolkien does tell his readers that Celeborn should be pronounced Keleborn before they read the tale, but that was at the end of the old Foreword! And this (plus other if relatively brief information on pronunciation) never made it back in... at the end of the new Foreword.

The list of revisions is probably longer than I realize, so saying I have some idea really only means I remember 'some' I guess. In addition to Eldorion's additions Tolkien also revised Aragorn's (Elvish) words 'to' Arwen in Lorien, and a name of one of the Numenorean Rulers. He also changed the wording with respect to the Three Unions too. Hmm, what else.

The niggle with Finarfin/Finrod seems to have arisen because Tolkien thought 'Finrod' (as in the Elf who remained in Aman when Felagund was still Inglor) should not have a Sindarin name... since he remained in Aman... but he 'left' Finarfin as Sindarin anyway! when Finarfin became the name of the Elf who remained in Aman, and he explained why this should be.

So that change seems a bit needless in the end, although Finrod Felagund has a nice ring to it anyway.

[Eldorion]

This is probably a really underwhelming answer to Halfwise's question, though I find the minutiae interesting.

[Eldorion]

On another note, Americans and Canadians can pre-order tickets starting on November 7, in one week.



Norc coming into gloat about already having tickets in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

[Pettytyrant101]

Mmm a filmposter for Th without Bilbo on it except as a silhoutte in the background with everyone else- yet Thorin and the 'handsome' dwarves are front and centre.

[azriel]

Appealing to the fans..again. Rugged "he-man" Thorin, "eye candy" Kili & Fili, Would have been nice to see Bilbo, if not inbetween the Dwarves ?

[Mrs Figg]

ooh I like handsome Dwarvses. in the front. and back and sideways if they really insist.

[azriel]

Have you noticed how they make "the hero" in console games,like, "Assassins Creed" really sexy ?! Are they based on real men? Id like one !!

[Pettytyrant101]

You cant go having a dwarf on your back Mrs Figg! Look at your pic. Where would your pussy go?

[Mrs Figg]

she can sit on his head and spit and hiss at him. natch.

[Eldorion]

Clicked "view last post" ... reading Mrs Figg's most recent without context was quite strange.

[Eldorion]

Courtesy of Fandango, the official soundtrack cover art and track listings are out.




The track listing form the standard edition gives some insight into the breaking point of the films (again, SPOILERS).

Disc 1:

My Dear Frodo
Old Friends
An Unexpected Party
Axe or Sword?
Misty Mountains performed by Richard Armitage and The Dwarf Cast
The Adventure Begins
The World is Ahead
An Ancient Enemy
Radagast the Brown
Roast Mutton
A Troll-hoard
The Hill of Sorcery
Warg-scouts

Disc 2:

The Hidden Valley
Moon Runes
The Defiler
The White Council
Over Hill
A Thunder Battle
Under Hill
Riddles in the Dark
Brass Buttons
Out of the Frying-Pan
A Good Omen
Song of the Lonely Mountain performed by Neil Finn
Dreaming of Bag End

"Song of the Lonely Mountain" is the movie's theme song which will play over the credits. Looking at the final tracks before that suggests that the climax of film one will occur after the Hobbits are trapped by wargs and rescued by the Eagles. I assume this was not the planned breaking point when the project was two films, because this takes place before Beorn, Mirkwood, and everything later.

[Eldorion]

Further speculation and analysis based on the track titles:

Disc 1:

My Dear Frodo - Framing scene with Old Bilbo and Elijah Wood.
Old Friends - Probably Gandalf and Old Bilbo meeting. Gandalf mentions "very old friends" to Bilbo in FOTR.
An Unexpected Party
Axe or Sword?
Misty Mountains performed by Richard Armitage and The Dwarf Cast
The Adventure Begins
The World is Ahead
An Ancient Enemy
Radagast the Brown - For perspective, Radagast will appear before the Trolls, who are in Chapter 2 of the book.
Roast Mutton
A Troll-hoard
The Hill of Sorcery - No clue what this refers to and I'm not sure I want to know.
Warg-scouts - No idea what the wargs are doing on the west side of the Misty Mountains but here's your halfway-point battle scene.

Disc 2:

The Hidden Valley - The Company arrives in Rivendell, presumably at least halfway through the movie
Moon Runes
The Defiler
The White Council - It appears that the White Council will meet while Bilbo is in Rivendell
Over Hill
A Thunder Battle - Did anyone still think the giants would not be made into a battle? Well here you go.
Under Hill
Riddles in the Dark
Brass Buttons
Out of the Frying-Pan
A Good Omen - Probably refers to Eagles; I doubt they'd introduce Beorn at the veeeery end of film one.
Song of the Lonely Mountain performed by Neil Finn
Dreaming of Bag End

[David H]

Wow, they seem to have chosen to use the chapter titles with only slight modifications. That gives me more reason to hope for a good Petty Purist Edit!

An Unexpected Journey = An Unexpected Journey
Roast Mutton = Roast Mutton
A Short Rest = The Hidden Valley
Over Hill and Under Hill = "Over Hill" and "Under Hill"
Riddles in the Dark = Riddles in the Dark
Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire = Out of the Frying-Pan

It looks from this like they've padded it by adding An Ancient Enemy, Radagast and Wargs to the first and second chapter to fill in for the lack of Black Riders from FotR, adding White Council to the third chapter to introduce Elrond in more detail, expanding the stone giants in the 4th chapter, and the rest looks fine.
I'm glad they're featuring the brass buttons. I've always liked that scene.

I agree that Good Omen is almost certainly an Eagle theme that we'll see reoccur for the end of "The Clouds Burst".

It honestly looks promising. Now I even know when to avert my eyes from the bunnysled.

[Eldorion]

Hmm, good point about "An Ancient Enemy". I wonder if this will be some sort of flashback to explain the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, or perhaps Sauron. I could deifnitely see this being a musical theme for Azog that will reoccur when he appears in zombie form (lol) later.

Also, while they're introducing the White Council pretty early on, I notice that there's really nothing about the Necromancer or Dol Guldur. I guess that was entirely moved to films two and three.

[David H]

Also, while they're introducing the White Council pretty early on, I notice that there's really nothing about the Necromancer or Dol Guldur. I guess that was entirely moved to films two and three.

If PJ is sticking to the book's chronology, then the Necromancer fits best when Gandalf leaves as the company is entering Mirkwood, which would be central to the second movie. And if they're going that route it makes sense to introduce the role of the White Council while the company is in Rivendell in the first movie for continuity.

It kind of makes sense. I'd been fearing so much worse!

[halfwise]

This is probably a really underwhelming answer to Halfwise's question, though I find the minutiae interesting.

Actually I'm impressed by the minutia, though clearly the changes were nothing of consequence. I thought Faramir's side trip to Osgiliath with Frodo in tow may have gotten cut out or something.