Petty's Purist LotR Edits

yeah, in the book there are 3 dwarves to accompany him, but it would really confusing for Gandalf to say "he's gone with three dwarves" at this point in the movie when we won't really define dwarves for the audience until Gimly, don't you think?

In the book, Frodo knew Bilbo was going off with the dwarves, didn't he?

It's intentionally left open to interpretation how much he did or didn't know. I just went through the first chapter again. It's assumed that the reader knows a little of Bilbo's story from the Hobbit. Frodo is introduced as a character by the Gaffer holding court at the Ivy Bush and trying to control rumors. It's a wonderful bit of Tolkien in which he demonstrates the multiple versions of stories and how much necessarily needs to be accepted as unknown. It's a beautiful little lecture on the flexible nature of history and a nod to the reader that nothing should be taken as gospel.

Then we come as a guest to the party and meet Frodo in the audience. All we're told of his knowledge is that "he had enjoyed the joke, of course, even though he'd been in the know....but at the same time he felt troubled. He suddenly realized that he loved the old hobbit dearly." To me this has always meant that he'd known all the plans, but it hadn't registered emotionally till Bilbo physically disappeared.

Then we listen to Bilbo talking with Gandalf. He says, "I want to see mountains again,... and then find someplace I can rest. In peace and quiet without a lot of relatives prying around....I might find somewhere where I can finish my book." If you've read the Hobbit a dozen times before you get to this like I had, it instantly suggests Rivendell, but uncertainty if the elves would accept him as a long-term guest. That's the way I've always read it.

Of the dwarves it just says that Bilbo picked up his stick and whistled. "Three dwarves came out of different rooms where they had been busy. 'Is everything ready?' said Bilbo. 'Is everything packed and labeled?' "Everything," they answered. 'Well, let's start then!' He stepped out the front door. ...'What fun! What fun to be off again, off on the Road with dwarves!This is what I have really been longing for, for years! Good-bye!"

And that's all we really know. I always assumed the dwarves were some of his old companions from the Hobbit, but we don't know that. We're left a lot of room to imagine, which is what makes Tolkien's stories so readable time after time, and why so many details are awkward to nail down when you actually try.

For me the deciding factor comes at Rivendell. Frodo clearly doesn't expect Bilbo to be there- he never once asks after him once he wakes and its not until after the Feast he sees Bilbo again.
In PJ's film, although Frodo knows this is where Bilbo is going I think ELijah still plays the moment with as much suprise as delight.

I don't think Frodo had any idea where Bilbo was, so it was both surprise and delight.

That's my reading of it Anne. When Gandalf suggests to Frodo he should make for Rivendell Frodo makes no mention of Bilbo which you would expect if he thought thats where he was, rather it is Sam's delight at getting to meet elves he thinks of.

I don't suppose you could photoshop those three dwarve companions of Bilbo into the movie?

Interesting! I'll have to try reading it that way and see how it changes things. Frodo's surprise I think works well either way (as I think Tolkien likes to do) when you think about an eleventy-one year old man who has gone off on an adventure with dwarves before hoping to settle down, and then hasn't been heard from for many years. Funny. I first read the Hobbit over 40 years ago, and LotR about 4 years later, and I never thought about all this. I guess it's easy to make assumptions on your first reading an then just assume they're absolute.

If we assume PJ even thought about any of this this, then he doesn't actually say Bilbo's going to Rivendale, does he? Just "to stay with the elves", and later we have the scene with the wood elf parade going to the Grey Havens, which could suggest to a casual viewer a large dispersed elven community in which Bilbo could be almost anywhere, right? Hmm. More review and thought necessary. The brain's a little tired tonight.

And it must have taken a bit out of you, that bike ride from Bree.

Thanks for asking. It's not such a bad ride really. It's mostly down hill from Bree to the Brandywine. No brakes. Lots of horn. You've got to watch out for the livestock though.
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Petty,
One of the things I really liked was how your edit brought out many of the elements of prophecy that have always been at the core of the books as I read them, but are almost lost in the PJ telling. Did this come naturally as you straightened out the chronology and removed some of the Raiders of the Lost Ark drama, or was it something you had to work at?

It sort of emerges from the ruin of PJ's cut once you start to take all the excess, the nonsense, the character changes back out. Aragorn is good example of this - I took out all the doubting, reluctant King stuff and suddeny his character has a sense of purpose again, a sense of destiny in the air and that he has been ready for this all his life. That side is there in the films, just, but PJ muddies the waters so much it gets lost amongst all the fake angst.

I wish he could have been carrying the top half of Narsil when we first meet him in Bree. It would have added to both the story and character in all that followed. As glad as I am that PJ gave its story at all, I wince when it first comes on screen at Rivendell, just like with the swords at Weathertop.

I miss more the dialogue from the Bree scene (although I to wish Narsil was in the scene)- 'If by life or death I can save you, I will'- Pj moves it to the Council whee it doesn't fit or serve the scene as well dramatically-no idea why he decided to do that. But then in his version the hobbits take up with Strider with no explanantion or reason whatsoever.

Odd thing about Narsil is I put the reforging back in at the right place and a few people who have seen my edit have never seen PJ's. They never noticed Aragron has a different sword until Paths of the Dead, despite the reforged Anduril being considerably larger than the one he has for the rest of the films and having runes down its blade- its amazing what people dont notice when watching a film- which probably explains how PJ got away with so much! They see the sword reforged and just assume thats the sword he has form then on and don't think about it again.
Another odd thing, which was fortunate for me, regarding the sword is the scene just before the Company set out from Rivendell between Aragorn and Arwen. It is from TT and it opens with Aragorn walking into shot seemingly having just got his sword, watch the very start of that bit again, he has clearly just got the sword and then flips his cloak over it, and looking at the hilt it may even be Anduril in that scene. I have no idea if PJ orginally had the reforging at the right place and then changed it later and this is a hang over from the original version but it helped when I reedited the forging scene and then followed with that one.

It's curious, now I come to think of it, that Strider should be carrying around a broken sword in the wilderness. Was it a bit of kit? Maybe PJ could even be forgiven for keeping it as an honored heirlooom safely in Rivendell. But then, would Strider really carry around spare swords just in case he had to lend same out, say, like he did at Weathertop? Maybe, in one way,T and PJ were as bad as each other. Though a broken sword would take up less room in Strider's kit, one supposes, so Tolkien is still in front in my opinion.

It is one of those odd things where PJ's version seems to be more sensible! Either that or the Rangers of Aragorns time didnt actually do much fighting and didn't generally carry a sword. There is no indication the locals of Bree walk about armed so maybe its not the normal done thing and the Rangers don't do it so as not to rouse people into having more reasons to not like them.

Certainly carrying the PJ Narsil would be both useless and awkward.

The sword I imagined when I first read of it (back in the 70's before I'd been corrupted by all the fantasy art of Hildabrandt and others) was not a giant two-handed court sword but more like an 18th century officer's field sword with a heavy pommel, a strong knuckle bow, and a really stout guard. I imagined it looking very well used, while still showing a noble quality of bygone days, like the man who carried it.

With a foot of razor-sharp blade below, it could be a better weapon in close quarters than a long sword, and much easier to carry through the wilds. I could imagine a thief carrying something like this just as well as a ranger, which I'm sure is why the image formed itself before I knew if Strider was to be trusted.

Also, if you were a ranger stalking foul, undead creatures, carrying a few talismans with ancient elven magic can't be a bad thing....

Good points David. It prompted a retunr to the book to check the text, there's two passages seem relevant;

'Throwing back his cloak, he laid hishand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side.'

and,

'He drew out his sword, and they saw that the blade was indeed broken a foot below the hilt. 'Not much use is it, Sam? said Strider, 'But the time is near when it shall be forged anew.'

So he carries it, but concealed. Its not much use in his own words and its got about a foot of sharp metal, so certainly usable in an emergency however.
I don't think the fact the blade is shortened makes much difference to concelament David, as in thief-like concealment as he appears to keep it in a full length scabbard.
But the fact it would still have an effect on evil things is a good point, and not one I had considered, but it certainly has the full effect of that when reforged so its not outside reason to suggest it had some of that effect, even broken.

I just knew Tolkien's version would make more sense. I also never thought it at all unusual until this discussion of the swords Strider gave to the hobbits in the movie. Eru bless you J.R. You make the seemingly unusual seem ordinary and reasonable. A talisman, and a weapon in a pinch. Perfect. Fresh.

One more question: One of my biggest disappointments with PJ'sLotR is with the Nazgul, and particularly the Witch King. They actually start out well enough in FotR, but rather than getting progressively more scary they get progressively more Monty Python.

Although your edit seemed to reduce the silliness, I've always wondered if it was possible to reintroduce the scariness. The uncanny scream is a nice touch really. If only it kept building. They actually did a little bit of this at Minas Morgol, but I felt like PJ was afraid to push it too hard.

In battle, the Witch King should be sucking the life, spirit, and soul from the legions, otherwise what's the good of being a witch king? Instead he's farting around taking out people in ones and twos with his pet pterosaur, but always with the inspiring martial score and only distant screams. I think PJ was too protective of his score. I'd like to see at least a few scenes more like Saving Private Ryan that let you feel the pointlessness and hopelessness.

I have no idea what your editing software is capable of, but would it be possible to add in shadow to the image and screams and low frequency shudders in advance of Nazgul appearing? It seems like just that would help offset the silliness a lot. I'm sure you've thought about this. Would this be possible, at least theoretically, without going back to WETA?

Just wondering.

My view was that (after Petty finishes my video) he should make his own LotR movie.

I can't agree about the Nazgul "starting off okay". In the book they are mysterious "Black Men" who we have no idea about, other than that they're kinda creepy. The less said (or shown) of them in the movies, the better. A thin cry, as the hobbits go across country toward Farmer Maggots, would be far more potent than a Black Rider in big boots get tricked by the oldest trick in the book.

"Oooh... who's this hiding under a tree root, then? What's that? Did someone just throw a bag of some sort into the undegrowth? I'll go have a look..." Now, that's tension building.

I agree with pretty much everything you say, though I think I try to give PJ a lot more slack. By 'well enough' I'm comparing him to the other 2 interpretations of Nazgul. He follows pretty close to Ralph Bakshi's ideas of Black Riders, which is WAY better than the Japanese Animators of RotK did. So for me that's an OK starting point. If he'd just succeeded in making them more terrifying rather than less as the movies progressed I'd be applauding right now. What can I say? I'm easy!

I am mostly reduced David to editing, colour alterations and filters. If it wasn't orginally shot however there is not much I can do, I don't have the skills.
I am sure what you suggest is technically possible, just not by someone of my skill level or drunkeness.

(For the record I prefer Bakshi's Black Riders, whilst their movement is not as in the book I think it conveys better their status as wraiths (lit. a twisted thing) and makes them much more disturbing)

Frankly I'm amazed at what you've been able to do! Some friends and I had talked about what might be possible in a re-edit as a thought problem several years ago, when video editing was still an arcane art and file sharing of more than a few M almost unheard of. To be able to watch your megaedit from half way around the world and then chat with you about it still feels like high magic to this old hobbit.

So for now I'll take your suggestion and try to correct the Nazgul problem with alcohol. It should work just fine.

BTW I'm kind of glad that you're supportive of RB, although he was my first big disappointment and I'm afraid I'll never be able to forgive him for that. A lifelong grudge is something to savor.

There much Bakshi got wrong, there isn't anywhere enough time to tell that much in so short a film. And a lot of the visuals are not my idea of Middle-Earth. Although some do stick with you to their credit (for good and ill). I did a comparison as far as the end of Fellowship between Bakshi's script and PJ's- you'll find it in the LotR's section. But its a two cuppa read, just to warn you.