Re: More Hobbit pictures [2] SPOILER THREAD

[Mrs Figg]

I much preferred the original, that new one looks fake and flat. Its truly ridiculous to go on about the different grass, and there is little point to saying its a victorian bridge when some of the architecture in Bree for example could easily be from the 19th century.

[halfwise]

Tolkien himself had Sam talking about 'taters', which dates middle earth to no earlier than the dawn of the 15th century.

But this problem is solved it you simply accept that middle earth is in fact New Zealand. (Um, okay I guess it has to be the Americas.) Why people insist on making things so difficult is beyond me....

[Mrs Figg]

and the fact that stone bridges did actually exist in the 15th century.

[Pettytyrant101]

Now ones that looked like railway bridges.

[David H]

And what about waistcoats? They weren't around until the 17th or 18th century. And those pipes they are smoking... tobacco pipes! And of course there's no tobacco in England until the 17th century either! And that one chestnut horse! It makes you wonder what Tolkien was smoking in that pipe!

[azriel]

I can relate to Pettys version better than the 1st version by far. It feels like The Shire to me, I recognize it easier because Im lucky enough to have countryside around me that looks like this. Hobbiton is a story,written by someone living in England. So hed use things he saw on a daily basis. IF PJ was making a film about a story that was indigenous only to NZ,& he wanted to show the world,via film,of this story,then for me,being English & not knowing NZ folk lore,I could except the MANY alterations he made,(as he did in LOTRs) But,its not. Visually its got to look a bit English in some places ? IMO.

[Mrs Figg]

there is absolutely no material difference between poster 1 or 2 apart from the fact the second one looks flattened and theres no bridge. the grass in the foreground is exactly the same, and its grass just ordinary grass, not some weird alien grass from NZ, unless someone can tell me NZ grass is not grass it remains a ridiculous argument, that anyone could whinge about grass variants is beyond the pale. and people pandering to the someone whinging about grass, is even weirder than that.

[Pettytyrant101]

So Eldo, Norc and Azriel who all liked the second one are only doing so to ' pander to someone whinging about grass' are they? The weak minded fools!

[Mrs Figg]

didnt say they couldnt prefer it, its just a really ridiculous critisism that anyone could possibly dislike a lovely poster because the grass variety is not quite right. ludicrous. especially as there is no material difference at all.

[halfwise]

Welcome back, Figgy. Did you ever put you foot down during the interminable debate over the color of horses? I don't know, I went off to watch a movie.

[halfwise]

ps, I agree the colors pop better in the first poster. Grass is grass.
The damn stuff's green, unless you want to get back into the horse debate.

[Mrs Figg]

not really, the grey thing made me want to kick someone in the goolies.

[Mrs Figg]

I mean really though, they try to make a beautiful poster taking two scenes from NZ and England, they seamlessly meld them to make a lovely image and then someone comes along and makes you all nitpick and dissect the thing and turn it into a nonexistant issue. for fooks sake.

[Ally]

Brb writing a letter to complain to the UN about this offensive poster

[Pettytyrant101]

Perhaps Mrs Figg if the argument were about different shades of grass you would have a point. But as it is not you dont.

The argument I have put forward against NZ for the Shire has been constistent for a very long time- the lighting is wrong, the landscape is wrong, the fauna is worng, the untidiness is wrong.
I am not alone in this view and I am well known for holding it:

'It's not just the type of grass, it's the 'Englishness' of the landscape and the tended gardens, the stone walls, the light...
Petty has noted all this. New Zealand works well enough for some of the film, but not for all of it in my opinion.'- Elthir

I made the second version of the picture in direct response to Eldo saying this-

'I still like the poster but I can't look at it now without stuff like the grass line jumping out at me.'- Eldo

I thought when I did it I was doing a nice thing (that'll teach me)- making Eldo a version he could enjoy without the problem he highlighted, whilst at the same time showing that the problem I had highlighted in the compositing of the two pictures could easily have been fixed.

Some people then liked the result:

Wow, that's really good!- Eldo

look at the result, just..it's perfect, no need to feel anoyed, and you made such little changes- Norc

The bit I dont understand is why you have such a problem with this series of events? With people liking the 2nd picture or with the discussion as to whether NZ Shire suitably represents the countryside Tolkien was envisioning? A valid discussion on a Tolkien forum I would think.

[David H]

not really, the grey thing made me want to kick someone in the goolies.

....me?!?!....

[Norc]

So Eldo, Norc and Azriel who all liked the second one are only doing so to ' pander to someone whinging about grass' are they? The weak minded fools!

well, I don't have a problem with the first one, but removing the bridge helped. but I still don't see the point it's just grass, maybe only that little meadow or whatever was less groomed?

[Mrs Figg]

As to the untidyness, you are wrong. I have lived in the Cotswolds, arguable Tolkiens idea for ME. and it is certainly not all tidy and manicured. There are many places exactly like the NZ part of the poster, because I have seen them. There are many wild grasslands like the picture shown. arguable the grasslands would have been even wilder in the 19th and early 20th century as there were not the heavy machinery of today, there is only so much 'tidying' and clipping a horse and plow can do. the industialization of the countryside arrived later, so that argument does not hold up. Also unless you are from the F.B.I and do a blow up with a microscope there is no way to tell the difference between NZ or English grass. Your version merely flattened the prospective, it did not materially change the flora.

[Pettytyrant101]

I wasnt trying to change the fauna - all I was doing was blending in the jarring line where the two images met and removing the bridge- I did nothing else to it- so for example where Halfwise comments the colours pop more in the first I find that odd- as the colours/contrast ect are exactly the same in both- I never altered them- I did everything with the clone brush and the spray gun.

And the picture you show Mrs Figg is a hillside- looks likes a wild meadow in fact of which there would have been plenty in the Shire, but not around the roads and the gardens of the hobbits which is where the first pic is- and we saw the gardens in Lotr's and they were not neat and tidy- but Tolkien tells us they where neat and ordered- english gardens in other words.- or like the land you can just glimpse in the background of the pic you posted- tended land, ordered land.

As I said before PJs Shire doesnt look bad it just is not right when compared with the climate, shape and tended nature of genuine english countryside which would make a better setting for the Shire - given its the land Tolkien was envisioning and invoking when writing about the Shire how could it not be more suited?

[David H]

It seems to me you're caught on the horns of a dilemma, Petty.

If you're arguing that Tolkien's Shire was intended to look like a thinly disguised English countryside from the late 19th or early 20th century, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with a stone bridge.

If on the other hand you're arguing that the stone bridge is anachronistic, then so are the the large, neat fields that replaced the jumble of little patches that was the standard farming practice before the industrial revolution.

If you're just talking about your personal vision of course, that's fine and you're absolutely entitled to it. But then PJ would be entitled to his as well.

Quite a dilemma!

[Pettytyrant101]

It seems to me you're caught on the horns of a dilemma, Petty.- David

I dont think I am David- my argument rests on NZ, being in a different hemisphere, with different lighting, fauna and climate which does not look like the north european lighting, climate of the Shire as described by Tolkien.
Sub to that argument is the gardens and land around Bag End which in the film are overgrown looking and unkempt- the complete opposite of a traditonal english garden which Tolkien invokes and indeed opposite to Bilbo's narrated words in the opening about 'well ordered tilled land'.
With regards that particular picture my main complaint against it was that the two images -the foreground NZ picture and the background English countryside had been badly composited- that is a technical complaint- and it was badly composited.

The bridge is a railway bridge- and looks like one to me- therefore is out of place in ME unless Tokien forgot to mention the trains.

[halfwise]

Well, whatever you did, there's a noticeable reduction in saturation in the second photo. I thought maybe you had changed the light which you complained about not being 'English'.

On the subject of light and color they had made dramatic changes during digital grading. It's very possible it would have looked better to you before they did this: go back and look at the digital grading segment in the extended edition appendices. I know they actually enhanced the green in the shire sequences in order to 'warm it up'. The exact color has nothing to do with New Zealand at all!

I like what they did, it looks more magical than the original, and Tolkien did in fact to the world being more green than it was today, though likely he was referring to the amount of vegetation rather than its color.

[David H]

The thing about the bridge that looks vaguely railway to me is the extremely flat grade. Roadway bridges often have a slight arch to them.

But to my eye what looks modern is the fields. They're laid out to be tilled by a tractor which is easier to turn than a horsedrawn plow but has a much larger turning radius. A horse-drawn field tends to be longer and narrower, and lay more carefully with the contours of the land. To me that's a much bigger issue than the shape of the arch of the bridge, but they are both clearly 19th or 20th century.

And while you would like English light rather than NZ light, you've never been able to describe exactly what the difference is so that I can understand the problem, especially when we have Mrs Figg saying the opposite.

Of course when I was in the English courntryside, the skies were always grey.

[azriel]

I have to agree & back Petty up. LOTRs, Middle Earth, IS an ENGLISH story, NOT a Maori Legend as PJ is widdling in. Im sure PJ said that the films have helped tourism for NZ, (did he get a back hander?) The LOTRs films plugged NZ well & how many in their droves booked flights etc to see "The Shire" ? & whatever sets etc were available. I cocur we have no "Theme Park" situation here for LOTRs,but, its an English Tale,& Im gonna dig my heels in about this one.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its just different David- I was recently watching the dvd with commentray on of the old show Robin of Sherwood, shot entirely in England- and they were comparing it to the (at the time) new BBC Robin Hood which was shot in central Europe- and they were saying how you could immediately tell it was not shot in England just from the light and wen toin to have along discussion about natural lighting and how it changes with latitiude- its hard to explain but obvious when you see it.

On th efdield sissie I agree the layout inthe pic is too modern- but its at least obciously tended and well maintained fields- with hedgrows and the like- and that is still closer in look to Tolkiens descriptions and comments in LotR's and Letters about the Shire than the NZ landscape is.

Halfwise- the two pics are saved in the same format and there were no changes whatsoever made to colour/brightness or saturation- I only used two tools and neither of those effects any of the above.

Thanks Azriel- starting to feel I was batting alone out here!