Doctor Who [3]

wow. you're both on each side of the scale xD I will try not to discuss this too much, as I don't have much to go on having seen very little of the Rose episodes, but Petty dear, love is nothing predictable. I mean the heart wants what the heart wants, even though they are very different. Maybe the doctor just fell for her courage? idk, but as I said, love doesn't always make sense.

as for the River Song relationship, I like that way more than the rose thing. Is just the whole thing, if a time lord shall "date" it must be in the wrong order and if a time lord shall ever find someone (avoiding spoilers) it must be someone like her. Maybe it seems a bit theatrical, maybe that is just your opinion, mrs Figg, but it can also be that the doctor doesn't always follow what River's feeling/thinking.

what the hell happened? do we have three doctor who threads? why?

Wasn't me!
Seems to automatically make a new thread after x amount of posts.

"I mean the heart wants what the heart wants"- Norc
He has two hearts and has had companions in the past that were at least as good looking, at least as courageous and as least as willing to die for him- Sarah Jane for example. But he never fell in love with any of them.
When Tom Baker was the Doctor he used to avoid being seen doing anything in public he felt would ruin the mystique of the Doctor- even eating in public was out as he felt it reduced the Doctor's enigmaticness (is that a real word? If not it should be!) to see him tucking into a plate of chips.
I think the Doctor falling in love with someone lke Rose (or any Companion) does the same- it reduces the character, makes him more like you and me and he is nothing like us, thats the point, Doctor who?

I do actually agree with you, although that is based upon not seeing much of Rose.

Dont get me wrong- its still Who -Id still recommend watching -it doesnt completely destroy the show or anything, it just never felt real to me that side of it.
Thats the thing with Who, everyone has Doctors, companions and eras that appeal more than others, but its all Who goodness at the end of the day.

Nice little interview, seems to be some time not long after they started, where Karen interviews Matt.



And the opposite, Matt interviews Karen



Given arguments on here there is a wonderful irony to Karens favourite companion being Rose!

'MATT SMITH will keep playing Doctor Who until at least 2014, he has revealed.
Show boss Steven Moffat has convinced him to stay by creating a “brilliant” series.
Matt already working on shows for the 2013 series, said: “His first episode sounds great.
“It hasn’t been written yet but the idea is as brilliant and as mental as you’d expect from Steven. So there’s a lot to look forward to.
“When Steven was going to pitch the next season to me not long ago, he said, ‘Are you ready to cry?’ ”
Matt, back as the Time Lord later this autumn, added that he couldn’t wait to get stuck into the Doctor’s 50th anniversary celebrations next year. He said: “We want to do 50 years — and everyone that’s been associated with the show — justice. We want to go, ‘Look, world, here is Doctor Who. It’s 50 years old, a science-fiction show, still going and going from strength to strength’.
“Steven will do something brilliant. He’ll do something grand or maybe something very simple but he’ll come to it as a fan.
“He’ll go, ‘What would I want to see?’ ”
Matt said he struggled to come to terms with what the role meant when he took it on. He said: “If you remember, when I took over, no one thought it would work. I was ‘too young’. David (Tennant) had come from a stellar era. I was unknown.
“For a month or two when I started I was like, ‘This is impossible. I can’t’ — just the pressure of it. Everyone was sort of going, ‘Go on, show us what you’ve got.’ I told myself, ‘If I can get through this I can get through anything’.” - the Sun




So chuffed to hear this! 50th Anniversary and at least 1 more series after 7 of Smith's Doctor and Moffat showrunning- couldn't be better!

Its funny you mentioning things not seeming authentic, because to me Matt Smith, no matter how good he is or how popular, for me personally is not the Doctor, I just dont get it. He is obviously popular and I dont want to get into the whole awards thing, but its only my opinion, and sometimes I see things differently. I much prefer Eccleston and Tennant as actors. Its got so bad that I cant watch the episodes with Smith, it bores me to tears, maybe its the change in style or writing, its a mystery, maybe it will get better with this new assistant. I really hope so. What I really dont understand is that I adore what Moffat has done with Sherlock, that for me is perfection.

It is a mystery of personal taste it seems Mrs Figg.
For me Smith is the best Doctor of the NUWho's by quite a bit and one of the best of all time. And Moffat is writting WHo full of invention and wit and wonder and scares- which is the Who I remember growing up with. RTD's was a bit too close to Eastenders for me and I sometimes wonder if the staunch (and often vocal) RTD/Tennant fans aren't missing the soap element (not thinking of you there Mrs Figg- more Tennant/RTD fan brigade that yell loudest on the Who forums).

Norc wrote:what the hell happened? do we have three doctor who threads? why?

We already had two. We've had a number of different threads that got long enough to split; it happens at 990 posts. This is the first thread to reach three installments, though. Congrats, Whovians.

Whovians for the biggest thread (even though at least half of it is just mainly me!!)

Matt mentions in the above interview his favourite Doctor is the 2nd one, Patrick Troughton (also one of my own personall favourites) and the Doctor I feel Matt most channels, with a touch of 4 and a bit of 6 and 7.

Hers a couple of clips from the 2nd Doctor, judge for yourself.

I dont find it soapy at all. I find RTD has a lot more humanity in a way, maybe thats what you are thinking about? I find Moffats writing a bit too clever and confusing for its own good and its as if he is saying whoo hoo look how clever I am with all this contortionism, he does the same thing in Sherlock to a certain extent, you expect to be made to think laterally in a detective novel but in Who for me its all about the human/Doctor relationship. I love that Rose had parents and that they played a part that they care about what happens to their children, I like Jackie especially, you can see her mind trying to get to grips with her Rose going off with a Timelord. I like that Marthas parents were not keen on her leaving her medical studies to follow him, if RTD did Donnas episodes too they seem for me richer and deeper, her father is moving and heartwarming. I find Moffat brittle and brilliant, but not warm, and not funny, and ultimately not human. I think Moffats assistants are not the Doctors friends to be by his side saving the world, Moffats assistants are like annoying kids he has to keep from getting killed, he keeps secrets from them, its like he doesnt trust them enough to tell them whats going on. He is also a hypocrite, he basically sacrifices the old Amy not letting her on the Tardis, saying its a paradox, since WHEN did he ever care about such things. He was cruel and very alien, whereas RTDs Doctor would have sacrificed himself to save his friends.

I don't know if its that RTD was soapy and my revelations are new to me so I am still figuring out why I had a funny reaction to Rose this time out.

It has to be said I still don't think I have seen all the eccelston eps as it was Squach who became a fan. There is no doubt that Rose has been her favourite, as mentioned before the only time I have ever seen her reduced to tears by telly/theatre/film is Roses departure.

I never totally connected with Eccelstons doctor, couldn't find my way in, which may affect my views on Rose, as unfortunatley does the writing of Mickey.. drives me mad. Loved Tennant and he drew me in, although again missed some early ones I think so affects my knowledge of Rose.

From this incomplete perspective it is inevitable that I saw a little of Martha being a Rose rehash. I loved Donna and I agree with Petty that to my mind she made the doctor more human than Rose did (Pompei in particular springs to mind) and in my memory she challenged him more than Rose did.

I love Smiths doctor (and I was nervous cause I loved tennant) because he is unpredictably and truely alien. The man has lived for near 1000 year,s has seen all of time and space - species and planets evolve and die, set himself up as a guardian of what is right and has no peers to truely question and challenge him, he should seem odd, cold, and ultimately strange despite his interactions with humans.

The other thing I loved was the introduction of more than one companion for the long term (the only old who I remember was McCoy with Ace and that only vaguely). Under RTD extra compannions where there as a temporary colour or examples of how poor most humans were (to me Mickeys sole purpose seemed to be to show that Rose was different as most people would be pathetic messes like him.) The fact of two compaions with a relationship between them inevitably changes the doctors relationship with them and the dynamics.

Also to talk of Smiths doctor being cruel seems a contradiction when you consider most of the doctors treatment of Mickey. For the most part he is dismissive and selfish (wanting to keep Rose without the interuption of Mickey) and then just completely lacking in thought for him... the running joke of him forgetting about him is not an example of a human doctor. Equally it is both Ecclestons and Tennants doctors who start the 'I am the doctor my word is final' stuff (the stuff I've recently seen is the cyberman stuff were The doctor knowingly sends them mad and so to their destruction.)

I don't necessarily find Rose all that sympathetic and she creates as many problems as other companions. But I can't quite put my finger on why I didn't like her this time.

I think part of it may be to do with the fact that I enjoy the cleverness of Moffats episodes and found a lot of RTDs so big on spectacle, not substance. It is no longer a surprise when we talk of favourite early episodes that most of mine end up being ones petty informs me were Moffat scripts.

One thing that surprised me was the idea of Amy being a 'girlie needing rescuing' (yeah I know its a bit of a paraphrase!) Because to me this is entirely what Rose is and what the whole attraction of the doctor is for her...dull life, nagging mum, boring job, wet boyfriend (and yeah the cliche of that bugs me)... the doctor is her escape.. to the point that she abandons everything and everyone for that. (Even Martha had doubts about that and returned to her family.)

Amy is different... her first interaction is with the doctor as a child and she retains that child like belief in him. She is a companion due to unfinshed business and unresolved issues... the doctor can't let go... even when he should. Rory is human perspective here, and actually, having reseen vampires of venice he also represnets the danger of the doctor to his companions. He is drawn in to be there for Amy, but at that early stage he recognises the danger 'do you know how dangerous you make people to themselves... what they would do for you?' (from memory, so not exact, but words to that effect.) What becomes clear is that despite seeing that he is drawn in too. (Yeah I love Rory... lots... how anyone having seen Mickey can call Rory wet and lifeless is beyond me.)


sorry for the ramble... don't know if it made sense or shows any real conclusions.. but it is what I think at the mo.

We share a very similar view of this it seems Kafria.

On the point of the Doctors cruelness, and in particular how he acts with old Amy that is the Doctor, Ecclestons and Tennants too.
It is Tennants Doctor in the Family of Blood two parter who hides himself from the Family not out of fear but to be kind to them- in the end they force his hand and he punishes them for eternity in some pretty cruel ways- he traps one in a mirror, puts another in permanent stasis and plonks him in a corn field as a scarecrow, he drops the mother into the event horizon of a black hole.
What he chooses to do to old Amy (and it was the only solution: the TARDIS couldnt have contained and survived the time paradox) is small beans compared to what he did to the Family.
Not to mention he destroyed his own enitre race and home planet as well as 99.9% of the Dalek race to end the Time War.
The Doctor at need is very cold, very alien and very dangerous. He has the blood of several entire species on his hands. Which comes up in the Vampires of Venice ending when she asks him if he can live with being responsible for the death of yet another entire species. His despair when she jumps in is all over Matt's face in that scene and tells you the answer.
I love how Moffat has used that aspect, such as in a Good Man Goes to War when he asks why they would want a Time Lord as a weapon and the answer is "Well, they've seen you." And he just sinks onto the chair horrified by self realisation of what he has become compared to the man who set out 900 odd years ago because he was bored.

I also dont see Amy as needing rescued, she needs the Doctor but thats for emotional reaons, her life is one of loss- the crack in her room has eaten her family and goodness knows what else, and then the Doctor, this ridiculous, fantastcial man appears- then disappears and doesnt come back- Amy's need for the Doctor is for me far more interesting than Rose or Martha's love.
With Donna she doesnt want any sort of love involved either, I found her interesting because she is a bit ignorant, a bit arrogant, brash and not really that interesting or deep a person at the start, but there is an awakening when she has to deal with the Doctor, Tardis, space ect in the middle of her wedding.
When he leaves she realises that maybe there is more to life than she thought, maybe she doesn't know it all. I think it is humblinfg for her.
She sees she has the potential to be something more, something better, and if she can find the Doctor again she can be that better person. And we see that happen to her as she evolves in her ideas and views into a more complete, understanding human being, which in turn makes the Doctor a better person-which is what makes her ending so cruel and horrible and for me was far more emotional and painful to watch than Roses departure.
I rate Donnas exit as the best of any companion in all Who. (Previously held by Jamie and Zoe, 2nd Doctor companions).

Bugger, my turn to ramble now, sorry.

edit extra ramble- it occured to me that scene with Tennants Doctor and Davros and the companions ready to use a weapon of mass destruction is pretty much exactly what Moffat is making his Doctor confront.
In that episode this exchange occurs-

Davros: The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun. But this is the truth, Doctor. You take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons. Behold your Children of Time transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor. You made this.
The Doctor: They're trying to help.
Davros: Already I have seen them sacrifice today for their beloved Doctor. The Earth woman who fell opening the Subwave Network.
The Doctor: Who was that?
Rose: Harriet Jones. She gave her life to get you here.
Davros: How many more? Just think! How many have died in your name? The Doctor. The man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself.

In Impossible Astronaut Smiths Doctor says "I've been running. Faster than I've ever run. And I've been running my whole life. Now it's time for me to stop. "
At Demons Run he is forced to to do what Davros said he could never do, look back at what he has done. River then drives this point home to him.

For me Moffat has contiued and expanded upon a theme that has always ben present thoughout Who- the difference this time is Moffat's Doctor is tackling it head on.

Because I think the mood needs a little lightening on this thread:

I think that Moffat has tried to obliterate the 9th and 10th Doctor, he seems not to be the same person Smith is so different, there is no connection to his past incarnations and that grates on my nerves. Eccky gave us the tormented being who had seen the horrors of war, a being not really human but in need of humanity to give his life meaning. Eccky and Tennant shared things with their assistants, they made him a better person and helped him solve misteries and save the world, they do it together and build up a strong bond of love. They did this side by side, but Smiths assistants are left waiting for him to turn up or have to run about aimlessly without actually doing anything constructive. Plus its always the Doctor who is in control, sometimes dismissive and flippant. I dont think Smith actually needs the assistants, he gets yelled at by Rory, but he just does his cold alien schtick. He is less human and therefore less compelling to watch, its the struggles of 9 and 10 that make it moving to watch. I cared what happened to RTDs assistants and I dont care about Moffats, I find them empty and pointless. Also with Moffat I find the stories so confusing it kind of spoils the story arc, its as if the story has lost importance over the flashy gimmicky timey wimey stuff.

there is no connection to his past incarnations - Mrs Figg

I really have to take strong issue with that -there are more of the previous incarnations blended into Smiths portrayal than any other Doctor ever I would say.

1's grumpyness.
He has 2's child like playfulness.
3's love of gadgets.
4's eccentricities.
5's innocence.
6's anger.
7's deceitfulness.
8's dapperness.

I have already said in above posts how the Demons Run story is merely a continuation of the story begun in the 10th Doctor, Tennant Davros episode.
His seeming coldness and cruelty is more abundant in the Tennant years- I already gave Family of Blood as an example of that and Waters of Mars is a classic example of his growing ego where he deliberetly breaks the rules of Time because he declares he is accountable to no one but himself any more.

Even dialogue is peppered with previous incarnations, from the celery reference in the Silurian two parter to his appraisal of Craigs flat "You've decorated. I don't like it" which is word for word what the 2nd Doctor said on seeing the Brigadiers office again after a long time.
Even the 2nd Doctor clip I showed above has the first and only other use of the Time Lord psychic message boxes outside of 11 receiving one of at the start of the Doctor Wife.
And I'm only scraping the iceberg here of all hints, nods winks, quirks, traits of previous Doctors, or connections to them there are peppered throughtout series 5 and 6.

Moffats Doctor more than most is a blending of previous incarnations plus Smith's own spin on it.
I really dont know how you can say he has no connections to his past selves.

A Dr Who?

I just realized what I am! But first I'll pose a question so I can answer it myself: Who watches Dr Who occasionally, but isn't a Fanatic and only a casual Fan?

Answr: A Dr Who Tourist!

(As oppposed to a Dr Who Purist!)

So why am I saying this? Because it offers Illumination in All Things! For instance: What is a person who is a casual Fan of Tolkien, and not a Purist? A Tolkien Tourist - and not really - as I once thought - a Tolkien Liberal! It goes on and on, you see...

This is what reading History of the Hobbit and reading Dr Who related posts in Forumshire do to you... You become a Lore Master (of sorts... )

Orwell you cannot have a Who purist as such given the shows concept is to constantly change in style, mood, tone and actors whilst retaining the basic central concepts.
Therefore you cannot be a Who Tourist as it no longer rymnes.

And btw Eldo, what's all this closing Repeat Threads business... Are you on an Tidy-up-un-messingness Mission or something?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Orwell you cannot have a Who purist as such given the shows concept is to constantly change in style, mood, tone and actors whilst retaining the basic central concepts.
Therefore you cannot be a Who Tourist as it no longer rymnes.

If it's so changeable, then why would anything have to Rhyme, Mr Smarty Kilt-britches!

Because those are the rules! I think...