Harry Potter

I seem to remember the original argument was whether HP was literature, which clearly it is.

The broader argument that arose from that was what I was adressing- which is what is art in litertaure?- and I happen to think HP doesnt qualify on those terms, regardless of an other merits it might have.
And I have readily conceded that the definition of art in any field is not a black/white affair and never has been. There will always be areas of contention. On that basis I cant go along with your claim 'it clearly is' and I would say, 'it probably isn't'. There is nothing ever clear about the matter of art. Definitive statments probably dont help.

HP is absolutely art.
Rowling is a top-notch storyteller the books are page-turners, she has a real talent for plotting. she displays genius as a weaver of plots At its best, the narrative is riveting, the book in the series that displays the best combination of editing, writer’s craft and plotting is Prisoner of Azkaban To be able to sustain that through so many books is no small feat.
Humor blended with the fantasy
Insight into the human condition
Inventive world-building
The plots grow in complexity as the series continues, particularly as Rowling draws in the back stories about Harry Potter’s parents and their relationships with other professors, wizards, etc.
As Rowling grows as a writer, Harry grows as a character, and young adults grow as readers.
The sense of nostalgia that ties us to the characters and the books
Particular well-developed characters — Lupin, and Sirius for example: there’s a dark but melancholy quality about them that stays with people or Dolores Umbridge, who is one of the most satisfyingly chilling characters Rowling created, far more sinister than Voldemort
A good representation of surly adolescence
Particular scenes, such as in the graveyard, when those Voldemort has killed come out of his wand
Emotional connections to characters — Harry trying to understand his parents without having known them at all
The fan-base connections to a community with shared experiences
Elegantly recurring threads (characters, history, themes) from the early books that find their knots and conclusions in the later ones.
The use of allegory and myths.
One of the most interesting discussions centers on the community of readers. Some have suggested that though reading is often a solitary experience, many of us read Harry Potter as part of a community, discussing, interacting, writing fan fiction.

None of those things necessary make it art- Ulysees probably doenst meet most of those critirea yet is considered art.
The question then is why?

Art is subjective.... to me a lot of 'art' is utter horseshit but others insist on calling it art.

Like beauty, it is often in the eye of the beerholder.

only because I HATE Yates

last 4 Harry Potter movies are like the Sixers this year. So much potential &hype, then one guy ruins everything. Yates, Bynum respectively

Bakemonogatari, Ally?

NB did you ever get a chance to watch Death Billiards? I thought it was pretty good but I think I prefer LWA.

Eldorion wrote:

love it.

Eldorion wrote:Bakemonogatari, Ally?

NB did you ever get a chance to watch Death Billiards? I thought it was pretty good but I think I prefer LWA.

Yes sir.

Spoiler:

Yup that trailer is pretty damn much what I saw when I tried (and failed) to watch HP.

Ive watched HP, I tried to like it,but,Im sorry, I dont really like it. Only because, I think, I feel a tinge of plagerism ? IDK? Theres things there that I feel have been nicked from other stories/films. And Im not keen on the constant sucking up & extoling HP as some great "2nd coming". But, as a childs fantasy film,its a great idea ! What kid wouldnt love to be HP ? I like Hogwarts! being part of a gang that have adventures,sneaking around in the dark, its great fun ! Praps the books are better ?? I havnt read any,but I do remember seeing QUEUES of many people excitedly waiting for the shop to open at midnight,to buy the latest instalment ! & so many were dressed up as a character from HP. They were laughing & happy & smiling,& it set a great atmosphere ! (that,or it was drugs! )

I tried reading the first book to my little brother- I dont know who got bored first, him or me (and Im not a bad book reader, do the voices and everything!)

It struck me as a book with an adult centric view written like a childrens book. It ddnt seem to me to appealing to children from their perspective at all- which completely dumbfounded me as I had assumed from their popularity that they would be good quality childrens books- like Dahl or something.
I found instead it was dull and dry and like a jaded adult daydreaming.


I also agree that it 'borrows' heavily from other sources.

azriel wrote:Praps the books are better ??

The books are great, the kind you can't stop reading, the kind that makes you late for school or work because you stayed up all night in order to finish reading the chapter, and then the next one, and then the next after that and so on. The films are crap. At best they're just less crap

Don't mind Petty, he's just an angry man

yepp, the books are better by miles. some of the HP movies are plain aweful (like the fourth and fifth for instance)

Clearly a lot of kids disagreed with you about it being appealing to children, Petty. I never found it dry at all, not at the age of six and not as I've grown older and more discerning, though I have been able to see some of the flaws as I've grown up.

I never read any Dahl growing up -- only ever saw the movie adaptations of some of his more famous books -- so I can't speak to the comparison, but I like that HP told an expansive story with a large cast of characters. Clearly a lot of kids were able to keep up despite the (relative) complexity.

it certainly got more and more complex

Simul post (good to see you, Ringdrotten! ).

The books are definitely better than the films. I don't say this about every book-to-film adaptation, but in the case of HP it's very true.

Ally wrote:Yes sir.

Spoiler:

I was kind of frustrated by the ending the first time I saw it, but after some reflection I think I understand what they were aiming for, even if it's not the sort of storytelling that I'm a big fan of. It was well-made and looked phenomenal. I wasn't sure what to expect from Madhouse since they've lost a lot of talent in recent years but they've still got it.

NB I wish we had a dedicated anime thread, but my previous attempts to convince people here to watch anime have not met with much success (partially due to Doctor Who distracting everyone ). It's nice to know I'm not the only person on this forum who watches anime.

I love the diversity here! just cos you guys differ on a topic actually makes me wanna read the books now ! But from what Ive seen in the films, I still feel niggled about the little "borrowings" that went on ! Ringdrotten got me more interested, (thankyou!) He sounded so passionate !

Don't mind Petty, he's just an angry man- Ringdrotten


That may be true but doesnt mean I might not be right! (at least occasionally)


Clearly a lot of kids disagreed with you about it being appealing to children, Petty. - Eldo


Hence my use of the word 'dumbfounded' Eldo.

I still am- I still cant see what the appeal is really- well I sort of can, it steals enough from other genuine childrens classics and stirs it all up in a pot but it read so, dull, for a childrens book- it seemed to lack colour and vitality and spark.

Give me anything from Enid Blyton to James and the Giant Peach with Lewis Carol and Tolkien along the way before HP- at least those books feel alive.


but my previous attempts to convince people here to watch anime have not
met with much success (partially due to Doctor Who distracting everyone- Eldo

I can take small doses- I enjoyed Cwboy Beebop but I couldnt watch to much of it at a go- it all starts to look and feel a bit, samey to me after a while even when the stories were really good. I dunno, something abut anime animation doesnt do it for me, not sure if its the actual animation or the stylisation- but something just doesnt quite work for me.
And hey, your anime thread is at least as popular as my comics one

And lets face it Who- tough competion.

azriel wrote:I love the diversity here! just cos you guys differ on a topic actually makes me wanna read the books now ! But from what Ive seen in the films, I still feel niggled about the little "borrowings" that went on ! Ringdrotten got me more interested, (thankyou!) He sounded so passionate !

The borrowings you mention are present in the books as well, but what modern fiction doesn't borrow? They really are wonderful books, a mix of the lighthearted and the dark, the humourous and the serious. What Petty calls lack of colour, vitality and spark would be correct if you replaced "lack of" with "characterised by"

Well I try! (I have o earn my crabbit title somehow you know- nobody ever appreciates the work and effort of being a crabbit bastard )

And there is borrowing and nicking ideas wholesale and cobbling them together with other ideas nicked wholesale. Parts of HP are like a who's who of great British childrens literature (in fact I had more fun spotting all the stolen bits than I did with the entire rest of the book)

" but what modern fiction doesn't borrow?" Ringdrotten
True, in the world of books,films,music & fashion, NOTHING is really new. But JKR annoys me because she's heralded as such a great writer & the books are all her OWN idea as tho everything she ever wrote was original ? But thats me being picky ! (& we say"crabby" down here) Ive been here on this asylum..oooooops ! I mean FORUM! since last October & this is the 1st exchange of words we've had Ringdrotten ! been nice !