BEREN AND LUTHIEN (THE ADAPTATION)

Odo Banks

We're talking about potential directors and actors on another thread, but why not discuss how the ADAPTATION should go?

Questions immediately arise:

How much do we play with the storyline to make it filmable?

Should we be as faithful to the text as humanly possible?

Should anything be left out?

How do we deal with all those "singing" battles (and Luthien's singing in Doriath)?

More questions jump to mind.

Oh Eldorion - where to start?

Odo

GB Can we alter BEREN AND LUTHIEN (THE MOVIE) to BEREN AND LUTHIEN (DIRECTOR AND ACTORS)???

Odo Banks

Not sure where to start, but Dior's birth might be a nice ending.

Odo

Tar-Palantir

Hi, i just found these threads and think its an awesome idea!!!
It's such a gripping story, so I think it should stay as close to the text as possible (I suppose everyone here thinks that though)
On the other hand, there would have to be some adaptation. I think the singing battles are the most obvious: in a film there'd have to be a lot of magic at those points. What we must remember is that Silmarillion was written as a collection of myths and stories, and the idea of Luthien defeating Sauron (is that right?) by singing strikes me as very much a mythical representing of their struggle, and I don't think it was intended to be completely literal (perhaps I'm wrong, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise). Therefore, I think this would have to be made into more of a kind of "magic duel". That's what I think anyway.

I think a good place to start would be an introduction to Beren, and his life before he met Luthien (then again, I can't really remember exactly what it was he did before meeting Luthien - did he live alone on the wild for a bit?)

Eldorion

Thanks for starting this thread Odo.

'How much do we play with the storyline to make it filmable?'


I would alter the story line as little as we can while still having the movie flow and work as a movie. Obviously that means we can't just take the original text and expect that to work as a screenplay, but I think that keeping the original structure of the story and working in the original dialog wherever possible would be good.

'Should we be as faithful to the text as humanly possible?'

The obvious limiter on faithfulness is quality as movie. I however do not think that quality as a movie and faithfulness as an adaptation is a zero-sum game; it's possible to have both. Given the vague and incomplete state of Beren and Luthien as it appears in The Silmarillion I don't think that it will be too hard.
Should anything be left out?

Not if we're going by the version in The Silmarillion, there's little enough in there as it is. That said, I haven't read that chapter in a while (I will when I get home and can), so there might be a few places to take out, but I don't think that there will be many, if any.

How do we deal with all those "singing" battles (and Luthien's singing in Doriath)?

I would show them. Luthien in Doriath especially since its a pivotal part of the story and runs little risk of being seen as cheesiness (music as part of a love story isn't really a shocker). Finrod and Sauron could be trickier to pull off without weirding out audiences, but perhaps having the singing accompanied by two competing musical themes (worked into the soundtrack) would help. I'll think about this some more.

Tinuviel

I'm reading the story as of right now, and their is very little that could be cut out. I think its more so tying things together, and creating dialog. most of the story is told with very little dialog, which could be a challenge for making a film adaptation. There would need to be added dialogs (obviously) made from what little we are given in the book. I had the thought of Beren travelling by himself in the wilderness and being accompanied by animals (since he is friend to any beast that is not wicked) and occasionally talking to them.
And yes, with so much magic involved with the story, it will be hard to pull of the singing battles, or even Luthien's hair growing and disguising themselves as beasts.
I'm starting to think that this task will be harder to take on than LOTR!

Odo Banks

Your idea of competing "musics" (if you don't mind me putting it that way?) has already crossed my mind, Eldorion. I was thinking of the Music of the Ainur and Melkor's desire to compose separate from the 'team' (so to speak). Magic and Music together and wordless singing could work - Celtic (Luthien) and Germanic-Wagnerian (Sauron) as one idea???

As to dialogue, that is the toughest thing. Somehow we need to avoid "archaic" dialogue. No thous and thees for a start. There is no reason we couldn't use actual dialogue from the book and add to it. That would be the test of a great script writer, to add but be true.

The idea of Beren talking to animals would be fine, handled properly, but I don't think the animals should talk back - let's not go Disney here.

The landscapes should be "real" where possible. Middle Earth is a beautiful natural world, if wild, and Morgoth's lands an ugly mimicry (CGI could help here especially). The monsters must be realistic - National Geographic sort of, and put them in real environments when they battle our heroes.

While I think we should stay as much as possible with Beren, we should not ever lose sight of the fact that Luthien is the biggest hero. Let's not make Beren too heroic (I mean not too physically powerful - like a super hero - but we must allow his courageous spirit shine through the darkness!) His life must always be at great risk and his mortality shown. If we're not afraid he'll be killed or captured, then he won't work on film. We need to identify with his frailty as well as with his strength.

Luthien should remain slightly distant. Let's not risk sublimating the Magic and Mystery that surrounds her by making her a stock heroine. I don't how we can do it, but we must keep her down to earth but also remote somehow - she must have an inner natural beauty as well as an outer beauty. Wow! She'll be hard to cast.

Hey! This might be a great opportunity to have a female hero who is genuinely a 'female' hero and not some Conan with girl parts! We'll need female script writers - absolutely!

This is exciting! I need to catch my breath and give someone else a turn!


Odo

Tar-Palantir

I agree with all that Odo, especially about Luthien being the true hero.
But I think you could get away with some archaic dialogue, when Thingol speaks to Beren for the first time, for instance. He's angry and proud, so I think he could probably use old language. That having been said, I completely agree about avoiding it for general dialogue.

Odo Banks

My fear with archaic language is that we might be trying to be too grand and heroic. In some of the scenes in the LOTR movies, I think PJ tried too hard to give the characters lordliness and dignity - and ended up making them seem over-the-top. The natural presence should show forth without over-acting or CGI tricks. (Ian McKellan was brilliant in this. His Gandalf was REAL! And Theoden was beaut! Sad about Galadriel and Elrond though. And Celeborn and Denethor - the memories bring pain!)

And I must watch some truly beautiful (and subtle) love stories to get my head around how the romance should be handled. (Can the ladies help with suggestions?) The scene with Arwen telling Aragorn that if he is dreaming then it is a good dream, to me is a brilliant example of what we should be looking for. But some lighter but still intimate scenes will be required too. (Beren must trust Luthien from the start. No ghastly "Oh you're just a girl," crap!!!)

And I think PJ's monsters were generally good, but I think he did not build suspense all that well at times. If our movie could move a little slower and build suspense, I think that would work well. In other words, let's trust our viewers like T did his readers to follow a storyline that is not all bells and whistles and CGI monsters!

And if we put in some humor - and I think we should - let's make it situational rather than slapstick. Make it a pun-free zone - and definitely no comical creatures. I only mention humor because it is part of the human condition, even in the darkest of times, and Beren and Luthien should be serious but not severe; and somehow we must get light in so that the despairing and dangerous parts can work better on our emotions. If the characters are too dour, we will not be able to identify with them. They must not take themselves TOO seriously - nor resort to ever being silly, I hasten to say!

Yes, this won't be easy, but it'll be worth it in the end.

Odo

Tinuviel

Well, i'm a girl, so here is my say Odo
Unlike the Arwen Aragorn scenes (which for some reason bug me, though i don't know why, though it could very well be that I was obsessed with ARagorn...) Beren and Luthien shouldn't talk as much. For example...
As Beren walks through Doriath, following Luthiens voice, I think the moment he sees her (and we'll have to find one amazing actor for this) should simply look at her, and the audience will feel the overwhelming love he is feeling at that moment. Then we see Luthien, brilliantly fair with flowing dark hair and wonderous gray eyes, singing like a Nightengale. She begins to wander away, and an awe stricken Beren calls out to her, "Tinuviel" breaking the silence. She turns around, and you see in her face the same emotion that was on Beren's, yet wonder also. She looks at him, and she knows then her doom is decided. And she begins to sing to him, and they walk through the trees in complete bliss, their love blossoming as quickly as can be percieved by mortals alike.

That's what I call love at first sight. I think Tolkein does also. You see very much of him in Beren, the young tolkein at war. Alone and frightened and tired after long days of traveling and battle, then to look upon the face of the most fair maiden to ever walk the earth.How he felt, perhaps, when he met his wife the first time. We need to express that in the film.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This movie CANNOT be Romeo and Juliet esc. This story deserves not to be compared too. (like Twilight

Odo Banks

Love it, Tinuviel!

I'm about to read the tale again. I'm playing with the idea of using the actual dialogue as a starting point for the scenes they're in. From there, maybe work out more dialogue, if necessary, to flesh them out. This method, one hopes, would help cover quite a few romance scenes. And from a framework something like that, we might begin to piece together the fuller script... (There's not a lot of dialogue, so why shouldn't it all be in?) The action scenes should be more straight forward, I think (though this doesn't take into account all that singing!)

A starting point...???
What about Beren out alone scouting for enemy activity in a treed valley. Maybe see a warg down the valley snuffling about to add a little tension. (This could be during starting credits). Then, to his surprise, a bird flies in from the direction of his village (quite some way away) sending up a "danger" call to alert him about trouble there. (This would be the Orcs killing the folk back home). The audience would then immediately know that he can converse with the beasts and lead fairly early in the movie to him hunting down the Orc band... (No dialogue yet... which should make things easier to begin with!)

Odo

Odo Banks

Had a change of mind per my last post. The movie should probably start with Gorlim being tricked into believing his wife is still alive and his capture by the enemy, followed by his betrayal of Barahir's location. This could be a kind of prologue perhaps. I think T's story arc is best - yet again - and it might be best to stick with it!

This going to be hard to get right...

Odo

Tar-Palantir

I like it, Odo it lets the audience know why Beren is just wandering around on his own when he meets Luthien, and that's really where the Beren and Luthien Tale starts.
Great idea!

Tinuviel

I like the whole prolouge idea, only I would put the history of the Silmarils in it and the creation of Middle Earth a bit, to set the stage and age :mrgreen:. Then start the movie with Gorlim's betrayal and then zooming over to the camp where orcs are running, and then going back between Beren and the attack. I think that would be a dramatic way to begin the movie. Maybe BEren could be hunting the warg, but then is startled when he hears the bird calling, and looks back toward his home and sees smoke. Then we could get some dramatic music as he runs back to the camp in vain. And then the story as it is!

Odo Banks

Remember, this a movie for the Tolkien fans! The only thing we need be careful about is setting scenes and characters properly - and of course with enough explanation to make it clear where we are in the story.

What I mean I'll try to explain by giving a (potential) example.

*

SCENE !@14*#
Huan (a great hound) finds Luthien despite her enchantments (remember he's from Valinor not easily duped). He takes her to meet Celegorm and Curufin. In conversation Luthien finds out who they are, and they her.

LUTHIEN:
"You are elves - and perhaps Noldorions, I see. Who are you?

CELEGORM:
You may not know us, but I know you, for the beauty of Luthien is renowned, and you surely can be no other! Let me introduce myself, I am Celegorm, and here you see my dear brother, Curufin.

LUTHIEN (slightly frowning):
You are sons of Feanor then!

CURUFIN (cynical smile):
That we are, your Highness, that we are!

*
Okay clumsy - not good - but you get the idea! Fans will know - non-fans can catch up when they will - at least they'll know they're elves and know their names. Mind you, by this time the brothers have already met Beren in Nagathrond, so the viewing audience should already know them. Luthien would be meeting them for the first time and need an introduction. The elves will guess that Luthien is searching for Beren (who by now is off questing with Finrod Felegund), but they will hardly mention that! And Huan's saying nothing at this stage.

Look, I 'm making this up as I go....! I hope you get what I'm driving at. Surely there are enough fans to make a Purist movie pay!

The Silmaril's and the Oath of Feanor's sons (and Morgoth, the Dark Lord, of course) can be mentioned here and there in passing to reinforce the drama, but not to dumb it down for non-Tolkienite heathens. (If the movie sends non-Tolkienites off to read the Silmarillion, all the better!)

Anyway, the story (romance and action) is good enough to allow for some minor confusion about the whys and wherefores. A lot of movies leave me wondering about unexplained details.

Odo

Tinuviel

Yes, but not too much unexplained. There are ways to fit in little details into dialouge that some people in the audience catch the first time, others after several. THat little bit you wrote Odo was quite good actaully. I constantly wonder how people would say things in this story, simply because of the little dialogue. But I always thought of Beren as a strong man with strong wits, and isn't afraid to laugh at danger. Luthien is brave and powerful, and takes on a different approach to danger. She faces it with her own light and beauty, and you don't really ever find a frightened Luthien other than when Beren almost dies (several times...) I find it interesting that Tolkien has a feminine hero here, and I think that women need to see that they can be the heroines, not just the men.

As to Luthien singing....
I believe when she is singing, its like far off harmonic music, and as you get closer to her, you hear her incredible voice, and your heart melts. Maybe something along the lines of New Age music perhaps? and in battle, when she begins to sing, all is silent and only her voice is heard. And the audience sees the results of her beautiful voice on the enemy. So you're hearing pretty, but seeing ugly...

Odo Banks

I imagine Beren as being quite young in physical terms, but made prematurely old (except in 'love' at the beginning) by his hard life in Dorthonian. I also imagine him being a quite humble not proud person (like Viggo was as Aragorn). And Luthien I see as quite fearless. In some ways I see their only true fear is the fear of losing each other. From the first time they look into each others eyes an unbreakable bond is formed.

I have an idea that the first word he utters in the movie is "Tinuviel!"

Beren up to now would have had quite a few (wordless) adventures, including all that horror and danger he endures in the valley of spiders and dark enchantment while on his way to Doriath. Imagine! Just when the audience begins to think, "Oh my goodness, this story is just too horrific and bleak to bear!" Beren comes stumbling through the Girdle of Melian into a sunlit forest glade - or similar - and sees HER for the first time. At last there is light and hope (and love) in the movie! He tries to come to her but she keeps disappearing on him, until at last, he gets close enough to call out one word, one name! "Tinuviel!"

Tinuviel, your music ideas are appealing, but it will be a real trick to get the feel right. Of course, not many things of true worth are ever easy, so the pain will be worth it! And btw thank you for your kindness regarding my little bit of dialogue.

And you too, Tar-Palantir, thanks for your enthusiasm and encouragement!

Talking over Tolkien's Great History surely gets the creative juices flowing, don't it!

Odo

Tinuviel

Indeed!
Only one thing.
Beren should utter some words, like when he takes the ring from the orcs and runs away. After that there really doesn't have to be dialogue other than short phrases and ONAMOTOPIA (i know i spelled that wrong...)
Otherwise, I'M LOVIN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is movie is as epic as the quest it's telling!

Odo Banks

Sorry, but I can't agree. If Beren regains the ring in silence, I think it will say more than him saying anything. His hate can shine, through brilliantly low-key acting. Obviously we need someone who can say a lot without saying anything! (You need a quality of young actor in the league of Ian McKellan for this. But who? Other thread anyway!) A few grunts and groans would be okay, of course.

I hope you don't think of him as a wise cracking braggart type? He must kill his enemies with chill intensity, I think. Remember, the Orcs fear him because of what he does hunting them in Doriath before Sauron arrives to hunt him with an army. I imagine him as a silent and clinical killer who actually turns the terror back on Morgoth's crew. Not with super strength and bravado, but with sheer efficiency. He must stalk his enemy ruthlessly but believably.

Beren's softer? lighter? side might come out after he meets Luthien. If he's unrelentingly dour, I don't think the character will work with audiences (including me).

I confess I don't know what ONAMOTOPIA is - whether spelt right or wrong! (I certainly hope Beren won't have to say it in the movie - irrespective of what it means!)

Hey! I just read "Of Beren and Luthien" again (second time in a week). It's certainly a very powerful story. I now understand why some say it is the center of T's creation. Only the closest of adaptations is acceptable!

I reckon some of T's prose can be reworked quite readily into dialogue by the way, which will help with the script writing.

Odo

Tinuviel

Onomatopia are words like WHOOSH or POW. words that make noise.
And I agree, beren shouldn't be a wise guy, but more so a person who, once he's met Luthien, has the confidence of a man in love.
And i think when beren takes the ring, right before he departs, should say something like, "This does not belong to you" with some venom and anger and sorrow as well. Just to set the stage.
Yet I feel that if there isn't enough dialogue, the story won't flow as easily. I saw this pochahontas movie with Colin Farell in it, and the majority of it was without dialogue, and i was completely lost because of it. Dialogue helps show passage of time. By no means am I implying that much of it is needed, but some perhaps...

Odo Banks

I'm thinking 20- - 30 minutes at start before Beren talks. It's his first word that counts: "Tinuviel!"

But I imagine the Orcs talking during Gorlim's capture and torture, and shortly later Sauron talking to Gorlim when the latter breaks and gives up Barahir's hideout. Gorlim's ghost also speaks to Beren.

My thoughts, of course, are evolving on this. We can use a series of quick scenes to show Beren stalking and killing Orcs in clever and unexpected ways, thus inducing their fear of him. This could be used as a device to show time passing. You know, Winter kills, Spring kills, Summer kills, Autum kills - four years swishing past, inter-spaced with scenes where he befriends wild things. After that, his journey through the forests in the Mountains of Terror on the flight to Doriath - which would not require talk, only building horror and action).

Odo

Tinuviel

I like that! Very Much! I'm still trying to think how to pull of the scene with the ring without dialogue....
Perhaps this...
We here orcs talking about their victory and them gaining the ring, while BEren intensely listens. Then he attacks them with a blind fury, and we see him walking away, barrying his father ect. but at the end we see him looking at the ring (maybe go to a flashback of when he was young with his father?)
then putting it in his pocket (or on his hand) and then your 4 year sequence with AWESOMELY intense music (of course <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> ) But also think that before Beren meets LUthien, we should see some of Luthien and how she lives, or just Thingol and Melian talking about her, just to foreshadow things a bit and to equally weigh the background stories of both characters.
And are there any pictures by John Howard or somone of Huan or any characters from the Silmarillion in this story? I know there's one of Luthien for sure...

Odo Banks

Perhaps during his four years of Orc-stalking, Beren can have a few dreams in which he sees Tinuviel? But he doesn't know who she is.

Script Idea.
SAURON (to his Orcs when he sends them out after Barahir)): "After you have killed him, bring me the ring he wears. It is a trinket gifted to him by my friend Finrod - and I would have it for my collection."

As to Huan. What kind of dog are were talking about if we think of "Hounds"?

I don't think Beren needs to kill any Orc but the leader who has Barahir's ring. This throws the others into confusion, and Beren escapes with the ring. Why not leave any major heroics with Beren until later in the storyline - what do you think? Until he meets Luthien, I feel Beren should be a tragic desperate individual.

Your idea about awesome music, I'm not sure. Shouldn't we be patient and wait until we get to scenes like Huan fighting Sauron (as Werewolf) before we begin to unleash the strongest music?

Odo

Gandalfs Beard

Alrighty, I've re-read the story and feel I can offer a few comments now .

First, I'm not entirely certain that Beren needs to be entirely speechless until he spies Luthien. The lack of extensive dialogue in the story is due more to Tolkien's storytelling style than any particular character trait. Having said that, there wouldn't be much of a need for dialogue between the time Beren discovers his father's death and later comes across Luthien.

I agree, he should seem brooding and desperate particularly during this period, but with a noble and yet humble soul, in short, much like Viggo's Aragorn. I don't really know how old he's supposed to be, but I like David Thewlis for the part (he plays Remus Lupin in the Potter films), but at 46 he may be too "old". Shame that.

I love the idea of Beren having premonition dreams about Luthien during his Orc killing spree Odo.

Now Huan should be a large dog, big enough for Luthien to ride on. Possibly an Irish or Russian Wolf-hound with special effects to make him look bigger. I'll check my dog books and when I have a firmer idea I'll try to find some pictures to post.

Interestingly, Huan is limited to speak only 3 times in his life. Not certain the best way to handle that yet. I actually liked the way it was done in the Narnia films, but would it work in a film geared more for adults? Perhaps, we are talking about making the film for fans of the story, so they would be prepared for that.

As for the singing battles, that could present a problem. I like the music from many musicals, and have no problem with it when they are stage productions. But it takes me right out of a story when people sing their dialogue, so I'm not a big fan of musicals as realistic drama. But i am thinking that if it is presented as wordless vocal Magic--maybe it could be pulled off.

That is to say, the characters would just vocalize certain tones in an operatic manner, perhaps electronically enhanced and we could see the sound waves rippling through the air and vibrating the surrounding props and set until the resonant frequencies shatter certain objects.

Anyway, just a few thoughts from me to start.

Odo Banks

Hello GB, I wondered what you were up to. Good to see you were using your time wisely.

This talk of singing raises an interesting point. I remember that Saruman sings (wordlessly?) in FOTR when he brings the snow down on Gandalf, so what you say about music corresponds with what has already been done to some degree and with some success.

I must look up your hounds on Google. I agree we should up-size whatever we find, but keep whatever we choose "real". I really like the idea of our Movie seeming realistic - almost National Geographic. What an interesting challenge to make all the Magic seem Natural. This fits with a peculiar view I have that Luthien is almost a Gaian figure.

As to Beren's age. I would have thought "quite" young, eighteen at the start? When he meets Luthien he'd be about twenty two - though matured by adversity.

As to Beren not saying anything, it's just I can't imagine him having cause to say anything of real interest until he meets his Love, so why not use the opportunity for an especially Uplifting Moment? He calls her name! Wow! I reckon. Wow! And what if he befriends his animals and initially talks in bird or animal language to begin with - I mean mimic their sounds to converse with them.

On the issue of him befriending animals, I've got some ideas how we could do it, but later... My post is long enough already!

Odo

Odo Banks

Irish Wolf Hound - double the size with CGI - perfect!

Odo