Beren and Luthien

A new thread to discuss the story (in all its versions), and the forthcoming publication of the stand alone book by the same name.

What do you think we can expect from the new book? The various press releases haven't been entirely clear whether it is an expanded 'novelization' of the story as told in The Silmarillion akin to The Children Of Hurin  (which seems unlikely given the various widely divergent and incomplete drafts of the story) or merely an annotated anthology compiling the various drafts into one volume (or perhaps it is a bit of both, IIRC there is at least one substantial unpublished version of the story (a prose version of The Lay Of Leithian)), either way I'm not so so sure BAL will have the same impact COH did back in 2007, whilst the story of BOL is arguably more accessible, COH was still riding on the hype of LOTR and Christopher Tolkien had several reasonably complete manuscripts to work from...as excited as I am by this release, there's a part of me that feels it is a cashgrab several decades too late.

Alan Lee will once again be on illustrating duties, are there any scenes in particular from the story you are keen to see illustrated?

Will you be getting this release? I really enjoyed COH, but as seems to be the case with BOL most of the material was already published elsewhere.

Rather morbid question...but should we expect this to be Christopher Tolkien's last work as editor of his father's writings? (he's 93 this year, I had expected him to retire after COH and hand the role onto someone else, but to his credit he keeps surprising us with more new projects)) Although there still appears to be a substantial amount of unpublished writing by Tolkien, little of it is connected directly to Middle Earth (various unpublished poems, several short stories, over a thousand letters and extensive academic writings (lecture notes and essays from his career at Oxford and Leeds university) etc), and 40 years on from the authors death you have to wonder whether much of it merits publication...

I was definitely surprised when this was announced since Christopher Tolkien/the Tolkien Estate in general had previously been very firm about Beren and Lúthien and The Fall of Gondolin not being in a developed enough form for a treatment in the same vein as The Children of Húrin. I can't imagine that situation has changed in the intervening decade unless there was some monumental new manuscript discovered that has been kept hushed up, which strikes me as exceedingly unlikely. So I think the book will be an anthology of various versions of the tale, perhaps including some previously unseen minor variations. But IIRC the press release made it sound like there was going to be something more substantial so who knows. Could just be the publisher trying to make the book more marketable, or it could be something more, though my money's on the former.

Given the number of new works Christopher has edited since The Children of Húrin in 2007 I don't think there's been any public sign of decreasing vitality, but there's always the question of how much is left that could be published as a full-length book. If Beren and Lúthien turns out to be an anthology that might be a sign that the well is running dry, though it's equally likely that they just wanted to do something special for the centenary. And I'm sure there will continue to be new revelations in Tolkien Studies and other journals regardless of whether there are any more books.

Edit: now that I think about it though, I wonder how involved (if at all) Adam Tolkien has been with his father's recent books. He was credited as assisting with The Children of Húrin but I can't recall if he was mentioned in the acknowledgements of any of the subsequent volumes.

Eldorion wrote:I was definitely surprised when this was announced since Christopher Tolkien/the Tolkien Estate in general had previously been very firm about Beren and Lúthien and The Fall of Gondolin not being in a developed enough form for a treatment in the same vein as The Children of Húrin. I can't imagine that situation has changed in the intervening decade unless there was some monumental new manuscript discovered that has been kept hushed up, which strikes me as exceedingly unlikely. So I think the book will be an anthology of various versions of the tale, perhaps including some previously unseen minor variations. But IIRC the press release made it sound like there was going to be something more substantial so who knows. Could just be the publisher trying to make the book more marketable, or it could be something more, though my money's on the former.

Given the number of new works Christopher has edited since The Children of Húrin in 2007 I don't think there's been any public sign of decreasing vitality, but there's always the question of how much is left that could be published as a full-length book. If Beren and Lúthien turns out to be an anthology that might be a sign that the well is running dry, though it's equally likely that they just wanted to do something special for the centenary. And I'm sure there will continue to be new revelations in Tolkien Studies and other journals regardless of whether there are any more books.

Edit: now that I think about it though, I wonder how involved (if at all) Adam Tolkien has been with his father's recent books. He was credited as assisting with The Children of Húrin but I can't recall if he was mentioned in the acknowledgements of any of the subsequent volumes.

Yeah, I was really surprised when it was first announced, the centenary seems a fitting occasion to mark...but I am rather inclined to think it is the publisher 'bigging up' the format for the wider public, perhaps it's going to be a hybrid book? A version compiled/written by Christopher Tolkien based on several of the drafts, with extracts of the drafts acting as a commentary or appendix? i.e perhaps it will be more the work of the son than father, but designed to act as a gateway to the Silmarillion/HOME proper, maybe C. Tolkien feels in the twilight of his years enough time has passed for him to think more about the future, rather than looking to the past and act as more of an author than editor, he has been quite vocal in his criticisms of the Jackson films maybe he feels this is the last chance to open up the First Age stories to a wider public, a novelization would no doubt be more appealing than an anthology with commentary...

New bits and pieces of writing by Tolkien have surfaced in frequently in recent years published in various places (though they are usually Letters or relatively minor notes or poems) so I suppose it's possible a lost manuscript of Beren and Luthein has resurfaced or been held back by the Estate deliberately but I too find it rather unlikely there is anything that substantial to be found in this volume, I'll probably buy a copy for convenience and the illustrations but it does seem a bit...barrel scrapey if you know what I mean...on the other hand, as I understand it there is still a substantial amount amount of unpublished writing (mostly relating to Tolkien's invented languages or academic writing) that could no doubt be compiled into a book or five, assuming they believed there was a market for it...

Perhaps they will do a Fall Of Gondolin book if this is successful...

Adam Tolkien did have involvement with COH (he did a few press interviews, and I think had some involvement with some of the non-english translations) but I can't recall him being credited as assisting with the more recent books (though it is of course possible that The Fall Of Arthur, Beowulf, Sigurd and Gudrun etc were essentially finished years before publication) and I have no idea if he has any direct involvement with the day to day business of the Tolkien Estate (unlike C.Tolkien's other son, Simon, I'm not sure if Adam Tolkien is even a practicing author), either way it will be interesting to see who, if anyone is appointed to suceed C.Tolkien in the event of his passing (may it be a good few years way yet).

(I'd always assumed Wayne G Hammond and Christina Scull would be the most likely candidates to take over, given their long experience of editing previous works by about about Tolkien, but the Tolkien family would probably prefer to keep things in the family)

True about there still being plenty of unpublished material, but I think that it's mostly stuff that is better suited for journal articles than books. There's been a fair bit of Tolkien's own writing published in, for example, Vinyar Tengwar and Tolkien Studies. Much of it highly technical and linguistic in nature, of course, but "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor", for example, touches on a great deal else and is about as accessible as the shorter pieces at the end of Unfinished Tales IMO (and it's the direct precursor to the account of Elendil's tomb from "Cirion and Eorl").

Hammond & Scull are great of course but I would expect the Estate and Trust to remain controlled by the family. I don't know if that's required by Tolkien's will or not but either way it makes sense to me, and I think Adam Tolkien is the most likely successor, though hopefully it won't come to that for several years still. There are of course numerous scholars who have collaborated and/or consulted with Christopher to varying degrees (Hammond & Scull among them) and I think and hope that the Estate would continue to make more material available.

Like Eldo, I would be very (very) surprised if Chistopher Tolkien has reversed his opinion and constructed a new version of Beren and Luthien, especially given how conservative he was with The Children of Hurin. And if more pages to the abandoned new start have actually been discovered, I would think the promotional blurbs would be all over that.

Among other things, I expect to see the never before published start to the long prose version, mentioned in The Lost Road And Other Writings, but I also expect than when it ends I'll have a similar reaction as when The Fall of Gondolin ended early in Unfinished Tales... some weeping and tearing of my Leto-beard, a splendid behorsing... then possibly a consoling cookie.

Perhaps the fallout with Milton Waldman over publishing The Lord of the Rings along with The Silmarilion was a blow at this point, although in any event, Tolkien had an arguably longish path before him if he wanted to get The Lord of the Rings ready for print, ultimately get the Appendices in order, finish the components of "The Silmarillion" in the larger sense, and the chapters to Quenta Silmarillion proper... plus rewrite/update the Great Tales in long prose... and maybe one or more in verse!

Of course I don't know how the time frame for all this was supposed to work out, but I wonder if Tolkien's Muse was planning on having him write during sleep.

After Eldo's reference to it I went and looked up a sample issue of the Vinyar Tengwar. Holy crap, it's likely reading the Oxford English Dictionary, but only the thick linguistically coded parts. The title of Lore Master is not lightly earned.

https://www.facebook.com/officialtolkien/

We are delighted to reveal this beautiful watercolour of Lúthien, the first of Alan Lee’s nine paintings specially commissioned for Beren and Lúthien, the brand new book by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by his son, Christopher.

A little dissapointed there's only nine new paintings (though I suppose Lee might have recycled some of his old artwork from previous commissions) though Children of Hurin also had several pencil illustrations for Chapter Heads and I'm assuming the same holds true here.

Probably reading too much into things, but the 'brand new' wording and the description on the Amazon page (kinda funny they link to Amazon rather than the official Harper Collins website or the official Tolkien bookstore-not complaining though, the cheaper price on Amazon will probably persuade more people to buy the book):

Painstakingly restored from Tolkien’s manuscripts and presented for the first time as a continuous and standalone story, the epic tale of Beren and Lúthien will reunite fans of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings with Elves and Men, Dwarves and Orcs and the rich landscape and creatures unique to Tolkien’s Middle-earth.

Do seem to imply this is going to be more of a stand alone novel than 'best of' compilation.

I'll eat my hat if it's a newly constructed, standalone story, like The Children of Hurin...

... although just in case, I'll be wearing a large pretzel hat.

Like Elthir, I have a hard time imagining Christopher reversing his previous position (and going against his general philosophy of editing in recent decades) to make another volume like The Children of Húrin. So if this turns out to be more of an anthology I'll be fairly disappointed with the publishers for misleading people. Though if it does turn out to be something more like COH I'm not entirely sure what I'll think since Christopher previously indicated that it would be impossible to produce such a volume without a great deal of original writing, and that's not what this book is being marketed as either.

Forget my pretzel post [and who wouldn't want to], rather...

... what Eldo said!

{{Thats a lot of salt.. ... in a pretzel hat I mean, unless you have a tiny head, but that doesn't seem right for a Lore Master, you should all have massive heads crammed full of Lore that makes you prone to absentmindedness and forgetting to put your trousers on whilst your minds are on higher things (like if Christopher is surprisingly going for a quick cash in before the grave) }}}

{{I think my long haired leto-bearded head, to keep a proper size, just keeps pushing out needless thoughts to make room for needful lore... needless sin asps! like the best way to open a stuck-lid pickle jar, for example... now I just smash the whole thing on the floor, which makes a mess, but I don't eat pickles anyway...

... pretzels, yes.}}

The 'look inside' feature on Amazon.com gives a preview to a few pages of the book-but only the preface, table of contents and appendix, in the preface Christopher Tolkien confirms

But this book does not offer a single page of original and unpublished work

Which isn't too surprising (if slightly disappointing), IIRCThe Children Of Hurin did contain a few previously unpublished portions of the story (and actually dropped a few parts that were included in the Narn i Hîn Húrin in Unfinished Tales) and Christopher Tolkien invented the odd new line or paragraph to stitch the story together in one narrative, so it seems somewhat unlikely this new book will contain one continuous narrative (though oddly the table of contents lists the Beren and Luthien part of the book as one continuous whole...)

I'll still get a copy regardless, it will be interesting to see how this seemingly H.O.M.E light approach is received by more casual fans, I'm also wondering if we will see any more repackaged stand alone volumes of Tolkien's work, perhaps a Numenor compilation or something...

That's ... disappointing, but not surprising. I guess I had hoped there would at least be a few snippets of new material, or perhaps even the QS II text that was mentioned in HoMe V but not fully included. But it would have been very surprising for the book to have been something radically different than this. Even so ... it was hard not to feel the temptation to get excited at the statement that the new collection would "reveal aspects of the story, both in event and in narrative immediacy, that were afterwards lost" (from the HarperCollins press release, but a very similar statement appears in the preface of the book). But it is clear from Christopher's elaboration on this point in the preface that this refers solely to new elements of the story being revealed to readers who were previously only familiar with the 1977 Silmarillion, not to material that had been withheld from HoMe or was only recently discovered.

In this way, also, there are brought to light passages of close description or dramatic immediacy that are lost in the summary, condensed manner characteristic of so much Silmarillion narrative writing; there are even to be discovered elements in the story that were later altogether lost. Thus, for example, the cross-examination of Beren and Felagund and their companions, disguised as Orcs, by Thû the Necromancer (the first appearance of Sauron), or the entry into the story of the appalling Tevildo, Prince of Cats, who clearly deserves to be remembered, short as was his literary life.

It doesn't really sound like there will be any more volumes edited by Christopher, though he could always change his mind:

In my ninety-third year this is (presumptively) my last book in the long series of editions of my father's writings, very largely previously unpublished, and is of a somewhat curious nature. This tale is chosen in memoriam because of its deeply-rooted presence in his own life, and his intense thought on the union of Lúthien, whom he called 'the greatest of the Eldar', and of Beren the mortal man, of their fates, and of their second lives.

It goes back a long way in my life, for it is my earliest actual recollection of some element in a story that was being told to me - not simply a remembered image of the scene of the storytelling. My father told it to me, or parts of it, speaking it without any writing, in the early 1930s.

The element in the story that I recall, in my mind's eye, is that of the eyes of the wolves as they appeared one by one in the darkness of the dungeon of Thû.

I can certainly understand why it was important to Christopher to highlight Beren and Lúthien one last time. Still shitty of the publishers to misrepresent the book in their marketing, though.

I'm surprised Christopher Tolkien hasn't retired already, editing/compiling such weighty volumes is no easy task (especially considering the age of the manuscripts, the sheer amount of variations found within, and Tolkien's at times impenetrable handwriting), but if this is his last work, ending on a Beren and Luthien volume seems very fitting, the real question is whether this will be the last 'new' Tolkien book overall, still holding out hope for a revised edition of the Letters some day...

I'll get a copy of this anyway as it will be a good reference point without all the HOME commentary and Alan Lee's illustrations are always a joy to behold.

I'm sure I'll flip through the book in the store, if only to see the Alan Lee paintings, but I no longer budget for Tolkien fandom-related expenses and this doesn't seem like the book to be the exception (especially since I'm doing multiple anime cons this year; those burn through cash real fast ).

Eldorion wrote:I'm sure I'll flip through the book in the store, if only to see the Alan Lee paintings, but I no longer budget for Tolkien fandom-related expenses and this doesn't seem like the book to be the exception (especially since I'm doing multiple anime cons this year; those burn through cash real fast ).

Fair enough (only ever been to two small, local cons myself, not really my thing, I'm a massive nerd but one that prefers to nerd out by myself...), speaking about Tolkien budgeting I'm still sorely tempted by the new edition of Hammond and Scull's Companion And Guide the first edition was an incredible resource that I still refer to constantly, but I picked that one up very cheaply...not sure I can justify spending £120 on the new edition....

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2017/02/beren-and-luthien-publication-delayed/

Sounds like I won't have to eat my hat... even though I will.

John Garth...

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2017/05/beren-and-l-thien-love-war-and-tolkien-s-lost-tales

{{So Ive got Book of Lost Tales with the Lay in it. And Ive got Unfinished Tales and the Sil- so is there any point in me getting this version, besides the handiness of having them all collected into one volume? My sporran demands answers!}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{So Ive got Book of Lost Tales with the Lay in it. And Ive got Unfinished Tales and the Sil- so is there any point in me getting this version, besides the handiness of having them all collected into one volume? My sporran demands answers!}}

Maybe if you like Alan Lee's paintings, enjoy Christopher Tolkien's commentaries or want a sturdy object to knock someone out with.

I'll probably buy a copy because I love the story and have most of the other books already, this is presumably the last major posthumous release (related to Middle Earth at least) of Tolkien's writings (though the same was said of Children Of Hurin...) so I'm gonna cherish it even if it essentially a HOME light reprint.

I like getting something in the mail. And when I get my copy I won't open it until I've forgotten what it is (this could take years, but it varies from person to person), and it's very exciting to open a mystery parcel!

If they can come up with something akin to what was done with Hurin, I'll buy it. Why not do a book-from-the-film thingee? Surely a movie screenplay could be knitted together... without Jackson involved, of course....

This is the clearest description of it I've seen:

http://www.npr.org/2017/05/31/529749053/beren-and-l-thien-reflects-tolkiens-real-life-love-story

It will have his earliest version, his poetry version (though whether it will match Aragorn's selection remains to be seen), and a longer prose version, all incomplete.