Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

by Bluebottle Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:24 am

Wouldn't people falling in love with the character be just what achieves the impact reading those scenes have?

I think George said somewhere that when one of his character is in a dangerous situation he wants you to feel affraid because they might not actually make it. And as for war, people do die. So one could argue it adds realism.

Is it hard on the reader? Yes, certainly. Though it has obviously been part of what has made these books resonate so strongly with people.

I would say they go even more in for creating that impact in the television series though.

by halfwise Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:00 pm

What's bad for the reader, Martin, reality etc is good for the book!

But if you don't want to feel the pain, don't fall in love - at least not in Martin's universe.

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:42 pm

what I dont get is, in Tolkien for example you travel with characters through thick and thin and the payoff is great at the end, but with Martins characters a lot of them are cut off before the end so there isnt that satisfying journey. I think thats why I didnt bother reading book 2, it was too unsatisfying realizing I could get to like a character and then poof! his head gets chopped off really early on. Plus you need to keep the great characters alive to make people want to find out what happens to them. I like good old fashioned and they all lived fairly happily and sail off into the sunset kind of story. If he kills Tyrion I will be pissed off.

by Lancebloke Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:15 pm

I think you can kill off a certain amount of the goodies otherwise you don't get that sense of peril... that maybe one of the ones you invest yourself in might die and therefore a bit of relief and satisfaction when they make it. I now feel like I have to invest myself all over again and that, actually, why bother since they are probably going to die anyway.

And the one character I want to bloody die just won't!!!!

by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:00 pm

is it Walder Frey by any chance? Suspect

by Lancebloke Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:37 am

Nope.

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:49 am

Interestingly George points out exactly Tolkien in interviews as an inspiiration when talking about the danger of his characters not surviving. Lord of the Rings has after all both the death of Boromir and Gandalf. And he talks about the emotional impact of the "fly you fools" moment. Though, as he likes to remark, if he was writing the story Gandalf would have stayed dead.

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:36 am

Spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:44 am

Bluebottle wrote:Interestingly George points out exactly Tolkien in interviews as an inspiiration when talking about the danger of his characters not surviving. Lord of the Rings has after all both the death of Boromir and Gandalf. And he talks about the emotional impact of the "fly you fools" moment. Though, as he likes to remark, if he was writing the story Gandalf would have stayed dead.

But LOTR doesnt have that casual violence GOT has. Boromir's death has a build up and its a noble end in battle. A lot of Martin's characters deaths are neither noble or have meaning, Its more like real life I suppose, Martin seems to put surprisingly little fantasy into his fantasy books. Its rich meaty stuff its more like reading a history of the Plantagenets or the Borgias.

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:45 am

He talks about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio&feature=youtu.be&t=35m39s

And it probably explains a bit why he felt like taking it further, as well. He also talks a bit about this thing of his of killing off his characters in general.

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:02 pm

I found some of the quotes from this amusing. Laughing

A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin has been dubbed “the American Tolkien,” but today he admitted that he didn’t think the Lord of the Rings author would appreciate his writing.

Hypable was in attendance when Martin spoke to a group of fans in Bath, where he addressed his much-referenced love for The Lord of the Rings, although he maintained that he felt Tolkien “cheated” by not following through with killing Gandalf and Frodo.

He said that his favourite character in the novels was Boromir and admitted that when he first read Fellowship of the Ring, the part with Tom Bombadil almost put him off the series for good.

Perhaps most interestingly, though, he addressed the comparisons between his work and that of Tolkien, saying, while he wasn’t sure what the author would think about Ice and Fire, had he been able to read it, Martin imagined that Tolkien would “be appalled."

http://www.hypable.com/2012/04/04/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-tolkien-would-be-appalled-at-my-work/

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:20 pm

I think Tolkien would be appalled by the 21st century in general.

by David H Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:32 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I think Tolkien would be appalled by the 21st century in general.

He'd not be alone.

by Tinuviel Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:36 pm

by Ringdrotten Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:55 pm

Bluebottle wrote:...and admitted that when he first read Fellowship of the Ring, the part with Tom Bombadil almost put him off the series for good.

Wait, what - the guy is a total dick! Shocked

But I forgive him, and only because I read another chapter with Arya today and

this was in it:

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:04 pm

Tinuviel wrote:

thats great. 'Lord Friendzone' Laughing

by Bluebottle Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:20 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:...and admitted that when he first read Fellowship of the Ring, the part with Tom Bombadil almost put him off the series for good.

Wait, what - the guy is a total dick!

I think he says these things slightly tounge in cheek. Like the Gandalf not coming back if he wrote it bit. But his opinions on Tolkiens work are certainly... interesting. Razz

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:21 pm

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:33 pm

by halfwise Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:35 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:...and admitted that when he first read Fellowship of the Ring, the part with Tom Bombadil almost put him off the series for good.

Wait, what - the guy is a total dick!

But I forgive him, and only because I read another chapter with Arya today and
this was in it:

To be honest, I've had problems with Bombadil myself. The section feels self-indulgent, confirmed by the fact that the only reason he's in there is Tolkien's daughter Priscilla asked for Bombadil to be put in, as he stars in a series of made-up stories Tolkien told his kids when they were very young. I accept it, but the interlude really sticks out as something totally apart from the rest of LoTR. A lot of people love that section, but it really isn't part of LoTR.

by Eldorion Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:50 pm

halfwise wrote:To be honest, I've had problems with Bombadil myself. The section feels self-indulgent, confirmed by the fact that the only reason he's in there is Tolkien's daughter Priscilla asked for Bombadil to be put in, as he stars in a series of made-up stories Tolkien told his kids when they were very young. I accept it, but the interlude really sticks out as something totally apart from the rest of LoTR. A lot of people love that section, but it really isn't part of LoTR.

I can't say I agree. Bombadil is certainly, well, bombastic. And his description and manner of speech stands out as very different from nearly everyone else we meet in LOTR. But the whole sequence with him includes some very creepy moments with Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights, and it represents an absolutely crucial section of all four Hobbits' character personal journeys as its their first step beyond the Shire and one of the first times they're in serious peril. PJ made it work by moving bits of character development elsewhere in the story, but insofar as the book is concerned it's very much a part of LOTR, even though Bombadil himself is jarring.

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:08 pm

thats my favorite bit. I think Tom is the epitome of Tolkien

by halfwise Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:16 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:

"Chaos isn't a pit, it's a ladder."

Not in the books, damn good line.

No idea what hero they are talking about, far as I recollect nobody rises above the fray. That would make the story too easy long before it's over.

by Ringdrotten Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:18 pm

That dick comment was a joke, in case somebody got the wrong idea Wink

I agree that Bombadil feels out of place in LotR, but that's one of the things I love about him. He's such a great, unpredictable and enigmatic character - The Oldest, "Tom Bombadil is", doesn't go invisible when wearing the ring. It's all so wonderfully mysterious Very Happy

by halfwise Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:23 pm

Eldorion wrote: ... insofar as the book is concerned [Bombadil] is very much a part of LOTR, even though Bombadil himself is jarring.

That's it exactly, Tolkien stuck him into the storyline, but he's jarring because he doesn't fit in with anything else. Everything else is connected except Tom. Tolkien could have done something that more elegantly meshed with everything else (just skipping Tom and going straight to the Barrow Wights would have worked), but even Treebeard never mentions him.

It's a delightful bit of Tolkien through and through, with some lines and images that really stick in the mind, but it's not LotR.