Questions for the Lore Masters.

{{ Not posted on this thread in ages- go read Eldy's piece above if you still havent- its excellent as youd expect.

Now, question for any Lore Masters hanging about their Tower- when Sauron had the Ring was he invisible when he put it on? }}

I'm not a lore master but gandalf did tell Frodo when discussing gollum that the ring conferred power according to it's owner's stature. In gollum's case it allowed him to become a thief and hearer of secrets. One would think the power of invisibility would not add to one who already had power (in fact it would conceal the power of leadership) so it wouldn't render invisible someone of great power. It did make Isilder invisible, however...

Hmm. As a false online loremaster, I can at least say this much: "this much" . . . there I said it.

Anyway, I never imagined Isildur groping around to find Sauron's "correct" finger (or any fingers). . . to cut off the One I mean.

{{Maybe Isildur got a lucky hit in and sauron was invisible- was aiming for where he thought Saurons head was, missed chooped his ring finger off, at which point he'd become visible and could be 'finished' off.
From what I recall Elendil and Gil-galad did Sauron in and Isuldur cut off the ring finger- but what I cant remember is in which order- was the Ring cut off during the battle or only after from the 'corpse'? And would he even have a corpse? }}

Well had to be a corpse, else what would the ring be cut from?

Good call about Isildur not fumbling around. And there seemed to be intent in taking the ring, not a "Oh, what have I got here? I seem to have cut off the ring! Egad, methinks I'll keep it."

I wonder if you lads are missing the point. It's not invisibility when what it really does is making you more visible to Sauron. It's not an invisibility ring, it's a ring that makes you think it's an invisibility ring. The Ring is a piece of Sauron wrapped around your finger. It makes you addicted to it's cool magic, makes you think you can use it's power and reach your goals. It keps you alive as long as you are useful. Humans are puny. A more powerful being would get a cooler trick. We don't see Galadriel rambling about how cool it would be to be invisible and catch fishies...

It's a bit like those creepy parasites that eat the host alive from the inside then make the host climb to the top of straws and such, so they can get eaten by birds and infect their intestines, and so keep the life circle of the parasites going...

thanks for that image, luv.

Sharing is caring.

Ah, but in any case, Galadriel's ring had no power to confer invisibility. Anyway, at least the thread is about Galadriel now.

And my opinion is that Gil-galad and Elendil fought with a visible Sauron, who ended up essentially dead (too battered to live in that body), and then Isildur with Galadriel (although I'm making this Galadriel part up) went to the body of Sauron and cut the One Ring Finger (later Gollum said Sauron had nine digits).

And I think it wasn't until Sauron's ring was taken that his spirit left his body, 'cause the spirit of a Maia could refuse Mandos (I would say, if Elvish spirits can), and was not allowed to leave Middle-earth/ Time upon bodily death.

It's all true that it's my opinion, based on.

"It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own."

FOTR

"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."

OTROPATTA

"Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows. "

L131(TW)

Letter 131 (to Waldman)

It's been ages since I've read the relevant chapters, but I have a random question about:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bucklebury_Ferry

The wiki says implies it was a single raft ferry left on one side of the river when not in use, should we assume trips were mostly one way or that a hobbit was employed as a ferryman? If say a hobbit decided to pop across the river and visit a relative and found the ferry was now on the other bank would he have to boat across or take a long detour over the brandywine bridge?

Maybe it was pulled over the river along a rope chain?

Am I just missing/misremembering something here?

I think it was a rope.

I've pictured something like this style of ferry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sho8GETs80&feature=emb_logo

{{ A thought occured to me when rereading the account of Gandalf at the Council of Elrond of his meeting with Saruman. Something that just doesn't seem to add up.

Why did Saruman first try to enlist Gandalf to his cause? I know he and Gandalf had a bit of a prickly relationship all along, but Saruman pretty much begins by accusing Gandalf of concealing information from the White Council, openly mocks Radagast as a fool and simpleton, and then appeals to Gandalf to join with Sauron as his victory is at hand and cant be stopped.
When Gandalf dismisses this as the sort of crap he'd expect out an emmissary of Mordor Saruman then changes tack to suggest that there could be a better way, if they had the Ruling Ring they could use its power together and control would pass to them.
Gandalf refuses this too, saying Saruman needn't bother saying 'we' as only one hand can weild the Ring at a time before adding-

"I would not give even news of it to you, now I learn your mind." (emphasis added)

Thing is though the message Radagast gave Gandalf in the first place, that brought him to Isengard was -

"And he (Saruman) told me to say that if you feel the need, he will help; but you must seek his aid at once, or it will be too late."

Now Gandalf tells the Council of Elrond in response to hearing this his heart was lifted, as Saruman had long studied the Enemy and it was thanks to his devices they had driven Sauron from Dol Guldur.
So Gandalf at this point not only trusts Sarumans motivations, he also is heartened to think Saruman might have come up with a plan. And of course Gandalf is the only one who knows who has the Ring, and where the Ring currently is. Information that would be vital to any plan to deal with Sauron. And information Saruman clearly suspects Gandalf has as he says-

"How long, I wonder, have you concealed from me, the head of the Council, a matter of greatest import?"

Which surely can only be a reference to the Ring.

So the question is why didn't Saruman just act friendly and say he was trying to concoct a plan to defeat Sauron with Gandalf's aid, keeping Gandalf onside long enough for Gandalf to tell him about the Ring and its whereabouts, which he surely would have, as it is he only doesnt tell him because now he knows Sarumans mind. But only because Saruman told him what was on his mind, and what he really was planning to do.

Why did Saruman do that? It doesn't seem Wise.
Gandalf was coming there with all the information Saruman needed and wanted, in complete trust. All Sauman had to do was act friendly long enough for Gandalf to tell him where the Ring was, then capture him in the tower.
And its not like Saruman was acting off the cuff, caught suprised by Gandalf's arrrival, he invited him. And when he gives his big speech Gandalf describes it as seeming rehearsed, so he'd thought about what he was going to say. But why?
Did Saruman really think Gandalf was just going to switch sides then and there and the two of them would pop off together to seize the Ring? Doubtful as he clearly had planned for what to do if Gandalf refused and if need to trap him there.
So why didnt Saruman just play along nice till Gandalf told him what he needed, afterall why wouldnt Gandalf tell the Head of his Order whom he still trusted when he arrrived? Then trap him and go get the Ring?

Anyone got any ideas about what was motivating Saruman, or why he tried this approach rather then the easier more obvious route to getting what he wanted. Afterall thats what Saruman brought Gandalf there for in the first place, as he says when he imprisons Gandalf he is there-

"Until you reveal to me where the One may be found."

Yet his entire approach seems destined to not get that result. Especially as Gandalf would almost certainly just have told him what he wanted to know freely, had he not realised what Saruman was up to.   }}

Getting information about the ring was actually secondary to Saruman's main purpose of recruiting Gandalf. He knew he couldn't stand against Sauron alone, even if he had the ring. After reacting to Gandalf's comment about breaking white light he says: "I did not bring you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice." After which he gives his prepared speech.

Saruman didn't know that Gandalf knew where the ring was, only suspected it. His need to recruit him was uppermost in his mind, and if he had Gandalf's cooperation then he'd also get the information. I think Saruman was too proud to play games with someone like Gandalf - too close to lying, which is something you do with an inferior.

' His need to recruit him was uppermost in his mind, and if he had Gandalf's cooperation then he'd also get the information'- Halfy

{{ He doesnt try to recruit him as such at first, he advises that Sauron cant be beaten and says they should therefore join with him. Its only when Gandalf rejects that idea does Saruman switch tact onto a better way- to recruit him into controlling the Ring themselves.
Whereas if he'd just shut up about his plans and joining with Sauron Gandalf would have freely volunteered the information he was after.
And he says his only purpose in bringing Gandalf there was to keep him there, before he even reveals himself as Saruman of Many Colours-

"For you have come, and that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay.."

Far as I can tell his plan is threaten Gandlaf with imprisonment right from the off, then offer the alternative of joining with Sauron on the basis they will find ways to control the power behind the scenes eventually -

'...and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses.."

when Gandalf rejects this too Saruman seems to have expected it-

"I did not expect you to show wisdom, even in your own behalf..."

Then he says Gandalf will be trapped there until he reveals where the Ring is, indicitaing Saruman thinks Gandalf does know where it is.

And its that last bit is the issue for me, if he really did think Gandalf knew where the Ring was, and he didnt really expect Gandalf to go along with his plans, wouldnt it have been better to not have revealed his true plans right off the bat, and let Gandalf reveal what he knew first?


"I think Saruman was too proud to play games with someone like Gandalf- too close to lying"- Halfy

He has been playing games with Gandalf for years, since at least before the WC meeting that decided to drive Sauron out Dol Guldur, as in UT (I think) we learn that his real reason for doing that was so he could freely search the Gladden and the Anduin close to Mirkwood where he thought the Ring might have been lost. And his opening bid- to join with Sauon- is also not his real goal, which is more a backup plan it seems. Really he wants to take the Ring for himself (after the war when they open up Isengard they even discover his hidden room bit where he was going to keep the Ring). He's been lying to Gandalf for decades by this point, so I dont think its that. }}

I found this question and answer on Quora to be particularly good.

If Aragorn had kept the Army of the Dead, would any force in Middle-Earth have been able to stand against it?

This depends on whether we’re talking about the book or the film.

In the film the answer would appear to be yes, and a lot of people wouldn’t have been killed if he’d got to Minas Tirith sooner with it. However, this was one of Peter Jackson’s changes to Tolkien’s story that didn’t really work, except to show what CGI could do in 2001. In the book what went on was much cleverer, and far more believable.

In the book the raiding of the Corsairs had kept two thirds of Out Companies – what we would call the regional forces – of Gondor at home so they could protect the coastline from raids by the Corsairs. We don’t know how many Corsairs there were, but there might not have been all that many. The point was that their mobility allowed them to tie down significant numbers of the enemy. Tolkien wasn’t a sailor, but he was a soldier from a nation that had long used the mobility of naval forces to compensate for the small size of its army. He knew his stuff.

In the book it’s clear the Army of Ghosts are just that: ghosts. They have no power to actually harm anyone. Sailors are generally a superstitious lot, and the Corsairs seem to be no exception. The effect of the ghosts on them was purely psychological.


Once the Corsairs had jumped ship - literally - Aragorn then uses the mobility of their vessels to turn the tables on Sauron. The force that lands at Minas Tirith consists of the missing Out Companies, Aragorn and his almost equally tough Ranger buddies, and Elrond’s super powered sons. This was not a large force compared to what Mordor had deployed, but its arrival was a complete surprise. As they appeared on the flank and rear, and thus were able to attack troops that were in the second line and who presumably were not Sauron’s best. This second surprise, coming after the unexpected appearance of the Riders of Rohan on the other flank, destroyed what was left of the morale of the Witch King’s army.

So to answer the question, in the book the answer is no. The Army of Ghosts’s contribution to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was that they facilitated Aragorn’s amphibious landing on the Witch King’s flank. They could frighten Corsairs and, possibly, Haradrim, but would have no effect on the Orcs who were what Sauron mostly had left after Minas Tirith. Additionally, their appearance mainly benefitted from surprise, which wasn’t going to happen twice.

EDIT It’s been pointed out that Tolkien doesn’t say the Oathbreakers (as we should really call them) can’t physiclly hurt the living, and other supernatural foes like Wights can. However, I think we can see that Tolkien’s inspiration here is slightly different to the Wights and is the Wild Hunt and other ghostly hordes of mythology. These are not usually presented as physical threats. They are frightening and people could be carried away and die of exhaustion, but they are a psychological, rather than physical, danger.

{{ I've always been under the impression the 'Army of the Dead'' used purely fear. I see them as something unnayural that the rational mind just cant cope with unless its under very strong control. Aragorn and co manage to control their fears, some better than others. Legolas seems largely uneffected as Elves maybe are more used to seeing unseen worlds, Gimli has a hell of time keeping his fear under control and with Aragorn its pure steely determination and a sens eof self right. But the people of Erech flee and hide at the mere rumour of their coming, calling Aragorn the King of the Dead. And the mariners of the Corsairs are filled with madness and despair and mainly drown themselves- if memory serves the rowers are only spared the same fate due to being chained to the oars.
One could argue therefore had they goneot the Pelennor their fear would have been just as effective against the Haradrim and easterilings and Dunlendings, but its doubtful it would work on orcs and trolls and the like.
Though I dont think Tolkien says or even implies it directly its also usual for 'ghosts' in folk lore to be tied to geographical areas in which their powers are strongest, and further they are fomr there weaker they become. Its possible therefore their reach did not extend far beyond the coast near Erech. Aragorn for example doesnt even consider the possibility of taking them further, or using them for anyting else than seizing the ships, before considering their oath to fight fulfilled and releasing them.
But then you could argue had Aragonr kept hold of them and refused to release them and used them to fight his battles for him, would that make him better than Sauron using slaves and others tricked or trapped into his service?}}

The idea that ghosts are tied to location is a good one. They probably wouldn't have followed Aragorn to Minas Tirith.

{{ Its a pity we dont know more about what Isildur expected of them, all we know is they pledged allegiance then refused at the last minute to join the Last Alliance. Now that Alliance ended up beseiging Mordor for years on end, but we dont know what part the men of Dunharrow were to play in that. I don't think its unreasonable to think that they were never meant to march on Mordor with the rest, but to protect the rear of Gondor, ensuring ships and reinforcements did not come up the river and lay waste to Gondor and come on the Alliance form the rear. If so then that woud make sense of the task Aragorn sets them and why he considers their oath fulfilled having done what they originally refused to do. Pure speculationon my part unless there is some info a Lore Master knows that sheds more light on the matter I've missed.}}

I think you are right Petty. I see Aragorn as using a pure force of will to control a ghostly force, no other human or living creature could have borne it, and it must have exhausted him to the point where he just couldn't bear the burden any longer. It would have started to tire him physically and mentally, and Aragorn needed to save his strength for larger foes.

I didn't get the impression Aragorn was under any strain to control them - he knew he had the birthright and was bold enough to use it.  But it was a day's travel by ship to Minas Tirith, and managing the dead and their influence along the way certainly would have been a strain once he had several ship's crew to deal with.  Up to that point it was just him and his companions, who totally knew what the dead were all about and could deal with it.

{{ I think with Aragorn he just has an absolute certainty and lack of any doubt whatsoever about his right to claim the title of King and to rule. All his doubts in the book come about over the means to doing so. He's at one such dilemna at the Paths of the Dead right before the Grey Company show up relating the words of the Seer pertaining to the Paths of the Dead. Soon as he sees the route he has to take he takes it without flinching. The other Rangers follow I think and quell their own fears solely through loyalty and the unwavering personality and determination of Aragorn- they will literally follow him into Hell if need be (slightly more interestingly this also seems to work on the horses) Elronds sons, like Legolas simply dont seem that bothered by the unseen world, so I am putting that down to being an elvish thing.
Gimli on the otherhand is terrified throughout and is effectively the audience in the group- sensing the dead growing and following behind them, always waiting for and expecting a cold dead hand to reach out and take him. In this instance Gimli is more the 'normal person' response to the Dead, he barely keeps his fear in check and its more a determination and his personality, not be shown up by the others or to be cowardly that keeps him going. And its questionable how long he could have kept going in such deadly company before going mad himself.
And this seems to be very much the reaction the people of Erech and the mariners have to the Dead. They are fundementally unnatural, and Tolkiens view seems to be that the human mind (or dwarvish) confronted with something so unnatural simply recoils in horror insticintively and falls into fear and terror. Taking a very strong mind and control over the self to counter.}}

{{ Heres a question. Tolkien revised The Hobbit, and let that revision stand, forgiving his abandoned attempt to alter it. So we have to assume there is nothing in TH which Tolkien felt was so far out of kilter with Lord of the Rings that it had to go, as the few bits he did feel that about he rewrote.
So, when Bilbo first recalls his childhood memories of Gandalf, among magic studs and fireworks he says, "Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores."

Its that last bit, the rest I can see folklore and gossip exaggerating, but that last one is quiet precise- but what ships, and what lands did they sail to? It cant possibly be the Undying Lands, or even in sight of them, so what did Bilbo mean?

The other thing is not so much a Lore question as something I knew but hadnt really factored in, about Dale and Erebor. It had vast wealth, gold and jewels we are told were found there- but that's not what it was known for. They made toys. And that seems to have been the primary manufacturing and product of Erebor. Thorin in fact says first and as more importantly that they built workshops and halls upon first colonising the Mountain, before adding almost as an afterthought- "and in addition I believe they found a good deal of gold and a great many jewels too." Clearly the workshops were more important. And they seem to have mainly made toys in them, to such a degree that we are told that, "the toy markert of Dale was the wonder of the north." So Dale's claim to fame was as a place to buy your toys. ME Toys 'r us. Not so much the dwarves going to reclaim their long forgotten gold, so much as their long forgotten toys.
Now you could dismiss this as being a bit of Hobbit whimsy, but in Fellowship at Bilbos party a good deal of what the dwarves sent to it are toys- "there were toys the like of which they had never seen before.....many of them had indeed been ordered a year before, and had come all the way from the Mountain and from Dale, and were of real dwarf-make." Which tells us that even after they retook the mountain, they went right back to being toy makers first and foremost. Erebor seems in fact to have been basically a great big toy factory.
It just seems if not odd, then quite interesting that Erebor is a place of toymakers, famed as such, and who presumably in ther heyday exported toys through Dale across ME.
I wonder if in his bed of gold and jewels Smaug had a toy collection too?
Oh on the subject of Smaug and gold there is another curious line, again from Thorin when discussing dragons in general- "...they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value."
How and why? How in his mountain would Smaug keep up with 'current' market values for gold, and why would he care? He uses it as a bed, not like he is trading in the stuff, doubt he settles on his hoard with a copy of the ME Financial Times of a night.}}

Just because Dale is known for toys doesn't mean that's the only thing it's known for.   I'd call them craftsmen of all sorts - but you wouldn't send expensive jewels or art out as party favors.  You'd send something cheap and easy to produce, like toys.

I think you have to ask why a dragon wants gold and jewels.  It's not for the intrinsic beauty - it's as a trophy of domination.  Market value is therefore of interest.   Markets were less volatile in the time of dragons: eating your way through towns and comparing the goods in places with lots of gold versus little gold would give some estimate of what the gold is worth.  Dragons are very intelligent and knowing the worth of the gold being slept on would be uppermost in their minds as they inspect the spoils.

I think Tolkien was making a gentle joke, I don't think he was serious when he said Dragons were interested in the market, I think he was saying something that he knew would amuse the Edwardian gentleman. Kind of an in-joke for the mums and dads.