Questions for the Lore Masters.
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Yes but is it a dark grey shadow? A light grey shadow? A moonlit grey shadow? So many imponderables and so few answers!
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Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I found that quote here. And I like the picture of the grey horse jumping but I couldn't get it over here somehow.
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=162412
Please note that no one named Elthir had posted in that (now closed) thread. Too bad... but I just started one up at another site!
You can run but you cannot hide!
Well actually you can hide.
Never mind then.
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=162412
Please note that no one named Elthir had posted in that (now closed) thread. Too bad... but I just started one up at another site!
You can run but you cannot hide!
Well actually you can hide.
Never mind then.
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I probably should know this... but what happens to Dwarfs when they die?
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Elthir I think we should change your custom title to "King of the Grey Hall".
Edit: oh god, reading through that thread you posted. So many names I recognize.
Edit: oh god, reading through that thread you posted. So many names I recognize.
Last edited by Eldorion on Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Lance ... IIRC it's left vague (at least in the published Silmarillion but the dwarves believed they went to Mahal's halls and would one day be resurrected to help rebuild Arda. But that myth makes reference to the Dagor Dagorath, which Tolkien may or may not have abandoned the idea of, so I'm not sure. I don't have my HoME volumes to peruse right now, but Tolkien might have reconsidered the idea later in his life. I'll try to remember to take a look when I have the chance later today or tomorrow.
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
While Eldo researches his part I'll comment on the matter of reincarnation and Dwarves...
The second version is briefer, and on the question of the 'rebirth' of the Fathers the text says only: '... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin -- is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.'
note 21: 'That the Elves ever came to know so much (though only at a time when the vigour of both their races was declining) is thought to be due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Indeed most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.
note 24: 'The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished).'
note 25: '[A note at the end of the text without indication of its insertion reads:] 'What effect would this have on succession? Probably this 'return' would only occur when by some change or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often.'
This is late writing. I think it connects to Tolkien's revision of how Elvish bodies must be linked to specific spirits, instead of the same spirit returning to a new body, which would happen with actual rebirth.
Over to Eldo.
Thanks,
Mr. Greyhall
The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this priviledge that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body, (note24) at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again.
JRRT, The Peoples of Middle-Earth
The second version is briefer, and on the question of the 'rebirth' of the Fathers the text says only: '... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin -- is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.'
note 21: 'That the Elves ever came to know so much (though only at a time when the vigour of both their races was declining) is thought to be due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Indeed most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.
note 24: 'The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished).'
note 25: '[A note at the end of the text without indication of its insertion reads:] 'What effect would this have on succession? Probably this 'return' would only occur when by some change or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often.'
This is late writing. I think it connects to Tolkien's revision of how Elvish bodies must be linked to specific spirits, instead of the same spirit returning to a new body, which would happen with actual rebirth.
Over to Eldo.
Thanks,
Mr. Greyhall
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Unfortunately, the "Last Writings" chapter that Elthir quoted was what I was most interested in re-reading in The Peoples of Middle-earth. I didn't have a lot of time to poke around in other volumes, but I found the quote that my previous post was based on. It was actually in The War of the Jewels, but it appears identical to the statement about Dwarvish beliefs found in The Silmarillion, "Of Aule and Yavanna".
And now I'm really running late... :/
And now I'm really running late... :/
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
If you mean the War of the Last Alliance -- the one that ended with Sauron's defeat and Isildur taking the Ring -- then no. The Wizards didn't come to Middle-earth until a thousand years into the Third Age. The War of the Last Alliance took place at the end of the Second Age. However, it was preceded by another conflict almost 2000 years earlier: the War of the Elves and Sauron. This one took place after the Elves realized that the whole Ring thing was a trick, leading Sauron to start a War to capture the Rings and re-distribute them to Dwarves and Men. The prologue in the movie version of The Fellowship of the Ring sort of combines these two conflicts, as well as condensing and simplifying several other elements of the lore. For example, the movie implies that the original makers of the Great Rings intended for them to be given to each of the main races of the free peoples, whereas in the books, the Elven-smiths in Eregion didn't intend to share them with anyone, and it was Sauron who gave Rings to men and dwarves after he captured sixteen of them in the war. I should note the Longbeard Dwarves maintained that their ring (the one held by Thror and Thrain) was given to them by the elves, there's no corroborating evidence for this.
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
This isn't 100% in line with the topic of the thread, but I sort of accidentally wrote 3000 words about Imrazôr the Númenórean (forefather of the Princes of Dol Amroth) last night, and am curious to get feedback on it from anyone who might be interested. It ended up being about a lot more than just Imrazôr himself, touching on elements of early Gondorian history and some linguistic stuff as well.
http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread.php?78706-Imraz%F4r-the-N%FAmen%F3rean-what-gives
http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread.php?78706-Imraz%F4r-the-N%FAmen%F3rean-what-gives
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
'I sort of accidentally wrote 3000 words about Imrazôr the Númenórean'- Eldo
{{Only Lore Masters could ever write such a statement!- I look forward to a read of it Eldo first opportunity I get. }}}
{{Only Lore Masters could ever write such a statement!- I look forward to a read of it Eldo first opportunity I get. }}}
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A Green And Pleasant Land
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*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Very nicely written! And impressive in the number of disparate references it brings together. I also like the care taken to orient more casual Tolkien readers.
One thing that I didn't get, and perhaps I should be embarrassed by my lack of lore, is the statement near the end that Mithrellas used the Silvan rather than the Sindaran language. I thought they were the same?
One thing that I didn't get, and perhaps I should be embarrassed by my lack of lore, is the statement near the end that Mithrellas used the Silvan rather than the Sindaran language. I thought they were the same?
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halfwise- Quintessence of Burrahobbitry
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I haven't read Eldo's full post yet (looks awesome, and nicely lore-mastery-longish), but since I've wrangled with the Silvan question before: in general the Silvan tongues are different from the Sindarin brought back east by the Sindar and Noldor (the Sindarin of the Exiles of Imladris might reveal some Quenya influence too, for example).
That said, Tolkien sort of confused the matter of who was using what tongue in the Silvan Realms in the Third Age (one could simply invoke the last known word on the subject concerning Mirkwood, but even there we can only guess due to some dating ambiguities), and the question includes just what is considered an Eldarin tongue, and what is not.
To skip some finer details, Tolkien decided (for the Second Edition) that in Lorien Sindarin was spoken with a Silvan accent (also, the Sindarin name Laegolas was pronounced Legolas due to a Silvan accent, still leaving the larger scenario of Mirkwood aside for the moment), despite that JRRT did not revise the implication that Lorien was peopled by mostly Silvan Elves, who are East-elves, about whom it was said (Appendix F): "... but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form."
Which seems a rather odd way to put things, if generally speaking Sindarin is an Eldarin tongue (as it is)... but anyway...
That said, Tolkien sort of confused the matter of who was using what tongue in the Silvan Realms in the Third Age (one could simply invoke the last known word on the subject concerning Mirkwood, but even there we can only guess due to some dating ambiguities), and the question includes just what is considered an Eldarin tongue, and what is not.
To skip some finer details, Tolkien decided (for the Second Edition) that in Lorien Sindarin was spoken with a Silvan accent (also, the Sindarin name Laegolas was pronounced Legolas due to a Silvan accent, still leaving the larger scenario of Mirkwood aside for the moment), despite that JRRT did not revise the implication that Lorien was peopled by mostly Silvan Elves, who are East-elves, about whom it was said (Appendix F): "... but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form."
Which seems a rather odd way to put things, if generally speaking Sindarin is an Eldarin tongue (as it is)... but anyway...
"Actually the matter of the elvish tongue of the "Silvan folk" is rather confused in the L. R."
JRRT, Words Phrases And Passages (written between the first edition and the second, revised edition).
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
@Petty, thanks! It's the same thing that happens here all the time. I want to write a brief response to something and before I know it turns into a full-fledged essay. Although not usually with quite this number of citations...
@Halfy, thanks a bunch! I tried to go out of my way to explain the basics of stuff before jumping into all the HoME references and speculation. Glad to hear that that seems to have been successful. Regarding the Sindarin/Silvan thing, here is the full quote from UT that I was referring to:
The Silvan Elves are kind of a weird category, and they don't fit neatly into the chart of the Sundering of the Elves that can be found in The Silmarillion. Etymologically, their name is just another way of saying "Wood-elves", which is of course what they're referred to in The Hobbit, where they first appear. In The Silmarillion it's established that they were originally the descendants of the Nandor, the group of Teleri who abandoned the Great Journey before crossing the Misty Mountains. Some of these Elves eventually made it to East Beleriand and became the Laiquendi of Ossiriand, but many stayed in the Vales of Anduin, living in even more disparate and disorganized communities than the Laiquendi. However, in the Second Age, a number of Sindarin adventurers (and likely nobles) travelled east, took over the Nandorin realms, and introduced the Sindarin language and certain customs. This is referred to in LOTR Appendix B but most of the details come from "Galadriel and Celeborn", which is notoriously inconsistent and hard to fit into clear "canon" labels. However, there were probably also some Noldor who settled in Lorien (in addition to Galadriel herself) and they would have brought their linguistic influence as well.
"Galadriel and Celeborn" has an appendix about the languages of the Silvan Elves which agrees with the comments in Appendix F that Elthir referred to. I'm not entirely sure what Elthir meant by saying that it was an odd way to put things. My interpretation of the Appendix F comment (which I believe is fully consistent with the more detailed one in "Galadriel and Celeborn", though in any event as the latest version published by Tolkien himself it should take precedence IMO) is that the original, First Age language of the Silvan Elves is the one that "do[es] not appear in this history", since the Silvan Elves of the Third Age (many of whom were descended from multiple different First Age divisions of the Elves), spoke a version of Sindarin, which was (as Elthir mentions) one of the Eldarin languages.
The linguistic appendix to "Galadriel and Celeborn" goes on to say:
So with all this in mind, I think that the first quote about Nimrodel must be interpreted as "she would speak only the [original] Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lórien". This implies to me that Nimrodel was born in the First Age and had resisted all of the linguistic changes that occurred among the Silvan Elves since the ruin of Beleriand and the arrival of Eldarin (primarily but not entirely Sindarin) settlers.
The relevance of this tangent to my original essay is that I would imagine Mithrellas, as (probably) an attendant or servant of Nimrodel, would have spoken the same language as her. So I would not think that Mithrellas would be keen on giving her children Sindarin names. Therefore, I believe that Galador and Gilmith (Imrazôr's and Mithrellas' children) received the names they did because Sindarin was in common use among the Dúnedain. This is kinda contrary to my hypothesis that Imrazôr had an Adûnaic name because the Adûnaic was in more common usage in Belfalas, though not conclusive, and at the end of the day both lines of thought are speculation. I think there is some circumstantial evidence for my initial thought but I certainly wouldn't call it anything more than a possibility.
@Halfy, thanks a bunch! I tried to go out of my way to explain the basics of stuff before jumping into all the HoME references and speculation. Glad to hear that that seems to have been successful. Regarding the Sindarin/Silvan thing, here is the full quote from UT that I was referring to:
UT, Galadriel and Celeborn wrote:Amroth was King of Lórien, after his father Amdír was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad [in the year 3434 of the Second Age]. His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in the tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel. For long years he had loved her, and taken no wife, since she would not wed with him. She loved him indeed, for he was beautiful even for one of the Eldar, and valiant and wise; but she was of the Silvan Elves, and regretted the incoming of the Elves from the West, who (as she said) brought wars and destroyed the peace of old. She would speak only the Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lórien; and she dwelt alone beside the falls of the river Nimrodel to which she gave her name.
The Silvan Elves are kind of a weird category, and they don't fit neatly into the chart of the Sundering of the Elves that can be found in The Silmarillion. Etymologically, their name is just another way of saying "Wood-elves", which is of course what they're referred to in The Hobbit, where they first appear. In The Silmarillion it's established that they were originally the descendants of the Nandor, the group of Teleri who abandoned the Great Journey before crossing the Misty Mountains. Some of these Elves eventually made it to East Beleriand and became the Laiquendi of Ossiriand, but many stayed in the Vales of Anduin, living in even more disparate and disorganized communities than the Laiquendi. However, in the Second Age, a number of Sindarin adventurers (and likely nobles) travelled east, took over the Nandorin realms, and introduced the Sindarin language and certain customs. This is referred to in LOTR Appendix B but most of the details come from "Galadriel and Celeborn", which is notoriously inconsistent and hard to fit into clear "canon" labels. However, there were probably also some Noldor who settled in Lorien (in addition to Galadriel herself) and they would have brought their linguistic influence as well.
"Galadriel and Celeborn" has an appendix about the languages of the Silvan Elves which agrees with the comments in Appendix F that Elthir referred to. I'm not entirely sure what Elthir meant by saying that it was an odd way to put things. My interpretation of the Appendix F comment (which I believe is fully consistent with the more detailed one in "Galadriel and Celeborn", though in any event as the latest version published by Tolkien himself it should take precedence IMO) is that the original, First Age language of the Silvan Elves is the one that "do[es] not appear in this history", since the Silvan Elves of the Third Age (many of whom were descended from multiple different First Age divisions of the Elves), spoke a version of Sindarin, which was (as Elthir mentions) one of the Eldarin languages.
The linguistic appendix to "Galadriel and Celeborn" goes on to say:
UT, Galadriel and Celeborn wrote:Although the dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long separated kindred, had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study was needed to reveal their kinship as Eldarin tongues. Though the comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech greatly interested the loremasters, especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish. The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could. By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons and places.
So with all this in mind, I think that the first quote about Nimrodel must be interpreted as "she would speak only the [original] Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lórien". This implies to me that Nimrodel was born in the First Age and had resisted all of the linguistic changes that occurred among the Silvan Elves since the ruin of Beleriand and the arrival of Eldarin (primarily but not entirely Sindarin) settlers.
The relevance of this tangent to my original essay is that I would imagine Mithrellas, as (probably) an attendant or servant of Nimrodel, would have spoken the same language as her. So I would not think that Mithrellas would be keen on giving her children Sindarin names. Therefore, I believe that Galador and Gilmith (Imrazôr's and Mithrellas' children) received the names they did because Sindarin was in common use among the Dúnedain. This is kinda contrary to my hypothesis that Imrazôr had an Adûnaic name because the Adûnaic was in more common usage in Belfalas, though not conclusive, and at the end of the day both lines of thought are speculation. I think there is some circumstantial evidence for my initial thought but I certainly wouldn't call it anything more than a possibility.
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
It never ceases to impress me how you memorize everything Eldo/Elthir, I've read almost all of Tolkien's books at least a couple of times, but more often than not 90% of the detail is lost to me before my next re-read...keeps things fresh I suppose...
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The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
{{{Don't tell anyone, but my dirty little secret is that I've only read LOTR from cover-to-cover one time, the first time, back when I was nine. Plenty of re-reads in chunks, though.}}}
Don't get me wrong, though. I think I have a fairly good memory for roughly where certain things are in the books, but I spent a lot of time reading through various sections of LOTR, UT, and The Peoples of Middle-earth to assemble all of my citations for the essay. I refer to Tolkien encyclopedias at times too, to refresh my memory, though those are only helpful if they include detailed enough citations that I can go back and re-read the source in its original context.
{{{Searchable e-books are useful too if you're able to remember what book to check and roughly the right search terms. I rely on the indexes in my physical books at least as much, but e-books are a little quicker.}}}
In any event, thank you Malick!
Don't get me wrong, though. I think I have a fairly good memory for roughly where certain things are in the books, but I spent a lot of time reading through various sections of LOTR, UT, and The Peoples of Middle-earth to assemble all of my citations for the essay. I refer to Tolkien encyclopedias at times too, to refresh my memory, though those are only helpful if they include detailed enough citations that I can go back and re-read the source in its original context.
{{{Searchable e-books are useful too if you're able to remember what book to check and roughly the right search terms. I rely on the indexes in my physical books at least as much, but e-books are a little quicker.}}}
In any event, thank you Malick!
Last edited by Eldorion on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I wanted to add an addendum clarifying my comment where I (maybe?) disagreed with Elthir about Appendix F, just to cover my ass. Here's the full quote:
This passage has a footnote at the end of it, which reads:
The second sentence in the footnote refers back to the chapter "Lothlórien" in FOTR, where Frodo thinks that "the speech that the Silvan folk east of the mountains used among themselves was unlike that of the West." This line in the chapter has a footnote of its own referring the reader to Appendix F, clarifying that in the late Third Age the Silvan Elves did in fact speak a version of Sindarin. Even without this context, I believe it is clear that the phrase "in this period" in the Appendix F footnote refers to the Third Age, since it is following on from the phrase "in this history" (ie, LOTR itself, the history of the War of the Ring).
However, the initial passage in Appendix F is not speaking about the late Third Age, but rather the linguistic situation "far back in the Elder Days". The note at the beginning of Appendix B (The Tale of Years) makes it clear that the phrase "Elder Days" properly refers only to the First Age (although people in the Fourth Age sometimes used the phrase to refer to the first three Ages collectively). Thus, I think the Silvan language noted as "not appearing in this history" is specifically the original First Age language that was later displaced by Sindarin.
To use a real world analogy, it would be like someone writing a book about Scotland and saying "Scottish Gaelic does not appear in this story" while still using Scots. They could still have foreign characters not be able to understand it without changing the fact that Scots is a variant of English rather than Gaelic. The Nimrodel analogue in this case would be someone from Na h-Eileanan Siar who might exclusively speak Gaelic, in which case even most Scottish people aren't going to be able to understand them.
I dunno if anyone else considers this clarifying or not.
LOTR, Appendix F wrote:The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar), and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the Elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.
This passage has a footnote at the end of it, which reads:
In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in The Thain's Book by a commentator of Gondor). All the Elvish words cited in Book Two chs 6, 7, 8 [the Lórien chapters of FOTR] are in fact Sindarin, and so are most of the names of places and persons. But Lórien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.
The second sentence in the footnote refers back to the chapter "Lothlórien" in FOTR, where Frodo thinks that "the speech that the Silvan folk east of the mountains used among themselves was unlike that of the West." This line in the chapter has a footnote of its own referring the reader to Appendix F, clarifying that in the late Third Age the Silvan Elves did in fact speak a version of Sindarin. Even without this context, I believe it is clear that the phrase "in this period" in the Appendix F footnote refers to the Third Age, since it is following on from the phrase "in this history" (ie, LOTR itself, the history of the War of the Ring).
However, the initial passage in Appendix F is not speaking about the late Third Age, but rather the linguistic situation "far back in the Elder Days". The note at the beginning of Appendix B (The Tale of Years) makes it clear that the phrase "Elder Days" properly refers only to the First Age (although people in the Fourth Age sometimes used the phrase to refer to the first three Ages collectively). Thus, I think the Silvan language noted as "not appearing in this history" is specifically the original First Age language that was later displaced by Sindarin.
To use a real world analogy, it would be like someone writing a book about Scotland and saying "Scottish Gaelic does not appear in this story" while still using Scots. They could still have foreign characters not be able to understand it without changing the fact that Scots is a variant of English rather than Gaelic. The Nimrodel analogue in this case would be someone from Na h-Eileanan Siar who might exclusively speak Gaelic, in which case even most Scottish people aren't going to be able to understand them.
I dunno if anyone else considers this clarifying or not.
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I don't think we disagree Eldo, I just think Tolkien could have been clearer in Appendix F. We are dealing with groups of languages (Eldarin and not Eldarin), and while the split between the West-elves and the East-elves was in the Elder Days, when Tolkien refers to the realms of Mirkwood and Lorien, and the languages (plural) of this history, then one "might" assume that the Lorien Elves the reader has already met in this history are in play...
... then the footnote added to the second edition basically says that the only language they speak in this history is in fact Eldarin. No doubt I'm splitting hairs as to what I think could have been clearer, and actually I think your: "Thus, I think the Silvan language noted as "not appearing in this history" is specifically the original First Age language that was later displaced by Sindarin" is better, as Tolkien himself does not directly say the "Silvan" languages of earlier days do not appear in the history, but more simply the languages of the East-elves -- of course your interpretation is sensible and can be constructed from what is said, I just think Tolkien could have said it more clearly by adjusting a word or two in the original Appendix F description, when he added the footnote.
And actually, I suspect at least, that the original meaning of Appendix F could have been that the languages of the East-elves do not appear in this history because even the Elves of Lorien (met by the reader) were speaking a non-Eldarin tongue (not Sindarin). This explans not only Frodo's confusion, but why even Aragorn -- or so it appears anyway -- cannot understand the songs the Elves create for the fallen Mithrandir.
I we look at the draft Appendices for Appendix F we can see that the old abandond conception is at first still in play. In these versions the Noldor still speak "Noldorin" (which was, externally, really an earlier form of Sindarin!) and some of the Elves of Middle-earth speak "Lemberin" or Telerian -- so I'll skip to the first draft version that illustrates the updated scenario (the Noldor bring Quenya with them to Middle-earth and adopt Sindarin). This is the draft F4, which includes...
And in The Tale of Years, draft, T4: "... Remants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) established realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these people are Avari or East-elves."
I think there is at least the arguable suggestion that the Silvan Elves were considered, at one point or another, Avarin. That said even these quotes are not necessarily a slam dunk, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are hints elsewhere they they were not Avari, but Avarin Elves would explain why the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are not Eldarin (Appendix F) and why their languages -- even as spoken in this history (before the revised edition) -- are not Eldarin.
Or forget Avarin, even Elves who spoke Silvan Elvish would explain Aragorn's seeming inability to understand the speech of the Silvan Elves of Lorien. By the time we get to the late 1950s early 1960s (Words Phrases and Passages, and Quendi And Eldar), Tolkien clearly enough considered the languages of the Silvan Elves to be Eldarin, even if they were Nandorin -- but even in Words, Phrases and Passages we still see Tolkien vacillating...
... did the Lorien Elves speak Nandorin (Silvan), of some sort of Sindarin? Even here he's still considering that it might be Nandorin. Of course we know his ultimate decision, and one can arguably plug in Tolkien's new footnote and make things work, but in any case the confusion concerning Greenwood seems to have continued: in a 'late' text published in Unfinished Tales it was said Oropher (father of Thranduil father of Legolas) and some Sindar merged with the Silvan Elves 'adopting their language'
In another late text (same book) it was said that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in Lórien and the Realm of Thranduil.
According to another passage (again described as 'late') Sindarin was said to be used in Thranduil's house -- thus used by his son Legolas one would expect -- 'though not by all his folk.'
And in a letter dated Dec. 1972 (another late example!) Tolkien explained that: 'The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.'
And in late posthumously published texts, Tolkkien does refer to the Silvan Elves as Eldarin Elves or at least Eldar "in origin", because they are Nandor who originally took up the Great March, but that's not exactly what he had published in my opinion, as in The Lord of the Rings the Eldar are the Elves of the Great March who passed to Aman, plus the Sindar only.
To be clear I'm not saying some measure of all this is not reconcilable, but again Tolkien seemed to have been undecided about things even after he published The Lord of the Rings, and some of the stuff he wrote might represent changing conceptions instead of somewhat vague parts of the same whole.
... then the footnote added to the second edition basically says that the only language they speak in this history is in fact Eldarin. No doubt I'm splitting hairs as to what I think could have been clearer, and actually I think your: "Thus, I think the Silvan language noted as "not appearing in this history" is specifically the original First Age language that was later displaced by Sindarin" is better, as Tolkien himself does not directly say the "Silvan" languages of earlier days do not appear in the history, but more simply the languages of the East-elves -- of course your interpretation is sensible and can be constructed from what is said, I just think Tolkien could have said it more clearly by adjusting a word or two in the original Appendix F description, when he added the footnote.
And actually, I suspect at least, that the original meaning of Appendix F could have been that the languages of the East-elves do not appear in this history because even the Elves of Lorien (met by the reader) were speaking a non-Eldarin tongue (not Sindarin). This explans not only Frodo's confusion, but why even Aragorn -- or so it appears anyway -- cannot understand the songs the Elves create for the fallen Mithrandir.
I we look at the draft Appendices for Appendix F we can see that the old abandond conception is at first still in play. In these versions the Noldor still speak "Noldorin" (which was, externally, really an earlier form of Sindarin!) and some of the Elves of Middle-earth speak "Lemberin" or Telerian -- so I'll skip to the first draft version that illustrates the updated scenario (the Noldor bring Quenya with them to Middle-earth and adopt Sindarin). This is the draft F4, which includes...
"... for there were other Elves of various kind in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there (...) Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter nothing appears in this book, and of the many Elvish names of persons or of places that are used most are of Grey-elven form."
And in The Tale of Years, draft, T4: "... Remants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) established realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these people are Avari or East-elves."
I think there is at least the arguable suggestion that the Silvan Elves were considered, at one point or another, Avarin. That said even these quotes are not necessarily a slam dunk, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are hints elsewhere they they were not Avari, but Avarin Elves would explain why the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are not Eldarin (Appendix F) and why their languages -- even as spoken in this history (before the revised edition) -- are not Eldarin.
Or forget Avarin, even Elves who spoke Silvan Elvish would explain Aragorn's seeming inability to understand the speech of the Silvan Elves of Lorien. By the time we get to the late 1950s early 1960s (Words Phrases and Passages, and Quendi And Eldar), Tolkien clearly enough considered the languages of the Silvan Elves to be Eldarin, even if they were Nandorin -- but even in Words, Phrases and Passages we still see Tolkien vacillating...
... did the Lorien Elves speak Nandorin (Silvan), of some sort of Sindarin? Even here he's still considering that it might be Nandorin. Of course we know his ultimate decision, and one can arguably plug in Tolkien's new footnote and make things work, but in any case the confusion concerning Greenwood seems to have continued: in a 'late' text published in Unfinished Tales it was said Oropher (father of Thranduil father of Legolas) and some Sindar merged with the Silvan Elves 'adopting their language'
In another late text (same book) it was said that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in Lórien and the Realm of Thranduil.
According to another passage (again described as 'late') Sindarin was said to be used in Thranduil's house -- thus used by his son Legolas one would expect -- 'though not by all his folk.'
And in a letter dated Dec. 1972 (another late example!) Tolkien explained that: 'The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.'
And in late posthumously published texts, Tolkkien does refer to the Silvan Elves as Eldarin Elves or at least Eldar "in origin", because they are Nandor who originally took up the Great March, but that's not exactly what he had published in my opinion, as in The Lord of the Rings the Eldar are the Elves of the Great March who passed to Aman, plus the Sindar only.
To be clear I'm not saying some measure of all this is not reconcilable, but again Tolkien seemed to have been undecided about things even after he published The Lord of the Rings, and some of the stuff he wrote might represent changing conceptions instead of somewhat vague parts of the same whole.
Last edited by Elthir on Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
One thing which is muddled to me is that we seem to have a lot of Sindarin elves who end up as leaders of packs of Silvan elves. How exactly did that happen? We see sort of the equivalent in England with Normans ruling the Saxons, but that was outright conquest. Same with the old European families in South America. I'm assuming there was no fighting going on, so one has to wonder how this displacement happened. How exactly does elf heirarchy evolve? By the time we see it, the communities seem to have been established long ago, fixed by elven immortality.
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
I'm not sure Tolkien goes that deeply into the how of it Halfwise, but for example in Words Phrases And Passages he states (with respect to the Noldor ad Sindar going Eastwards into Eriador and beyond): "Being Elves of much greater power and knowledge they usually became rulers of the Elvish companies that they gathered about them."
And a section in Unfinished Tales seems to suggest that the Wood-elves welcomed the Noldor, and especially the Sindar, and under their leadership they became: "again ordered folk and increased in wisdom."
Anyway I would want Galadriel to rule, even if only just to keep her around
And a section in Unfinished Tales seems to suggest that the Wood-elves welcomed the Noldor, and especially the Sindar, and under their leadership they became: "again ordered folk and increased in wisdom."
Anyway I would want Galadriel to rule, even if only just to keep her around
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Well, Galadriel's obvious. But for the rest of them, would a Silvan leader who's been in place for a thousand years look up to see a Sindar elf coming and say "Right, so you've been to Valinor? I'll just be packing my bags, then." I think there'd be a lot of resentment that Tolkien sort of glosses over.
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
In the difficult text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (in which Amroth is Galadriel's son) Tolkien first wrote that Lorinand was ruled by native princes, but this is "later" revised to: "These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth." And when the Noldor and Sindar come among them, their "Sindarizing" under the impact of Beleriandic culture began. In this conception Galadriel flees to Lorinand after being ousted from power, and later Lorinand is committed by Galadriel to Amroth.
Of course later Amroth became the son of Amdir, and (as Eldo pointed out already) we see that Nimrodel herself regretted the incoming West-elves. Question then is, what was the earlier scenario as envisioned when Amdir became ruler of Lorinand?
In Appendix A to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn it's said that the Silvan Elves were a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari. And (another note) that Oroper had come among them with only a handful of Sindar "and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting..." At least here we don't seem to be stepping on any toes of any Silvan princes or rulers.
In Of The Rings Of Power it's said that these Elves "established realms" among the Silvan Elves, although in note 67 to Of Dwarves And Men it's said that the Nandor established small realms on either side of the Anduin. When I think of names for Nandorin leaders of the Elves of the Anduin Vale, so far all I can think of are those Elves that led remnants away, or more West (like Denethor and so on)... hmm, which means there probably are more names!
But interestingly, in a 1951 revision to Quenta Silmarillion (if I read this note correctly) the people of Dan -- here still from the host of the Noldor however -- were described as being not counted among the Eldar, nor yet among the Avari -- this is the idea that I use to smooth over how the Silvan folk can be Nandorin, not Eldarin (Appendix F) and yet not necessarily Avarin (despite Tolkien's posthumously published description of the term Eldar), and it may have something to say about why Tolkien chose the term East-elves and not "Avari" for the published version of Appendix F... that is, if JRRT was vacillating still, or unsure, calling the East-elves "not Eldar" didn't have to necessarily mean they were Avari, although whether or not their languages were Eldarin is perhaps a little trickier.
In any case, the main point might be: did the Nandor of Eriador and the Vale of Anduin just assimilate to the Sindar and Noldor, and by virtue of their greater wisdom and power the Noldor and Sindar rose to leaders among them -- where before the peoples were small and scattered, leaderless (?) before the migration East... and "wandering" (in Eriador).
Maybe... though this being Tolkien I feel almost certain that I'm forgetting something obvious, or that there is some text somewhere to sweep this sand castle out to Ulmo. I know that Celeborn was "once" considered a Nandorin Lord, and perhaps Amroth was too, but both are later considered Sindarin anyway... so...
... erm, what have I forgotten? I feel it's something... if not nothing
Of course later Amroth became the son of Amdir, and (as Eldo pointed out already) we see that Nimrodel herself regretted the incoming West-elves. Question then is, what was the earlier scenario as envisioned when Amdir became ruler of Lorinand?
In Appendix A to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn it's said that the Silvan Elves were a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari. And (another note) that Oroper had come among them with only a handful of Sindar "and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting..." At least here we don't seem to be stepping on any toes of any Silvan princes or rulers.
In Of The Rings Of Power it's said that these Elves "established realms" among the Silvan Elves, although in note 67 to Of Dwarves And Men it's said that the Nandor established small realms on either side of the Anduin. When I think of names for Nandorin leaders of the Elves of the Anduin Vale, so far all I can think of are those Elves that led remnants away, or more West (like Denethor and so on)... hmm, which means there probably are more names!
But interestingly, in a 1951 revision to Quenta Silmarillion (if I read this note correctly) the people of Dan -- here still from the host of the Noldor however -- were described as being not counted among the Eldar, nor yet among the Avari -- this is the idea that I use to smooth over how the Silvan folk can be Nandorin, not Eldarin (Appendix F) and yet not necessarily Avarin (despite Tolkien's posthumously published description of the term Eldar), and it may have something to say about why Tolkien chose the term East-elves and not "Avari" for the published version of Appendix F... that is, if JRRT was vacillating still, or unsure, calling the East-elves "not Eldar" didn't have to necessarily mean they were Avari, although whether or not their languages were Eldarin is perhaps a little trickier.
In any case, the main point might be: did the Nandor of Eriador and the Vale of Anduin just assimilate to the Sindar and Noldor, and by virtue of their greater wisdom and power the Noldor and Sindar rose to leaders among them -- where before the peoples were small and scattered, leaderless (?) before the migration East... and "wandering" (in Eriador).
Maybe... though this being Tolkien I feel almost certain that I'm forgetting something obvious, or that there is some text somewhere to sweep this sand castle out to Ulmo. I know that Celeborn was "once" considered a Nandorin Lord, and perhaps Amroth was too, but both are later considered Sindarin anyway... so...
... erm, what have I forgotten? I feel it's something... if not nothing
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Back to Eldo's post... which got me thinking about names again, which I love to do. I'm not sure I can offer a great theory (yet or ever) about the scenario of Elvish and Adunaic names associated with Dol Amroth, but I did some digging and unless I've missed something, do we know that the name Adrahil is necessarily Grey-elven?
Far (far) be it from me to question Carl Hostetter and Patrick Wynne (Vinyar Tengwar 25, 1992, An Adunaic Dictionary), but even they do not seem wholly certain: "The names of the Lords of Dol Amroth -- Galador, Angelimar, Adrahil -- appear to be Elvish in form, but Imrahil contains the same initial element as Ad. Imrazor; perhaps Imrahil is intended as *"heir of Imrazor".
Imrahil is noted as a Numenorean name in Appendix E (see entry for CH), and in draft versions of Appendix F we had both Imrahil and (added at some point) Adrahil as Elvish names (at this stage, Lemberin or Telerian, as in the abandoned, earlier scenario). So I wonder at least two things... did Adrahil become a Numenorean name when Imrahil did? Or due to only Imrahil being noted, did Adrahil "still" belong to an Elvish language?
Anyway, as far as folks knowledgeable (on the web or other secondary sources) about Tolkien's languages, I'm finding no real consensus on whether or not Adrahil (for both characters I guess) is Elvish or Adunaic.
Far (far) be it from me to question Carl Hostetter and Patrick Wynne (Vinyar Tengwar 25, 1992, An Adunaic Dictionary), but even they do not seem wholly certain: "The names of the Lords of Dol Amroth -- Galador, Angelimar, Adrahil -- appear to be Elvish in form, but Imrahil contains the same initial element as Ad. Imrazor; perhaps Imrahil is intended as *"heir of Imrazor".
Imrahil is noted as a Numenorean name in Appendix E (see entry for CH), and in draft versions of Appendix F we had both Imrahil and (added at some point) Adrahil as Elvish names (at this stage, Lemberin or Telerian, as in the abandoned, earlier scenario). So I wonder at least two things... did Adrahil become a Numenorean name when Imrahil did? Or due to only Imrahil being noted, did Adrahil "still" belong to an Elvish language?
Anyway, as far as folks knowledgeable (on the web or other secondary sources) about Tolkien's languages, I'm finding no real consensus on whether or not Adrahil (for both characters I guess) is Elvish or Adunaic.
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Lots to catch up on here. Unfortunately I'm still a little of out of it, though not as bad as yesterday (medication changes and side-effects ... yay) so I can't really give Elthir's posts the responses they deserve. I do appreciate your insight into the Silvan question. I can definitely see where you're coming from with arguing that Tolkien was undecided and I can't really disagree there.
I was always a little bit uncomfortable with the very brief statements about how the Sindarin princes established control over the Silvan elves. We know from the Nimrodel story that there was resentment of this, and we know from Tolkien's writing about the Númenóreans (especially in his initially etymological thoughts regarding the Gwathló valley and its native inhabitants; found in UT) that he had an understanding of colonialism and its negative effects on the colonized. I suppose that we could presume that the Sindar and the Silvan Elves, being perhaps fairly closely related (unless the Silvan were more Avarin), the two groups were more amenable to merging and adopting the ways of the more organized and militaristic Sindar. And the Nimrodel story also demonstrates that Elves who resented the change were allowed to live on the fringes of the new realms without, it seems, being harassed (though it's hard to say how representative Nimrodel was due to her relationship with Amroth). But I dunno, it's always seemed to me that there would have been a nasty side had Tolkien wrote more about the topic, given that he didn't shun away from that in other contexts (Númenor, Gondor, Rohan and the Dunlendings, etc.).
I really appreciate you posting that Vinyar Tengwar quote, Elthir. I should really just bite the bullet and shell out for the back issues. That is fascinating and, I think, of some potential significance to the theory. Plenty more to read about and consider...
I was always a little bit uncomfortable with the very brief statements about how the Sindarin princes established control over the Silvan elves. We know from the Nimrodel story that there was resentment of this, and we know from Tolkien's writing about the Númenóreans (especially in his initially etymological thoughts regarding the Gwathló valley and its native inhabitants; found in UT) that he had an understanding of colonialism and its negative effects on the colonized. I suppose that we could presume that the Sindar and the Silvan Elves, being perhaps fairly closely related (unless the Silvan were more Avarin), the two groups were more amenable to merging and adopting the ways of the more organized and militaristic Sindar. And the Nimrodel story also demonstrates that Elves who resented the change were allowed to live on the fringes of the new realms without, it seems, being harassed (though it's hard to say how representative Nimrodel was due to her relationship with Amroth). But I dunno, it's always seemed to me that there would have been a nasty side had Tolkien wrote more about the topic, given that he didn't shun away from that in other contexts (Númenor, Gondor, Rohan and the Dunlendings, etc.).
I really appreciate you posting that Vinyar Tengwar quote, Elthir. I should really just bite the bullet and shell out for the back issues. That is fascinating and, I think, of some potential significance to the theory. Plenty more to read about and consider...
Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.
Some further thoughts on Dol Amroth's possibly unique situation in Gondor, probably way too verbose for being based on such a brief quote. {{{Seriously guys, please let me know if I'm going overboard with this and it's just tedious or patronizing.}}}
Eldorion wrote:Something else that occurred to me while I was doing some unrelated Tolkien reading were the following comments regarding King Tarannon Falastur of Gondor, who reigned T.A. 830-913, although his military accomplishments came before he ascended the throne.LOTR, Appendix A.I.v wrote:With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship-kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of Mouths of Anduin. To commemorate his victories as Captaiin of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'.
At this point, a map of Gondor's coastlines along the Bay of Belfalas might be useful. I'll use this one from the Encyclopedia of Arda:
Falastur's successors mainly pushed his conquests further south, subjugating Umbar, the surrounding region, and eventually all of Harad as tributaries. Therefore, Falastur is mainly noted for his conquest of Harondor (South Gondor), since that set the stage for the subsequent conquests, which helped launch the golden age of Gondor in the Third Age. However, what I'm more interested in is the comment that Falastur pushed the borders of Gondor west, into regions with no clear geographical division from the core area of Gondor, but that is implied to have put up armed resistance to Dúnedain conquest. These are the same regions inhabited by the pre-Dúnedain indigenous inhabitants of Gondor discussed in the OP.
Now, the area immediately to the west of the Mouths of Anduin (aka Ethir Anduin; a river delta) are southern Lebennin, then followed by Dor-en-Ernil and/or Belfalas (depending on whether you consider those two terms to be synonyms or not). I believe that these regions, especially Lebennin, would have been firmly integrated into the realm of Gondor before Falastur's time. In Unfinished Tales it is stated that Isildur took his nephew Meneldil and journeyed around the borders of turn-of-the-Age Gondor, before finally creating a burial mound for Elendil on the hill Eilenaer (later Amon Anwar) because it was "near to the center of the lands of Gondor" and was later considered the official "mid-point of the Kingdom of the South" (as opposed to Arnor, the Exilic Kingdom of the North; UT, Cirion and Eorl, The Tradition of Isildur).
Just judging by eye from the official maps, Amon Anwar appears to have been nearer to the southern frontier of Gondor in its original borders, but fairly close to the middle, prior to the cession of Calenardhon to the Rohirrim. UT notes, it was that cession that prompted the removal of Elendil's tomb to Minas Tirith on the grounds that Amon Anwar was no longer the center of the realm, since Gondor had voluntarily given up the lands that would become Rohan, as opposed to losing them in war. Interestingly, "The Tradition of Isildur" makes no note of the vast lands that Gondor had gained (and in some cases subsequently lost) during the Third Age. It appears that those were not factored in, implying either that they were always considered mere territories or, in my opinion the more likely option, that it was really just the fact that they didn't want Elendil's tomb to be on the border with a foreign country (as is noted in UT) that prompted the move, moreso than any preoccupation with geometry that might have been given as an excuse.
Anyway, what is more relevant to the OP is that Amon Anwar is also pretty damn close to the mid-way point between Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth on the east-west axis, although it is farther north than either of them. This suggests to me that the Second Age boundaries of Gondor did not extend much further west than Dol Amroth south of the White Mountains. (North of the Mountains is a different matter, as we know the early Gondorians constructed Helm's Deep and Isengard considerably further west, though that would make Amon Anwar not so central.) This would put the Princes of Belfalas (since Dol Amroth had not yet acquired that name) right on the frontier of Gondor, I think lending further circumstantial evidence to my case regarding the nature of their princedom and the greater use of Adûnaic.
One final note, the fact that Falastur is noted as a conquerer of coastal regions makes it pretty clear that the Anfalas (roughly the Gondorian coast to the west of Edhellond) was still inhabited by native Gondorians eight centuries into the Third Age. This makes it pretty much indisputable that the arrival of Elves in Edhellond did not result in the wholesale removal of the native population from the entire coast. I suppose it remains a somewhat open question regarding when the native inhabitants were displaced in the areas east of Edhellond, nearer to the Anduin, but given that all of our late Second Age/early Third Age references are about them as men of the mountains, I think it's safe to say that, at the latest, the arrival of the Númenóreans in the Anduin valley prompted their removal. Again establishing the unique position of Dol Amroth as a major coastal settlement that nonetheless had to deal with close non-Dúnedain neighbors for nearly a millennium after the establishment of Gondor.
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