Questions for the Lore Masters.

{{ Cheers Elthir. That does explain it nicely, have a buckie, on Odo's tab. I hadnt even noticed till I doublechecked on the large Mordor map in my edition that it is indeed still spelled with a k, and not as throughout the text with a c. The little things that are there in front of you all the time and yet you dont notice, isnt that just life! }}

BTW, I just noticed in my edition of Tale of Years that Samwise as Mayor twice sends Elanor and husband to be the Wardens of Westmarch, which may seem to be a reappointment except that each time their descendents populate the Tower Hills. Two separate litters? I think rather it's an oversight.

This is in the 1965 version, do other versions correct this?

Long story short, that reduplication error has been corrected.

The first edition entry reads a bit differently, but this "Wardening" appears only once there as well.

{{ Heres a question, who built the tombs of the Barrow Downs?
Now I know the obvious answer is the last of the Dunedain who dwelt in that region. But, and this has always nagged at me, its implied (or posibly even stated by Tolkien somewhere) that the barrow the hobbits ended up in was that of the last Prince of Cardolan.
And from what Merry says upon waking up these people were destroyed in fighting and swept away.
So who buried them? Its not like you can knock up a stone cairn with megalithic blocks with a couple of blokes and a wheel barrow.
So if they were all wiped out or forced to flee the area, who were the large group needed to quarry and move the stones? Build the tomb? How were they housed, fed ect if the area was under military seige? Or worse lost to the Enemy.
Could Tom even have buried and entombed them?}}

I was just reading the appendices, and it seems some of the barrow downs were constructed by the forefathers of the dunedain before they even went to westernesse. So they were already ancient by the time of the three kingdoms and may have been used multiple times. Perhaps families had cairns constructed for the entire line. Alternatively, don't many kings construct their tombs before they die?

{{ Egyptian Pharoahs had their tombs built in their lifetmes. We dont really know for stone cairns however, we dont even know who was in them, places like Maes Howe a neolthic tomb were also used for ritual at solstices (as indicated by the light box to allow the suns light to enter the tomb on the solstices, same as at the Newgrange barrow).







Smaller tomb burial cairns can be as simple as four or five large stone slabs positioned to form walls and a roof, such as the one near me known locally as Adams Grave.



The ones in lotR's seem to be somewhere between the two- they have standing stones and megalithic stones of the Adam's Grave style tombs, but are bigger in scale if not quite Newgrange or Maes Howe big (you couldnt fit 4 hobbits in a small chambered cairn, and the book mentions more than one passageway inside which is more ike the layout of Maes Howe which has three chambers inside).  So its not entirely clear to me exactly how large the barrows were, I assume Tolkien had places like Maes Howe in mind however.}}

I've been trying to search this out for awhile.  Aragorn doesn't feel he has a pass to marry Arwen until the White Tree is blooming in Minas Tirith.  Before this point it's never mentioned.  I went through the appendices and Elrond never makes this a precondition.  There is mention that it's a symbol of Gondor, but there had been more than one, and they didn't die at strongly symbolic times.  The first died during the great plague, but the kings were still in power.  The second died during the reign of an otherwise unmemorable steward, and had only been dead a couple hundred years.

Why was Aragorn so convinced the white tree had to be growing again as THE sign that he would be married?

It turns out I'm not the only one who wondered about this (though precious few have) - on Reddit I finally found a satisfactory answer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/3z1tix/why_was_aragorn_so_intent_on_finding_a/

But the answer I was looking for didn't appear until far, far down the line of responses.  A certain Bhakan pointed out that Tar Palantir of Numenor  prophesied that the line of kings was tied to the tree. Pretty obscure. It's in the Silmarillion, which I shall now go look up.

I read somewhere that Highland rocks in Sutherland are the oldest in the world. I wonder how they can tell.

Though I know radioactive decay is involved, I don't see any explanation of why volcanism should reset the isotope ratio - atomic nucleii don't care about temperatures as cool as magma.

{{ Was nosing through Letters, as is my wont when I have a bored minute or two, and further to the previous conversation of elvish ears I found this passage in Letter 144, though not about ears it is about the differences, or similarities more like, between elves and men, but included a couple of references which intrigued me. The quote goes-

'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearence (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature.'

The impliction here is that there was some physical divergence from men over time, but what was it? Tolkien sadly does not go on to say, and why were they more similar in appearence in the past? The reference to stature implies that was one of the main differences that developed but again Tolkien does not elaborate on whose stature changed, or if it was both races stature that changed over time, or in what manner.

Is there any further information on this buried away somewhere in Tolkiens writings anyone is aware of?}}

it was the elves of middle earth who dwindled, and in fairy tales at least were reduced to minute stature.

But speaking of losing elves, how come we never hear of all the lives that must have been lost when Beleriand was drowned along with Numenor? And why is it that with Beleriand hanging around during nearly the whole second age we never hear of any goings-on there during that time? Sure, many elves would have returned to Valinor after the War of Wrath, but there were plenty of men and dwarves still kicking around, plus a few elves as well I'd wager. What happened to all of them?

{{ Not sure about elves dwindling to fairy tales as Tolkien openly hated that representation, seems unlikely to me he'd incorporate it into his own tale. }}

Still no response to what happened to all those doomed souls in Beleriand when Numenor was swallowed?  Or was Beleriand swamped during the War of Wrath and my timeline is all wrong?

EDIT: yeah, that was it.  I had the timeline all wrong.  
Don't mind me, I'm just gonna wander off and disappear.

{{ I hadn't had time to nosey into the Beleriand stuff, but seems you found your own answer Halfy!
Another little bit in the same Letter as previous; 144 (its one of the long letters) has a reference to an epilogue to LotR's that seems to have been completed but was never included in the finished work, I wonder if it exists still anywhere?

'Hobbit children were delightful, but I am afraid that the only glimpses of them in this book are found in the beginning of vol 1. An epilogue giving a further glimpse (though of a rather exceptional family) has been so universally condemned that I shall not insert it. One must stop somewhere.'

I assume the exceptional family is Sam's and the children referenced are his own. And it couldnt have been universally condemned unless it was fully written out to be read. But I know of nowhere it appears. Anyone have more on this? }}

If I recall correctly, two versions of the unused Epilogue were published in Sauron Defeated, along with the King's Letter (spoiler alert: Aragorn is the King).

The Elven "stature" question is interesting. Tar-Elenion gathered up a collection of descriptions illustrating Tolkien's changing mind with respect to the stature of Elves versus Men, including this notion from the early 1920s: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now" The Book of Lost Tales

Which idea seems to me (and as I think is evidenced in other sections of BOLT too) that Elves had diminished, so that "at first" Elves being far greater than they are "now" -- coupled with Men being smaller "then" -- brought both folk closer in stature.

Tolkien's changes go on over the years in any case, but besides the alterations that lead us to the relative heights of Men versus Elves back then, what does in "former days" suggest about our "now", given that (as I interpret the scenario so far anyway, before Carl Hostetter's new book especially) the Elves would no longer dwindle in size even after they faded.



My best "answer" at the moment is to give precedence to what Tolkien himself published about the word "Elves" being used to translate the words Quendi and Eldar (in Appendix F) -- and although the tallness of the Eldar is not mentioned until a little later in the paragraph, Tolkien has chosen to comment on what the word Elf "now" suggests, for example, even stating that the true Quendi were not winged.

Or something.

{{ Thanks Elthir, Ill need to try to track that epilogue down, Im curious now as to whats in it that others found so unpalatable.
On stature if memory serves Galadriel is quite tall. }}

{{ Gandalf tells Frodo that he knew the Bilbo had found was one of the Great Rings 'from the first'- as he obvioulsy didnt suspect it was the One Ring or he'd have done something decades earlier, what ring did he think it was? The Three were accounted for, and as the Nazgul dont die while Sauron's spirit endures he'd have to presume it wasnt one of the Nine either, as Sauron had them.
That only leaves the Seven as contenders. But did they not have stones set in them like the Three? Or am I misremembering? }}

I'm not sure the terms "great ring" and "ring of power" are completely synonymous.  I think the second may refer specifically to the 3, 7 and 9, while the term "great ring" refers to those made in Eregion after the tutelage of Sauron, but not necessary the rings of power.  That's the impression I've long gotten from the passage in Shadow of the Past because otherwise as you say it would have to be a dwarven ring.  Gandalf did say that he had half forgotten Saruman's statement about each ring except the one having it's own stone, and that realization impelled him to look into the characteristics of the One Ring.

But all other sources disagree with me and say the two terms are interchangeable.

{{ I'm sure Gandalf refers to Great Rings as being the 3,7, and 9 and 1. And the rest (the ones made under Sauron's tutelage to start with) he calls 'Lesser Rings' before the art was perfected, 'essays in the craft' is I think the phrase from memory he uses to describe them- but by defintion Lesser Rings cannot be Great Rings. So that still only leaves the ring Bilbo has as being one of the known rings?}}

Okay, I'm wrong: "The lesser rings were only essays in the craft.....but to my mind still dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

Clearly one and the same. But even if Gandalf thought it was one of the Seven it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would leave it lie for so long, or that the dwarves with Bilbo would have had only passing interest in it. I think it's just a plot hole Tolkien never fully closed.

{{ What I find odd is not that it might just be a plot hole, I could go with that. But that Tolkien has Gandalf specifically state that he knew from the first it was a Great Ring. Without that line then Gandalf assuming it was a lesser ring would make sense, as the rest were accounted for and Saruman had assured everyone the Great Ring was lost to the sea (and he was the expert on the rings not Gandalf). So Gandalf not being too concerend would make sense. But that one line throws the cat among the pigeons as it were. It strange Tolkien never revised it among all the other revisions made. As if to him it did make sense and was not a plot hole.}}

One gets the impression that Gandalf actually didn't know much about the Great Rings except what was common knowledge. Tolkien had no internet and was well familiar with medieval dispersal of knowledge, so was comfortable with the idea that such details would remain unknown even to the wise. How did he know about the dwarven rings gathered by Sauron or destroyed by dragons? We never hear the details.

{{ Problem there is how then could he make the very firm determination that it was clear from the first that the ring Bilbo had was a Great Ring? Why leave that line in, if the aim was to show that Gandalf didnt have complete knowledge on the subject its contary to achieving that to have him seem so sure about such an importance fact.
What even prompted Gandalf to make that determination, what was it about that ring which clued him in to it being a Great Ring and not a lesser ring to start with? }}

The main clue would have been the long life of Gollum, but it was a long time before Gandalf actually met gollum so wouldn't have known that. I think Tolkien just didn't do a good clean up job. He admitted there were many inconsistencies, but after it was published didn't feel obliged to fix everything.