Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[Orwell]

I imagine they will treat the coverup as a seperate issue from the events of the day- that seems only sensible.

Can't argue with that.

[Pettytyrant101]

I have rewatched some of the other footage- particularly outside the gate- there seem to have been severaly inadequate numbers of police at the gate- a few on foot and only 4 mounted- the crowd is increasingly restless- but there is no signs at all of violent behaviour- the police on foot are moving among the crowd without abuse.

This is from that days edition of Match of the Day- but it does show fairly well the crowd outside- I see no evidence for the drunken violent behaviour the police later claimed- or any sign that fans are 'forcing' their way in.



I think perhaps the Inquiry could have phrased their finding in a less polarised fashion- but it is clear from both major inquiries that neither could find any evidence for the crowd behaviour being the root of or a major contributing factor in what happened.

[Orwell]

In Aussie, huge crowds attend finals (in all codes, Aussie Rules, Rugby League and Rugby Union, and Football*). We rarely have a large number of police (in proportion to the crowd) either inside or outside the ground. We rarely have anything remotely close to hooliganism (gang-wise, anyhow) at out games. In fact, supporters in our crowds mingle together with not a lot of real problems arising, or not often. There are pockets of supporters that sit together and Cheer Squads behind the goals, of course. We don't tend to go to war against each other over a footy game. Did the police at Hillsborough expect violence to break out, or was the view that hooliganism was not going to be a particular problem that day? If there were fears of major violence, I guess more police should have been in attendance outside as a precaution. But I can't see why they would have necessarily expected a crowd crush to occur. If they feared it, how many police would have been needed? And anyway, wouldn't other plans been laid before hand? Your crowd seemed friendly on the day, so why more police? More police does not necessarily mean better planning.




NB * We have had some history of violence (mainly between Etnic Groups, though religion can sometimes intrude) at Football games, but in our new league (Hyundai A-League which is only about ten years old) much of the Ethnic rivalries have been extinguished. Every football club in Australia is geographically based now, not ethnically (or religion-ly). It has basically totally ridden itself of tribal warfare at the National level. (It's actually safe to go to football games now. I even took my kids once).

[Pettytyrant101]

The report critisices in particular the 'mentality' of SYP in their preperations- their assumption there would be crowd trouble seems to have played a large part in the amount of time it took them to realise what was actually happening.

In fairness to them football hooliganism was at its peak in the 1980's.
But it seems form the report that this crowded their thinking to such a degree they didnt even consider any other possibilities.

A hard one to call however- but as you say- the crowd seems friendly enough so why this mentality persisted on the day is another question.

[Pettytyrant101]

Having let all the info sink in a bit over the last few days of looking into it my own opinion is that when the first reports of a problem at the gate arose those in charge assumed it to be a hooligan problem- not a crowd managment one- and everything else disasterous that followed came from that one initial error of judgement- they never really got back out that thinking until it was too late.

[Orwell]

On the otherhand there are reasons for planning and procedures and training- and not to follow any of it has to be an error surely?

So many things to consider! I passed over this a bit earlier during the cut and thrust of discussion, but it's an important question.

There was an Operation Management Plan, I'm sure. But only a small part of the totality, surely, was not adhered to at the beginning of the thing? And what was the 'plan' in regard to a dangerous 'crowd crush' actually occurring?*

I feel there might have been more in the Plan about preventing a crowd crush, than how one stopped a crush once it began. Clearly the preventing part of it was seriously marred when someone at the coal face made his/their plan-on-the-run in reaction to a sudden fear of deaths occurring outaside the ground?


* I'd be interested to know how anyone could in a practical (operational) way reverse an in-progress crowd crush once it was happening. The knowledge might come in handy one day.

[Orwell]

The report critisices in particular the 'mentality' of SYP in their preperations- their assumption there would be crowd trouble seems to have played a large part in the amount of time it took them to realise what was actually happening.

We are creatures of (mental) habit and sometimes we take along time to respond to new stimuli, maybe?

In fairness to them football hooliganism was at its peak in the 1980's. But it seems form the report that this crowded their thinking to such a degree they didnt even consider any other possibilities.

But when things went 'funny-kind-of' the reptile part of the brain returned instantly to previous mental conditioning, maybe?

A hard one to call however- but as you say- the crowd seems friendly enough so why this mentality persisted on the day is another question.

Seems an easy question to answer, as one 'conditioned' human to another, Petty.

[Orwell]

Having let all the info sink in a bit over the last few days of looking into it my own opinion is that when the first reports of a problem at the gate arose those in charge assumed it to be a hooligan problem- not a crowd managment one- and everything else disasterous that followed came from that one initial error of judgement- they never really got back out that thinking until it was too late.

And I feel for everyone involved. It was a tragic event all round. Only the cover-up can really be seen as blameworthy (after a fair trial, of course!)

[Pettytyrant101]

All very true Orwell- but also clearly mistakes were made all over the shop- and hopefully all this will get to to the bottom of which mistakes were understandable and explainable and which were genuine failure to follow their own procedures- clearly even the build up preperations to this were a mess- taking off the Senior Ooficer with plenty previous experience policing Hillsborough and replacing him with someone with much less experience and lamost none of Hillsborough- the failure to get the fire and ambulance services to attend the prematch preparations meeting- all this needs to be looked at to see why these happened also- were they human error? Clerical errors? Or did someone make those decisions?


edit add- I agree about the coverup- the rest is a complex web of events, human emotion and reactions- but the coverup was delibrate and orchestrated and persisted in for two decades- thats a whole different unpleasant kettle of fish.

[Orwell]

A kettle of rotten fish, indeed! Though humans do tend to worry about criticism (not just police in my experience), and excuse-making (and often, lie-making) are often our first response. Instead of, "Look, in retrospect, we could have done better, but at the time we did what we thought was best, with the best of intentions - and on the run to boot. But, yes, there was too much complacency in the pre-plannng, or lack of pre-planning, indeed! It's just, well, we've got away with it up until now, and we've probably saved a lot of man hours - and money from the Public Purse - in letting things go on as we've always done it. It's never a problem really until the shit hits the fan, and why waste too much time and resources on something that may never happen?"

[David H]

Just on a side note, I remember when this happened though I'd only heard the hooliganism theory.

I don't think it's a coincidence that soon afterwards many US stadiums were extensively redesigned, or torn down completely and new ones built with much better engineering of crowd flow.

It sounds like changes in seating etc. were made in the UK too.

So despite the ugliness of the accident and following coverup, it seems some important lessons were learned by many of the right people.

[Pettytyrant101]

All seater stadiums, removal of the so called 'crush barriers' (proved a very unfortunate name that)- going to a match now in all seater stadium is totally different experience - I was at a Rangers v Celtic match a few years ago (biggest game in scotland- crowd of about 50,000) and going into the stadium there wasnt even something recognisable as a crowd- you could walk completely free with ease with metres of space around you.
Also most grounds these days are all season ticket (league games anyway) so you have an allocated seat- so there is none of the occasional 'rush' of old trying to get in- you know your seat will be there.

So there certainly was some good came of it in that sense and huge improvements made country wide.

[Orwell]

So despite the ugliness of the accident and following coverup, it seems some important lessons were learned by many of the right people.

I guess it has some relation to this view I have of 'human conditioning' rising it's ugly head again in a sense, David. We respond very well to what's happened, but not so well to what an intelligent conversation may lead us to think might quite reasonably - when you think about it and study history - be something bad that will likely happen in the future!

I think of a dangerous intersection as a possible example. You kind of know it is, especially when a few minor collisions have occurred, but it's likely (with so many possibly fatal intersections around to choose from) that nothing will be redesigned at said intersection until someone's killed. That intersection is definitely a great chance of being quickly remedied if someone is killed! (Other similar intersections may be also designed anew too - depending on the ratio of public outrage over the amount of money it'll cost to do it!)

I'm also minded now of something that happened many years ago (which is not really directly germane to this conversation, but still kind of is in my mind!) Years ago there was Judge who folk thought was a bit lenient on young drivers 'hooning' in cars - as we call it - and causing accidents and injury and property damage. When his own daughter became seriously injured as a direct result of just such a 'hoon' driver, his sentencing became - coincidentally of course! - a little severer!

[Orwell]

I remember years and years ago at packed Aussie Rules games where most people were in standing areas. I can't recall any life taking crushing going on. Was Hillsborough the only time it happened, it was it a common problem, Petty?

[Pettytyrant101]

There had been problems before- particularly in 1988. So it was not unknown- a lot of the stadiums were poorly maintained- the crush at the gate came about because the ancient old turnstyle system was so slow.
It was aggrivated on the day by the police decision not to do what they did before and funnel the fans however.

[Orwell]

On the surface you would think turnstiles would 'slow' the flow into the ground and might easily be managed. What was happening outside that put police in fear of people being injured or killed, I wonder?

(I'll read any response when I get home. Sadly, my Leave is over. It's off back to work I go (hi ho hi ho). Mind you, I think I'm a little wiser now in the ways of the world after this loooooong serious discussion. Loooong serious discussions are not usually my thing, as you know! )

[Pettytyrant101]

Well its what the BBST is for!
And Ive enjoyed it, if thats the right word to use of such a conversation- perhaps better to say I have found it instructive.

As to your question I dont really know- I dint attend English matches as a kid so I dont know what it was like- however on the vid above from the Match of the Day he says there being a 'crush' outside the ground was normal- just not to this extent.
From that I am taking it it was not unknown at Hillsborough- I dont know the layout of the area outside of the ground at all so I dont know why this might occur.

Best of luck at work- after this conversation I dont envy you the responsibility! (But thanks for doing it even if it isnt in my country )

[Orwell]

I'm keeping away from crowds in future, though!

Cheers -- I'm really going now!

[Pettytyrant101]

A crabbit thought occurs to me (as they do) all those police keeping everyone safe, all those medical personal there to help in need (and yes even old carers like me) and all of them completely undervalued (financially as well as every other way) by society at large- yet the 22 men chasing a pigs bladder round a field get huge acclaim and the money to go with it.
Doesnt seem fair does it? Bastards!

[halfwise]

What I've been saying and part of why I've got no interest.

But if you think of the players as entertainers, are you upset by how much movie stars make?

[David H]

yet the 22 men chasing a pigs bladder round a field get huge acclaim and the money to go with it.
Doesnt seem fair does it? Bastards!

And how much to you think the farmer who raised that pig got?

[Orwell]

And what with Scotshobbits and their thievin' habits! How is a pig farmer --- or a half-pig farmer! - meant to survive?

[halfwise]

Bouh!

[Pettytyrant101]

But if you think of the players as entertainers, are you upset by how much movie stars make?- Halfwise

Guess.

[Orwell]

I wish police were paid as much as movie stars --- mind, I guess then they'd all retire... maybe take up acting... I've always thought I'd like to be an actor...