Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Pettytyrant101]

I agree about schools teaching it being Big Brotherish. I don't think it is in anyway intended to be so by those who run it but it is open to abuse by the wrong sort of government that I am deeply uncomfortable with. And we can never be sure we will never have such a government. Its not a huge step from schools teaching children morals, sex, how to be a good citizen, to the state taking children from birth to raise them 'for their own good.' After all the arguments for it can be made to sound plausable; "4 in every 5 abused children are abused by a relative. Do you want children to be abused? 40% of people mistreat or neglect a pet. Yet we let them have children. Is this what you want?" etc.

That leaves the parents with the role. I think modern society doesn't help here. In the past families tended to live within walking distance, or later within a short drive away. Today many people find they are raising a family some distance from relatives from either side, leaving them without a support system that is readily available. And an added proble to this in deprived areas (in some parts of the Scotland the average age of death is 20 or even 30 years below the British average) parents and grand parents are often either dead, ill or alcholic, drug dependant that they are unable and unsuitable to raise children.
And there is the other problem which in our PC world people dont seem to like talking about, some people are not nice people. They are selfish, egotistical, lack self awareness and react on instinct through raw displays of violence. These people will have children too. And there in lies the problem. Not in educating the parents but in society producing from its system less of these types of human being.

[odo banks]

Mm... perhaps if we were to perform the right sort of surgical procedures on certain types of people, we might stop the wrong kind of people breeding in the first place. I know this is very Hitlerarian, but it's nonetheless enticing... (You know, we could extend the program later --- for wouldn't a world with only genuine Tolkien fans be a much better place ).

[Pettytyrant101]

Right there is the problem of course. If you let the state deal with teaching children how to think, if it replaces parenting you are on the slippery slope to a Hitler style outlook. And if you leave things as they are you have to accept some children will be abused and neglected and turn out to be a problem to the rest of society when they grow up, perpetuating the problem.
And I am not sure our PC world is helping either. When I was a kid there was a very good reason for not doing certain things, if any adult caught me I would get at the least a smack round the back of the head and then I'd be taken home to my parents where, rather than today if it happened the police would be called, my Dad would give me another whack(or worse depending on the nature of my 'crime') for whatever it was I been caught doing, and thank who ever had caught me for bringing me to heel. Now granted I lived in a village when I was growing up (albeit quite large for a village, what with a US base there and all) but even so I could not conceive of doing that when I see some kids misbehaving now- but might it be so bad if people still could? At least that way if a child is getting no discipline or boundaries set at home wider society can impart them.

[Kafria]

Two things I want to reply to.

Firstly, the response to schools teaching sex ed intrigued me. Currently it is a legal requirement that schools teach the national curriculum, along with subject knowledge this also includes personal, social, health and citizenship education with a huge remit (government, human rights, budgeting, racial tolerance, drugs, sex ed, healthy eating, driver safety, UN, EU, laws and prison to think of the first few that spring to mind). We are also subject to the Every Child Matters framework (brought in after the Victoria Climbié case) Schools document If you read through this (blue table page There is a lot here that we are expected to promote legally. An awful lot of this can be seen as big brotherish and the job of the parents. Yet every time there is a problem in society the response is - schools should teach this. The amount we are supposed to achieve for students in 6.5 hours out of 24 each day (or even 16 wakeful hours) is incredible. My issue is not whether we should, I think until society helps provide a framework of the acceptable for those that don't get it at home schools need to even if we don't think we should have to, but that we are expected to do this with no training, every form tutor in school teaches this subject (very few schools have a specialist subject team) and does so with no training, in some schools having to plan lessons on an issue they know nothing about! Which does, I agree, leave it open for a lot of personal beliefs to be fed on by interferring staff. At least if there was training and dedicated planning (we do get planned lessons from one member of staff who is responsible for the PSHCE curriculum in our school) this is less of an issue.

Secondly, we are back to ordinary people standing up for what is good behaviour in the streets. The occasional shocking story of people being attacked for remonstrating with young people is one reason why this is becoming less common. Again my teaching puts me in a funny position here. I live near my school and frequently see the kids outside school, most are friendly and say hi, some even stop for a conversation, but occasionally when they are not behaving as they should I do wonder if I should get involved and how far I can before a parent will accuse me of over stepping the boundaries. (thankfully there has never been anything serious and usually the fact I am present sends the kids scuttling away as they know they are in the wrong, just the occasional one who feels brave enough to swear at me from the annonimity of the crowd.). If I feel like that when I know these kids, how much more difficult is it for people who don't know them?

[Kafria]

Okay, question for all.
The may 5th referendum (and scottish elections I know Petty!) is upcoming and the Yes and No campaigns are beginning to go for the throat. For those not in the UK the choice is do we keep a first past the post system (person who gets most votes wins, even though for decades now this has been someone with less than half the votes) or opt for a Alternative vote system (rank candidates, if no one has over 50% bottom candidates votes are re cast to second choice person etc until one candidate has more than 50% and is the winner).

First past the post is always going to be unfair now we are not a straight 2 party system (and I know the lib dems have no chance of an outright win but take enough of the vote each time to make it near impossible for a party to get 50% or more) so personallY I like the idea of a PR system, just not sure if AV is the best. The only info has been through the No campagin and to be fair it is pretty sensationalist (will cost three times as much, will give the BNP power!)

So for those here, what are your thoughts, general thoughts, I am not asking you to say how you are voting so hypotheticals are okay?

For those elsewhere, what is the electrol system, what are it's plus points, what are the negatives?

(On another note, looking at union conference notes it looks like I may have to face up to whether I believe in strikes in schools or not!)

[Pettytyrant101]

Well being in Scotland Ive had a PR vote for MSP's since it was set up. So for me all this bogey man stuff the 'no' campaign is putting out sounds fairly ridiculous.
Yes the BNP might get more representation- but thats not the fault of AV, its just AV will represent more fairly the people who vote for them- the 'no' campaign attitude on this boils down to if you have AV the people you vote for might actually get representation. Which seems silly in a democracy- is that not the point?
Granted AV is not full PR, which I would prefer as so far in Scotland the only groups it has helped are the Greens and Independants (almost noone votes BNP up here, or the anti-europe lot). As far as the big parties are concerned its effect is to make it much harder for them to get an outright majority- and this in turn has been good for democracy up here most of the time.
AV is not perfect (I don't think any system is) but its better than what we have in 1st past the post which always suits some parties (namely Labour and the Tories) better as it means they get an unfairly large representation in Parliament. Its no supriise they are scaremongering so much against it for that reason. In fact the more they scaremonger the more apprent it should be that the only interests they have at heart are their own.

[Kafria]

I'd also say it is a fairly difficult sell, 'AV won't work!' but 'yes our coalition is going to last the full five years!!!'. And regardless of what you think of the decisions or if it is a tory whitewash with the AV as the only bit of Lib dem, with the coalition being nearly a year old, that is a lot longer than a number were predicting it would last!

[Ally]

I'm extremely politically naive, but the idea that AV would allow a new favourite candidate if they original choice is out of the running, and so on, seems like a neat one. An analogy I like is that of sweets: a majority of 60% could vote for one type of sweets to have at a party, and using first past the post it would win, leaving 40% with a type of sweets they hate, which doesn't seem very fair at all.

I agree, now Britain isn't really a two party democracy any more, a large amounts of MPs are elected without a majority, meaning large numbers of people are represented by an MP which they didn't vote for!

Sadly, I won't be voting for I can't!!

[Kafria]

Sadly, I won't be voting for I can't!!

You seem less politically naive than I was even when I could 1st vote!

[Ally]

Most of my political views are from the letters section of the Independents "I" paper, opinions that seem neat I take for my own, and reproduce on the internet to appear clever!

[Kafria]

searching out varying opinions is one of the best ways to figure out your own ideas, it's why I like this thread!

[Pettytyrant101]

Quite agree Kafria- only thing I would ask is you should perhaps Ally broaden your opinions out, read a few different letters pages- all newspapers have an agenda. The more views you hear the better you will find you can come to your own judgements. And at your age i couldn't have given two figs for politics so good for you that you are showing an interest at all.

On the Av thing I see its causing some splits in the coalition. With the Health Sec (think it was him!) coming out and accusing his Tory cohorts of telling 'untruths' about AV to scare the voters and how dispicable it is.
Maybe this coalition wont last 5 years after all.
On a side note if the UK does get AV (and hopefully at a later date full PR) they will have to reshape Parliament. Every modern parliament is a circle chamber because it helps foster compromise and debate- and most recent parliaments are some form of PR, the Commons is delibrately confrontational and combative, not at all suited to conducting PR politics.

[odo banks]

I read only The Bugle (whenever its out) and that Scottish rag I ignore completely. I'll vote only for Bluebloods if it comes to having Forumshire Mayoral Elections, that's only sensible...

[Gandalf's Beard]

I am BACK, BIGGER, BADDER and EVEN MORE SERIOUSER than this thread can contain (thanks to Odo's coaxing me to Plug back in to the Matrix). (Petty, You will have to fight tooth and claw to maintain your position as #1 Crabbit on this board )

I started writing an email reply to Odo and it turned into the following Tirade. So, rather than blowing up Odo's inbox, I figured f***, I can't let this Venting of Molten Verbal Lava have an audience of one. So a Tip of the Hat to Odo for bringing me back.

I am itching to vent my spleen and post some vicious tirades about how the Conservatives over here (and apparently in the UK too) are determined to destroy civilization as we know it (with the Corporate/KKK/Neo-Nazi/John Bircher/Evangelical Theocrat/Tea Party Republicans leading the charge). They won't be happy until they have bankrupted our Nations, looted our Public Treasuries, eliminated all Social Programs that don't benefit the Rich (Corporate Subsidies will doubtless remain), and revived Feudalism with the new Royalty--The Merchants of Death, while peddling their ludicrous (and Orwellian) tracts about the Free Markets and Democracy.

Most people won't even know what's happening before it's too late, and I fear it is already too late for the US. The Corporate States of America have been running the show for over a hundred years, chipping away at the foundations of an already shaky democracy--of course you know the Constitution can't have been that brilliant to begin with: It was originally designed to allow for slavery (and even specifically counted African Americans as 3/fths of person-hood), no rights for women, and no franchise for anyone except Propertied White Males.

So the cards were stacked against any ACTUAL democracy from the start. But to be fair, it was considered a work in progress by many of the founders with a more democratic bent than many of the other founders. Abolition of slavery eventually came about, Women attained the franchise, and in the late 1960's American Apartheid was finally squashed (but by no means gone). Around this time Crazed Anti-communists like the John Birch society (founded and funded by Corporations of course: their racist anti-semitic agenda reads like a Nazi tract, i.e. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion etc) were marginalized by the New Republican Intellectuals.

All well and good eh? Well once Reagan and Thatcher took over the Class War was back on. It was full tilt, damn the torpedoes, "we're taking the country back to the good ol' days."

I often wonder, what were the "good ol' days" that these "Conservatives" in the 1980's wanted back?...Actually, they've never been particularly coy about it; they wanted a pre-1960's America, or better yet an 1890's to 1920s America ruled by the "Robber Barons" as Corporatists were known back then. So what if peasants died from lack of health care?!!1 So what if education was a privilege not a right; and so what if peasants had no collective bargaining rights, no workplace safety laws, no vacations, no days off (except Sunday) overlong hours that turned 40 year olds into old men, and child labour was considered just fine and dandy?!!!! Regulations, Taxes...who needs 'em? Certainly not Corporations for whom (yes, they actually have legal rights as "persons", MORE rights than ACTUAL persons if truth be told) Regulations and Taxes eat into their (unearned) profits.

As for "The Blacks" (as the Racist Du Jour--the thrice bankrupted Billionaire of the appalling Dead Weasel Hairpiece--likes to call African Americans); well, if the Conservatives can't have slavery back, the "good ol' days," they'll just be happy to have American Apartheid back if you please.

Well, 40 years later, after four decades of rolling back many of the democratic gains fought for over the previous century, we finally have an African American President. It has put everything back into a historical context (that most people have been hypnotized into somnambulance by their daily dose of Corporate Propaganda spewing from all forms of media, particularly the Telly) that most "respectable" Liberals laughed off as a Joke--a crazy Conspiracy Theory peddled by "Marxist" University Professors and whacked out hippie tree-huggers.

Well now the jokes on the "Respectable" Liberals. Us crazy "Marxists" and "Tree-huggers" were right all along...and we sure as hell aren't laughing about it. But the Conservatives are laughing...all the way to the bank. And they just LOVE how astounded all the silly "Respectable" Liberals look now that the Conservatives have come out of the Nazi closet as the flippin' racist, anti-semitic, women-hating, immigrant bashing, profit loving, theocrats that they are. No more silly smiles from soppy Liberals with their rose tinted glasses any more.

The "Bither" beast unleashed by the newly mainstreamed John Birch society, and by the Billionaire Koch Brothers' new and improved version of the JB Society, the so-called Tea party, has Mainstreamed the "Fringe" Ultra-Rightists. It is now considered a badge of honour for "mainstream" Conservative Politicians to pledge their troth to the Tea Party. Conservative Politicians, Pundits (and a certain billionaire, thrice bankrupted, with a dead weasel as a rather pathetically obvious hairpiece) have made it "Respectable" to hate everyone but Rich White Dudes (and their trophy wives) again.

Don't like a black President? Call him a racist!...or an Evil Muslim Communist ready to impose Sharia law!!! REALLY don't like the Afro Prez? All of a sudden "Mainstream" Republican Politicians are spouting the "Birther" Conspiracy line! And when that BS is knocked down by Obama's Birth Certificate...claim it might be faked. And start targeting the President's credentials. The Weasel Haired Billionaire (how do you still get to be a "successful" Billionaire after literally bankrupting three companies?) doesn't even flinch when called out on his lies. He magnanimously and gratuitously heaps praise and accolades upon himself for "forcing" Obama to show the original "long form" birth certificate...and then starts declaring that it sure is fishy how some lower class skinny black kid could possibly have enough brains to make it into Harvard when some Rich White Kids couldn't even get in (never mind that the MAJORITY of students at Harvard are STILL Rich White Kids). And like dutiful soldiers, the Conservative Pundits and Politicians start "wondering" aloud if this might be true..."show us his University records" they crow.

These cockroaches are crawling out from under their rocks and polishing their Swastikas and dusting off their Hoods.

It is now a "budgetary concern" to strip all Public Worker Unions of their bargaining rights in numerous sates with Republican Governors and legislative majorities. Some of these same Governors have granted themselves Dictatorial Powers to strip local elected officials of their authority by declaring them as "Financial Disaster Zones" under "Emergency Financial Martial Law," and placing an Appointed Administrator to run cities (and no doubt counties in the near future) by fiat.

Many of these same states are proposing (and passing) "laws" illegally OUTLAWING abortion, knowing that Pro-choice Activists don't dare to fight it in court while the Supreme Court is dominated by Right Wing Zealots itching to repeal Roe vs Wade.

Meanwhile, researchers and reporters are uncovering the links between Neo-Nazis, the Anti-Abortion "Activists," their Corporate funding, and "Mainstream" Politicians. It's interesting how The Turner Diaries--a Right Wing Race War Fantasy Story--seems to turn up on the bookshelves of Neo-Nazi, "Militia" Survivalist, and Anti-Abortion terrorists. While the Conservatives have Security Forces strip-searching everyone and beating the bushes looking for Communist Muslims, the Security agencies have little time or resources to focus on things like Clinic Bombings, Assassinated Doctors, and Mosque (and even Synagogue) bombings. Not to mention an abortive investigation into a Federal Building bombing (a "Lone Militia Nut? A fertilizer bomb? Please, sell me a new one).

The trial of the assassin who killed Dr Tiller is taking place in a state in which the Attorney General (now a County Prosecutor) kept trying--with the help of his Anti-Abortion buddies--to prosecute Dr Tiller for performing Legally Sanctioned medical procedures.

I don't need to beat to death all the violent threats of the Right Wing Politicians have made against Centrist Politicians (and the very few Liberal to Progressive politicians that still exist). The record of openly and publicly declared death threats by Conservative Politicians and Pundits is clear, and is unmatched in any other Western "Democracy."

If the FBI, the NSA, and every other agency under the Auspices under the Dept of Homeland Security, are actually doing their jobs without marching orders from their Right Wing Corporate owners, then why aren't all those politicians and pundits in jail? Here's another Big Fat Clue...Why isn't all of Wall St in jail for Fraud, Outright Theft, and Treason?

We all know the Truth, but some of us are afraid to speak of it, as if to speak of it will make it true. Well it's too late for that now...the Truth-that-cannot-be-named by cringing Liberals and Centrists is already here.

[Pettytyrant101]

I don't beleive my eyes! GB!! You're back! My cup of joy overflows at your return and my crabbit alarm explodes at your explanation of the end of civilization (or at least the good bits of it). But first welcome back! It has been too long, as is this sentiment for a crabbit old Scots hobbit, to suffice to say you have been missed.

Well if Holmes has three pipe problems your post was a three cup of tea one! I do miss a good long post to sit down too.
I happened to be sitting chatting with a friend with the news on in the background when we saw Obama showing off his birthcertificate, "They just won't be happy till they get him," my friend commented, meaning the Republicans and the Tea Party, "they just can't stand to see a black guy in the White House.' So I have to agree with you GB, its not like they are even bothering hiding behind the veneer of political correctness anymore, their disgust at being ruled by a non-white is evident for all to see. FOX news is a stream of suggestion and innuendo about Obama, seeking to undermine him in any way they can by subtle suggestion. It doesn't even matter if its all proved lies, the seeds get planted and if they're are enough of them and its constant then people start to believe. Humans like a narrative and a story we can follow and 24 rolling news exists by tapping into that, and the right wing news agenda is all about promoting the narrative 'we want the black man out. He is evil and against God.'
As before however I am still not convinced by your comic book like 'Legion of Dark Forces and Dodgy Hairpieces', there are of course a lot fo vested iintrests, and because of history, politics and racism a lot more of those vested intrests are against Obama than for him. But that does not suggest conspiracy or plotting, and where there are connections between groups they are more likely temporary marriages of convenence than anything more deep rooted, and will fall apart as easily as they join together.

Its hard to tell in Britain how bad things are by comaprison. I've been taken up politically more with next weeks Scottish elections (which looks increasingly likely to return a SNP government, possible even a majority one, quite a feat in a PR system if they do), so whilst cuts are coming in terms of budget from the Conservative/Liberal government, where the axe falls in public services is up to the Scottish government, and the Scottish agenda is far more socialist than the English, even still.
Its clear however from what is going on in the English health service, with budget being taken over by GP's and far more involvement of the private sector that the Tories are using the excuse of cuts to carry out many long held idealogical policies, policies they could never have got elected on. In fact they promised to protect the NHS in England and that there would be no top down restructuring of it, then they got elected and began a top down restructing of it.
Thankfully Health is a devolved issue, on the day the SNP passed into law free prescriptions for all the price of prescriptions in England went up to nine pound I believe.
-Damn! Just when I'm getting into a flow someone comes to the door. So good to have you back GB- boy do the liberal Tolkiens on here need your help- I think Ive turned them all to the Light of Puirty in your abscence.

[Ringdrotten]

I think GB just served you in the crabbit battle, Petty!

I won't pretend to know or understand everything in your post, GB, but there are those in Norway too who are very similar to those corrupt, racist a**holes you write about, so I know the kind. Selfish f***s. Anyway, glad to have you back, it has not been the same without you

[Gandalf's Beard]

Great response Petty, but I do think that you are missing the picture a wee bit.

Can you explain the difference between a "Marriage of Convenience" and a "Conspiracy." It all rather seems much the same to me. And generally works as follows:

The Rich (the vast majority of them) just want to get richer and more powerful and they hate everyone else and even cut each other's throats and clamber over the bodies of dead corporations to get to the top. Even So, The Rich still have to present a semi-united front to the "Peasants".

This means they must control every aspect of the government while maintaining a veneer of Democracy (though they're preparing for the day when they can chuck THAT altogether like their favoured Dictators Du Jour).

Alrighty then, what we essentially have in the US and the UK is a Conservative Party (the Democrats on this side of the pond) and a Nazi Party (the Republicans have given up nearly all pretense now). You lucky sods on your side of the pond have third parties who cling to whichever the "Big Two" needs sucking up to the most. These parties all represent the Rich (with a few honourable and notable exceptions), but they represent the dichotomy amongst the Rich. Some of the Rich feel a duty to treat their servants and the peasants a little kindly, and the other main group would rather just kill most of us and only keep a few prized servants and a few peasants to boss around and keep the servants from getting any...IDEAS!

The Rich use any number of means to "keep the Rabble in line" (particularly in ostensible democracies). At the Forefront is Religion and Propaganda. The Rich support Theocrats, and Theocrats support the Rich (Democrats have New Agers, liberal Anglicans and Liberal Catholics, Republicans pretty much have everyone else locked up)...a "Marriage of Convenience" no? Isn't such a "Marriage of Convenience" one of the defining aspects of "Conspiracy".

But it gets even more interesting and complex when we step away from the ruling classes, both Corporate and Religious. Lets take a look at the peasants (us). A good many of us (if not most) are fairly decent folk who just want to make a living and lead a decent life. But what if some of those "decent" folk live in smallish and parochial and particularly Conservative White Christian communities, and distrust them "City-folk" with all their strange ways of "Race Mixing" and their "Heathen" Religions. To these Conservative God-Fearing Rural Folk, Populism means they take care of their own and to hell with everyone else. Jews, "Blacks", Latinos, Native Americans, Gays, Tree-huggers, and edicated fellers like Professors (Socialist by definition eh?) need not apply.

And in this small rural township there are indeed a few minorities, and as long as them "furriners and darkies" know their place and kowtow to the White Man and put up with scorn and abuse there is little problem (this is also based on the Abrahamic Primal Religious Dichotomy--light good, dark bad). But these White Conservative Rural Folk are also deadly afraid. They are afraid that "The Blacks" will seek just retribution for all of those lynchings, black church bombings, Cross-Burnings, not to mention slavery, and an Apartheid that only just "ended" roughly 50 years ago (still goes on in many areas both Urban and Rural). They're REALLY scared because either them or their Pappies and Granpappies were the ones wearing hoods, burning churches and murdering "uppity" "Black-folk."

As the population grows, more and more "minorities" and "city-folk" start to move in. Now these God Fearing Christian White Folks are really getting scared. Add to this, an ancient need for the Men-folk to control "their" Women-folk and the rather literal reinforcement of selected parts of the Bible, and you have people who believe--with a violent religious fervor--that Abortion is Murder. Now if someone fervently believes that Murder is wrong, and that Abortion is Murder, and that Murderers deserve Capital Punishment...then in their eyes it might be appropriately called "Justified" Homicide. And indeed, more than a few Anti-abortionists have expressed these views including people who associated the Tiller Killer.

Some of this phenomenon isn't just limited to "ignorant" country-folk though. Many (mostly) white middle class communities in the suburbs who would look down on the country-folk are just as frightened as the "country folk." So frightened in fact, that they hide behind gated communities to keep out the people that don't...look...quite right. However, when their teenage daughters get pregnant they are generally very keen on keeping abortion safe and legal. It takes a lot of propagandizing from the Pulpit to peel off a few Suburbanites into the Anti-Abortion movement.

And this is just wonderful news to Right Wing of the Ruling Class. Their John Birch, KKK, Neo-Nazi, Fox News, and Tea Party Propaganda taps into those Primal fears of Black Men and minorities taking over the country by having lot's of babies while white babies are being murdered. So what do the Corporate Right do? Through back channels of undisclosed funding and a few retired military men the "Religious Nuts" get armed and organized into "militias," hearkening back to the days of the Klan.

A number of Journalists and Researchers including Stephen Singular and the Southern Poverty Law Center track the money, weapons, and personnel trails leading from one link in the chain to another. Groups like the NRA are convenient networking groups that link Anti-Taxers, Survivalist Militias, the Evangelical Anti-abortion Right, and outright Klansmen and Neo-Nazis.

It is not a coincidence that the man on trial for killing Dr George Tiller was in a Neo-Nazi group before joining an anti-abortion group, nor that he, like many white supremacists in the US, used the Turner Diaries as a blueprint for carrying out God's Plan. Nor was it a coincidence that Timothy McVeigh (ex-military) also read the Turner Diaries and had known links to these "Militia" groups. And most people in the Far Right milieu are deep into Anti-semitic, Anti Illuminati/Freemason, and ultimately Anti-Satanic Cult Conspiracy Theories peddled in the soft core version of Glenn Beck, and in the Hard-Core versions of Alex Jones, Jim Marrs, Dr Stanley Monteith, and Pat Robertson among many others.

Some of these Propagandists are SO Hardcore they portray Tolkien, CS Lewis, and JK Rowling as part of a Satanic Child Molesting Cult (which is all mixed in with the other garbage).

It IS hard to sort out the truly duped, from the original purveyors of these bogus Conspiracy theories. But in the end it makes little difference. The Birther/anti-abortion/Bircher/Tea-Party "Populists" is made up of people that don't feel duped because they believe that their Culture War interests are the same as the Right Wing Plutocrats; and for the most part their Cultural Ideals ARE aligned even if their Economic Interests are not. This was one of Reagan's handy tricks that wasn't available to Maggie in the UK.

Reagan united the Cultural Right with the Economic Right by claiming that the Federal Government was incompetent and took people's hard earned tax money for "special interests" while not revealing that those "special interests" were actually the Corporations and their owners. Of course this nifty little piece of sleight of hand made sense to groups of people that had no love for the Federal Government anyway (more than a few being from Civil War era Confederacy States). Thus they were fooled into believing that they actually have the same Economic Interests as the Ruling Class. "Marriage of Convenience"...or "Conspiracy."

As to Cultural Extremism from both the Corporatist and the Populist Right, they are hand in glove. Was it REALLY a coincidence or mere happenstance that Ronnie left a wreath of flowers on the graves of SS officers at Bitburg. "Marriage of Convenience"...or "Conspiracy"????

It would be as ridiculous as all those nutty Trans-historical Anti-Freemason/Illuminati conspiracy buffs to claim that there is one huge Five thousand year old Grand Conspiracy by a secret cabal of Elites from the dawn of civilization to make us all their slaves.

And yet there HAS been Five or Six Thousand years of a number of Rich/Powerful people through the ages conspiring to both maintain their wealth and create more by parasitically sucking the wealth from the peasants that performed the labour to create wealth from the natural resources. From the beginning of the God-Kings of Egypt and the Near and Middle East, to the era of the Divine Right of Kings , and on to the Divine Right of the Mercantile/Banking Classes from the Revolutionary Era through today (Royal Families were forced to go with the programme to survive).

There have been thousands of "Marriages of Convenience" and "Conspiracies" over thousands of years to maintain the Divine Order: The people create wealth, and the Rich take it and rule above their "subjects" with a Divine Template built into their Cosmology/Ideology. Economics, Politics, Gender and Race roles are all based on Religious Beliefs. Alliances are forever shifting, but Class Interests trump internecine warfare. The Wealthy Owning/Ruling Class will nearly always unite to quell dangerous rumblings of democracy and rebellion among the "Peasants" (all the rest of us). Also, in an era and/or nation which has a middle class, the middle-classes will often take the side of the Rich, hoping that one day, they might become rich themselves.

When this happens it is quite understandable that some will mistake Hegemony for a Grand Conspiracy. And many factions of the Ruling Class gleefully provide the gullible with bits of truth, distorted and wrapped in layers of lies in order to both divide the populace among themselves, and to position oneself in a more powerful position than his/her opponent.

Only the Propagandist or the Dupe will maintain that it is all One Giant Conspiracy. This is how to distinguish a bogus conspiracy from quite real ones that happen every day, some trivial, some not so much, those that are exposed and prosecuted in our Judicial Systems (in which a minor player usually takes the fall), those that remain hidden, and those that are so audacious that no-one can miss the Truth-that-must-not-be-named.

PS: Petty, I know that You know a lot of what I'm on about, but I'm hoping that this lengthy post will both clarify my position and let you in some stuff that is unique to American political alignments and divisions.

PPS: Thanks Ringdrotten . Cheers to you too. There are yobbos and louts in every country that think they are the Super-Race, and there is nearly always a sizable faction of the Ruling Class to egg them on, and to give them the means to create havoc, at which point that Super-Nasty faction of the Ruling Class generally seizes power

[odo banks]

Now, now, GB, I know you must have been storing things up awhile, but your Tirading has blossommed like a nuclear mushroom! And I just have to say, how could any group with a cosy name like "The Tea Party" be evil in any way? It's against all reason and I just won't have it!

(((((What have I done? I was hopin' he'd come back all sugar and spice... )))))

[Gandalf's Beard]

What...did you really think I'd reappear all fluffy Bunnes, Kittens and Rainbows Odo???

I've got 2 or 3 months of rage stored up . I have returned as Gandalf the White Beard...and in the words of Gimli, I'm now a lot crankier than the "old" Gandalf's Beard (Hmmm, must double-check my avatar to make sure it's the right one).

Funnily enough they called themselves the Tea Party because they despise tea and anything to do with respectable beverages. They imagine themselves after fore-runners of the US American revolution. You might have heard of something called "The Boston Tea Party." A bunch of propertied men didn't feel the need to pay Tariffs on the East India Company's products. So they dressed up as Native Americans (one of the first False Flag (aka Provocateur) operations of the Birthing Nation, clearly hoping that the Natives would be blamed), raided the East India Company's ships and dumped all their Tea in the Harbour.

Was it a strike against Corporate Greed? I have no love for the many harms the East India Company had caused to numerous populations globally, but sadly I think that version of the events and motivations were nothing but a fiction. Most US History Books (yes, even the sanitized ones) see this as a Strike against British Rule and the taxation thereof. Yet even THAT Motive rings a bit hollow. Of course the Gentried Colonialists didn't want British Rule.

As with a number of British "colonies" in the colonial era, the purpose of the British Empire was not to occupy huge areas of land and displacing the indigenous peoples by force. Their motives were both more devious and more humane than the New American's. Britain did not want to spread beyond the original 13 colonies, but rather to have another beach-head for the East India Company to penetrate markets, extract resources and labour, without having to do all the heavy lifting that a full scale occupation would have required (it was easier just to pay the local authorities a fat sum to keep their own people in line.. The British Empire was largely a Trade Empire (with most of the trade being a one-way street to be sure). And yes, violence was often ruthlessly applied against any who rankled under the British Yoke.

But the British had something that many of the New American Elite did not: a sense of duty, a paternalistic concern to bring "Civilization" to the "Savages", and last but not least, the British could be shamed when their cruelties were exposed to the general public.

The New Americans were equally crafty, but blunt and far more ruthless, and lacked any sense of shame (in that way, much like the Germans of the latter 19th and early 20th centuries. They sought to conquer and enslave or simply exterminate every Native American on this continent and have all the resources and land for themselves without having to pay taxes to a King across the Atlantic. A sizable Faction of the Founding Fathers weren't the least bit interested in Democracy; they wanted to make George Washington the United States first King.

Though cooler heads and ideals won the day, the writing on the wall of a NEW Corporate Empire to be carved out of the US and then the world was clear as a bell.

It's also worth noting, even briefly, that most "regular folk" (i.e. neither Rich nor Propertied) did not want a revolution. They had no reason to die for a few Rich Merchants and Idealist Intellectuals. They weren't the ones paying the Tariffs, and they figured that living under new "Rich Blokes" wouldn't be any better than living under the rule of the old "Rich Blokes" (and it turns out they were more correct than they could have possibly imagined).

The UK made many Leaps and Strides towards Democracy, Labour rights, women's rights,abolition of slavery,and the creation of a hybrid social economy that made some allowances for Wealth and Personal Property Rights, but taxed them far more highly to pay for a Proper Democracy, one that actually benefited the majority of the people--those in every class benefited to varying degrees (unfortunately many of the Landed Gentry weren't quick enough on the uptake and weren't learned in liquid assets and lost their estates due to high taxations--poor sods, makes me weep it does). More leaps and bounds from the 19th century to the middle of the 20th century than any US American shifts, which were more like a lurch forward followed by several steps backwards.

It is beyond Ironic then that today's Tea Partiers are either agents or dupes of the Billionaire Koch Brothers who founded and funded this incarnation of "The Tea Party." The alleged birth of a "Democracy" now looks like a hollow promise, and the Modern "Tea Partiers" are hoisting their petard on a distorted view of US American history.

GB

[odo banks]

Well may that be, GB, but admit this, the The Tea Party do sound like a respectable bunch... at least, they seem to be implying they are respectable ... and surely that's more important than the trivialities you mention! I mean, a few eggs need to be broken to make an omlette... and perhaps a few lies promulgated, so as to preserve respectability -- And who the darn hell in their right minds could criticise that --- in the circumstances --- taking into account the Bigger picture.......... and all....... They're mostly Moral Majority Christians, remember, and that should count for something!

[Pettytyrant101]

Is this a conspiracy I see before me? Or is it a marriage of convenience?
The fault is more mine than yours GB perhaps, its just the way you put all these groups together under grand titles like the 'Ruling Elite' it gives me the impression there is an evil bilionare version of Tracy Island somewhere, with a big round table where all these different groups met to plan how to take over the world (in my mind its headed by Pinky and the Brain). I guess what I'm saying is that the differece between the two is one implies a coherent startegy, planned and adhered to and the other mere opportunism. The results in the short term might be much the same but not over a long term.
For me the whole thing comes back to fundamentals- there is x amount of wealth and y amount of people. Whats the best way to use x for the benefit of y?
And it seems there are only ever 2 real options.
Option A - a ruling group controls x and doles it out in equal amounts to y- Communism in other words. The problem with that is that it stagnates economies, it greatly reduces innovation (with nothing to gain by risk why take risks?) and the ruling group nearly always end up corrupt and keep most of x for themselves at the exepnse of y. And to make it work law must be enforced absolutely (ie in practise brutally).
Option B - a ruling group encourages independant enterprise to use x for the benfit of y. Private companies create x and the bits of y that can afford the result benefit- captialism. The problem with it is that x ends up in the hands of a tiny minority of y and the rest have to scrape around trying to live of whatever remains. Taken to its extreme (as in the US model) even basic needs like health, housing and food supply is entirely given over to the market dynamic. Laws can be more flexable (in practise money talks and the law can be 'got around').
Now I don't like either system particularly, but I am damned if I can conceive a working third alternative. In those circumstances the best to hope for is a middle ground between the two, and checks and balances put into systems to prevent the extremes being reached. In other words leave the markets to take the risks in investment and get their big pay outs, but maintain a decent safety net for the vulrenable in society- a socialist model really, but more central ground than traditional socialism.

As to Empires I was always under the impression that prior to the Tea Party incident Americans were proudly British, and would have claimed British as nationality (understandable really wanting to be attached to the largest Empire the world has ever known). But Empires seem to learn a bit more about how to do it with each one that comes along. The Romans came up with the ingenius idea of wooing the subjecated people with consumer goods and luxury items, the British took this a step further and delibretly set out to vastly improve (from a British perspective) the countries they took over, building railways, post offices, schools, creating a police force, all using local people. The US take on Empire seems to be to get all the wealth and resources from a country, but rarely have to set foot in anyone elses country- in a sense the US model is closer to the old Roman model of puppet regimes. The British Empire had puppet regimes but not as a preference, it was more usual to try to reshape a conquered country in the image of the British Parliamentry system and to employ large numbers of locals to do so. The result was that Britain could run a country of millions with only a few thousand men fairly succesfully for quite a time. The US has also taken the old woo them with goods and culture to new heights by being the main Empire of the Information Age. America has used propaganda, the American Dream, more delibrately and to greater effect than any previous Empire, to such a degree they can have influence in countries where they have no official representation at all.
Much as I instinctively hate the whole heridetary system it is on balance probably better than the US alternative. At least with a proper upper class there is a sense of histroy, of a continued line, this acts as some measure of a check on behaviour. A family name can be associated with certain actions or deeds and that can be bad for them, so some responsibilty tends to be taken on by the rulng class if only to keep their own names untarnished.
That and I would rather a monarch as Head of State than a politician. A Monarch acts as a lightning rod for religion, drawing it away from the political world where it has no business. The Queen can say 'God bless the UK' becasue its part of all the ceremony surrouding her, its just like the crown, another bit of popm- but aside in its own box marked 'royalty'. PM's don't say it because the Monarch can do it for them- and I think thats a good thing overall. Of course Monarchy is also a powerful psychological tool -as the imminent Royal Wedding attestifes too. The power of story again- a Commoner marries her Prince- and two billion people want to see it happen. The 'people' get to forget about losing jobs, wars and all the rest and take part in a mass real life fairy story for a day and Britain gets to still pretend for a day its a huge world power again.

Another long reply! But it was in response to two long posts in my defence!! And so much more as always that could be said!

[Gandalf's Beard]

I'm way too tired tonight (and I'm a very slow 2 fingered typist) to respond to your whole post in one go. But that's Okay, as I feel your first paragraph is the most relevant one to respond to in regards to actually achieving a realistic understanding how Political/Economy works in a world run by Billionaires.

It's not that you are wrong per se, it is that you don't same to recognize the implications of your own words. Your sentences reveal to me a sort of cognitive dissonance you are trying to wrap your head around For example:

I guess what I'm saying is that the differece between the two is one implies a coherent startegy, planned and adhered to and the other mere opportunism. The results in the short term might be much the same but not over a long term.

Here you juxtapose and present two possibilities, that in your mind are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth. And in one of those possibilities "mere opportunism," you place the qualifier "mere" in front of "opportunism," as if opportunism were totally divorced from the conscious act of actively seeking opportunities to exploit. This then suggests that you hold the position (that I am sure you will agree is patently ridiculous) that "opportunists" are sleepwalking through life and acting purely on instinct with no conscious control of their Desire to Acquire (a position to which some Sociologists who seem to have acquired their credentials without actually studying sociology actually do believe). As I said, this is a Prima Facie ridiculous position to hold, and as a response to Conspiracy "Theory" it instead offers the Somnambulist Theory, or as I prefer to call it the Zombie Theory of Political/Economy.

Alternatively, other Sociologists (on marginally firmer ground than the Zombie Theorist Sociology Professor) will suggest that the Institutional Systems are what drives the Opportunistic Motivations of Ruling Elites (and note, that even the worst woolly-headed sociologist would not be so stupid as to insist that the "Ruling Elite" as a distinct Class with Class interests do not exist at all). So, Sociologist B has an Institutional Theory of how Political/Economy works--and it is true, that Institutional Factors affect the decision making processes of the Ruling Class as a whole and as individuals.

But what Sociologist B (willfully in my opinion) refuses to address, is that these people in the Ruling Class are in fact not merely actors on a stage with pre-ordained lines and no Will to resist Institutional Demands, but indeed the Ruling Class are The F****** Stage Designers and Directors. In other words, yes, Institutional Demands act on the Individual and Collective consciousness of the Ruling Class, but The Ruling Class are also acting upon the Institutions.......Consciously (I mean for Christ's Sake, these M*****F****** WRITE the God-damn Rules that the Institutions Operate under)!!!!!!!! Thus, my own pet terms for this purposefully truncated Analysis, is The Hand of God Theory, or The Cog in the Machine Theory of Class and Class Power. Once again, Sociologist B's analysis is nearly as poorly constructed as Sociologist A's, but at least Sociologist B has 1/2 a leg to stand on. And once again, I am certain you will agree that this analysis leaves a lot to be desired.

Now, there are OTHER Sociologists that roll their eyes at Sociologist A and wonder how the hell Sociologist A ever managed to get a Degree in Sociology, much less a Doctorate required to actually teach it. So what happens when Sociologist C (after rolling their eyes at the drivel Sociologist A is spouting) now meets with Sociologist B? Hair and clothes rending Frustration that someone of Obvious Intellectual Ability has willfully blinkered themselves, stuck their fingers in their ears chanting la la la la la la to avoid the Obvious--and Truthful--Analysis: That Individuals and Groups in the Ruling/Owning Classes are both acted upon by Institutional Demands and Limitations, And ALSO act upon those Institutions to make them more amenable to their own interests...and with CONSCIOUS intent.

This is so F****** Obvious that i don't know why there's even any debate on this issue. Holy Crap! Didn't Henry the 8th change a whole bloody institution just so he could keep having wives and divorcing them instead of having to take the trouble to chop their bloomin' heads off??? He decreed the Church of England to Separate from the Catholic Church for HIS OWN INTERESTS. Now that, my friend, is some SERIOUS Institution Altering Power.

Update the Institution Altering Power of the Ruling/Owning Classes to modern times, and there is no f****** doubt about their Institution Altering Powers. The evidence is smothering us. It's all over the telly, in every Newspaper and magazine, coming at us from every AM Talk-Radio station, and emblazoned on thousands of web-pages across the internet. What is in the News these days?...Reports that Right Wing Politicians are working Very Hard (and succeeding) at Altering Institutions to MAXIMIZE THEIR BLOODY OPPORTUNITIES.

That, my friend, is the sound of your pair of apparently Mutually Exclusive Notions-- A) Actively Planning, Colluding, and Conniving to create a Coherent Strategy to destroy Institutions that eat into Profit Margins. And B) "Mere" Opportunism--colliding, imploding, and reborn as the Mutually Complementary PLANNED OPPORTUNISM.

Which brings us to the other key portion of your cognitively dissonant opening paragraph: Your (unintentional) misreading of posts and claiming that I am saying The Exact Opposite of what I ACTUALLY said:

The fault is more mine than yours GB perhaps, its just the way you put all these groups together under grand titles like the 'Ruling Elite' it gives me the impression there is an evil bilionare version of Tracy Island somewhere, with a big round table where all these different groups met to plan how to take over the world (in my mind its headed by Pinky and the Brain).

I quite agree with the first part of your sentence...the fault is indeed your "fault" more than mine . In fact, your "impression" is not at all based on anything I wrote, but rather your own imaginings drawn from Cartoon and creepy Spy Thriller stereotypes. I believe I said something more like this:

As to Cultural Extremism from both the Corporatist and the Populist Right, they are hand in glove. Was it REALLY a coincidence or mere happenstance that Ronnie left a wreath of flowers on the graves of SS officers at Bitburg. "Marriage of Convenience"...or "Conspiracy"????

It would be as ridiculous as all those nutty Trans-historical Anti-Freemason/Illuminati conspiracy buffs to claim that there is one huge Five thousand year old Grand Conspiracy by a secret cabal of Elites from the dawn of civilization to make us all their slaves.

And yet there HAS been Five or Six Thousand years of a number of Rich/Powerful people through the ages conspiring to both maintain their wealth and create more by parasitically sucking the wealth from the peasants that performed the labour to create wealth from the natural resources. From the beginning of the God-Kings of Egypt and the Near and Middle East, to the era of the Divine Right of Kings , and on to the Divine Right of the Mercantile/Banking Classes from the Revolutionary Era through today (Royal Families were forced to go with the programme to survive).

There have been thousands of "Marriages of Convenience" and "Conspiracies" over thousands of years to maintain the Divine Order: The people create wealth, and the Rich take it and rule above their "subjects" with a Divine Template built into their Cosmology/Ideology. Economics, Politics, Gender and Race roles are all based on Religious Beliefs. Alliances are forever shifting, but Class Interests trump internecine warfare. The Wealthy Owning/Ruling Class will nearly always unite to quell dangerous rumblings of democracy and rebellion among the "Peasants" (all the rest of us). Also, in an era and/or nation which has a middle class, the middle-classes will often take the side of the Rich, hoping that one day, they might become rich themselves.

When this happens it is quite understandable that some will mistake Hegemony for a Grand Conspiracy. And many factions of the Ruling Class gleefully provide the gullible with bits of truth, distorted and wrapped in layers of lies in order to both divide the populace among themselves, and to position oneself in a more powerful position than his/her opponent.

Only the Propagandist or the Dupe will maintain that it is all One Giant Conspiracy. This is how to distinguish a bogus conspiracy from quite real ones that happen every day, some trivial, some not so much, those that are exposed and prosecuted in our Judicial Systems (in which a minor player usually takes the fall), those that remain hidden, and those that are so audacious that no-one can miss the Truth-that-must-not-be-named.

Now I know it's not as Pithy as your misconstruction of my commentary. But as you can now plainly see, my commentary is precisely the opposite of what you thought you read.

However, the cheeky stereotype intended to wither a "Conspiracy Theorist" into a stricken silent cocoon trembling at the wit of his Verbal Opponent, contains more than an element of Truth--Not in the Bogus Overarching Grand Conspiracies reaching back Thousands of Years (though it could plausibly be argued that Religious Institutions themselves embody this description), but in the settings that you apparently find implausible.

I can imagine you chuckling now about your witty remark about meeting rooms with Round Tables. "Oh...bosh...utter rubbish. People don't actually meet secretly in ROOMS seated about a Round Table and plan out how to undermine democratic institutions in order to further their own interests. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...what a sap. What have you been smoking? Pass it over and let me have a couple of puffs."

And I imagine laughing along with you at your clever witticism, passing you the bong and opening another bottle of Buckie. After a significant pause with a bemused expression on my face as my eyes lock on to yours, I respond with this Gut-Buster:

"Well, where do you think Corporate Executives, Majority Shareholding Billionaires, High Ranking Military Officials, Lobbyists, and Politicians meet to exchange ideas, money, and discuss plans of action (assuming that seeing the errors of your ways that you now agree with me that Sociologist C was indeed correct) to undermine democratic institutions and maximize their profits? While Hang-gliding perhaps, Bungie Jumping, Mountain Climbing? Of course they meet in rooms seated around tables: Board Rooms, Mansion Rooms, Hotel Convention Rooms, White House Rooms, Congressional Rooms, Country Club Rooms. And guess what, some of those rooms actually have...GASP...Round Tables. And guess what else, they even have their own fancy resorts, no outsiders or reporters allowed (the Bohemian Grove, somewhere about a hundred or so miles North of me is one well known Retreat for the Well Connected)."

"And what the Hell, they actually DO meet on the Golf Course, Tennis Courts, and Hunting Trips. And among the more active of them (the younger ones that is, the old ones mainly stick to golf courses and hunting trips), some actually do discuss business and make deals while Skydiving (It's a great way to size up the person you're dealing with). My God, George Bush Sr Sky-dived on his f****** 85th birthday for crying out loud. Do you think...could it be possible....that some of his Well Connected and Wealthy friends might have actually...discussed...you know...Business...on his birthday? Perhaps a money-making deal here, a politician buying deal there, maybe making a date to meet in earnest with some of his Compatriots later, to discuss how best to undermine the Obama administration and his Wussy Faction of the Ruling Class?"

You look a little less certain now that your coup de grace, was either a coup, or particularly graceful. But hold on, Aha...you have a Eureka moment . You've got a zinger, a trump card, one that will surely kibosh my Tin-foil hat "theories."

"But this is only in one country right? They don't make Secret Plans Globally, meeting with the Leaders, and the Corporate Fat Cats of other countries! I've got you on the ropes now Ol' Beard." you say. I smirk at you again.

"Maybe you've heard of the G8 or G12 summits they hold regularly. You know,those meetings that are closed to the press but are usually picketed by Thousands of angry protesters and News Anchors speculating about rumoured leaks? No! What about the Trilateral Commission, a regular meeting of the Creme de la Creme from Europe, the US, and Japan discussing who knows what secret plans, and arguing, perhaps even factional infighting? No! How about the IMF...the International Monetary Fund, it's a vast banking network of International Bankers, all of whom have their hands in many industrial and political pies. They loan money to poorer countries at excessive interest rates, and when the country fails to meet a due date, the IMF force that country to enact Austerity Measures, cut social spending, devalue their currencies, and allow greater Market Penetration of the International Corporations. You've heard of THEM right..right? Who do you think is pushing for Austerity Measures in the US and the UK right now?"

"And we haven't begun to discuss NAFTA and GATT, Free Trade Agreements drawn up by International Corporations and Their Servile Politicians. These Trade agreements trump local laws like safety, environmental, and labour laws that are deemed to be hindering the International Corporations' rights to "fairly" plunder the local Resources and Labour."

"And let me continue by pointing out that Everyone owns a piece of everyone else. Yes, Virginia, there really IS a Global Plutocracy. Deutsche-bank owns huge shares of some US Pharmaceutical Companies. British Banks and Corporations are so entangled with US Banks and Corporations, there is no real way to distinguish many of them. BP and other British Oil Companies own huge shares of US Oil Companies, and the reverse is also true. Halliburton (Dick Cheney's Company) was just as responsible for destroying the Gulf of Mexico as BP, but because BP was ostensibly in charge of that particular operation, they get hammered in the press (and quite rightly too) while Halliburton barely gets a mention (quite unfairly)."

"This is why the US and the UK have all the same Wars together. Arm in arm, they go marching around the Globe trying to access oil, or prevent China or Russia from accessing the oil." I take a breather. And then you miserably mumble something that sounds a lot like: "But I thought you said there wasn't a Big Grand Conspiracy."

I laugh, but not unkindly. And then I point out that so much of this interconnectedness of the many Corporations, Banks, and Billionaires around the globe is so overt that it can't really be defined as a Conspiracy. They're doing most of this Colluding right out in the open. There's little need for secret Conspiracies when Sovereign Nations have so altered their laws that the Criminal Activities of Businesses and Bankers has been Legalized. I can't recall a single Wall Street Banker being put in prison for the Largest Swindle in the World which collapsed so many Markets. Instead, after robbing us blind, they get rewarded by more of our money to "bail them out." And that's just not enough.

"We Rich Folk need a Trillion dollars in Tax Breaks and another Trillion in Subsidies" they holler, while funneling money to outrageous groups like The Tea Party to try and whip up some enthusiasm among the populace to f*** themselves by paying for those Tax Breaks and Subsidies with the destruction of Medicare, the Demolition of Social Security, the Immolation of Medicaid, the Crippling of the EPA, the FDA, the Department of Education, the department of Workplace safety, and numerous other government agencies that have the function and obligation to look after the PUBLIC INTEREST.

In conclusion, I have pointed out that Rich Folk use EVERY means at their disposal to increase their wealth and power while diminishing ours; openly through manipulating our democratic laws and institutions, and covertly when they cannot. They collude to start wars for profits from arms sales and oil, or to prevent a rival power from profiting from those markets and resources, and indeed these are very real Conspiracies, but so carelessly carried out that most intelligent people can smell another lie cooked up as an excuse to go to war. Libya? Why not? We never really liked Gadhafi anyway, but most important, we can't allow China's Oil Deal with Gadhafi to close.

I have also pointed out that there numerous factions inside the "Ruling Class." And quite often, murderous conspiracies are carried out--not against the Peasants--but against each other in the battle to be the One on Top. There is NO One Grand Conspiracy.

Don't be confused by terms that refer to a group of people as a whole (i.e. the Working Class, the Middle Class, and the Ruling Class). These terms have no bearing on "Conspiracies" whatsoever. They are simply handy tools for the sociologist to refer to the roles large and small groups play in society.

But sometimes REAL tin-foil hat wearing kooks and propagandists pretend or believe that these sorts of terms are Proof of a Five Thousand Year old Monolithic Conspiracy.

Finally, I would like to say that not all millionaires and billionaires are EVIL like the Cheneys, the Bushes and Donald Trump. Some of them actually do give a crap about the planet they live upon and the people they share it with. George Soros, Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates ain't such bad folk--they give generously to good causes and support some of the least conservative politicians. I know this is true because the Right Wing Fascists hate them so much.

And in previous posts I have pointed out that I am not including (most) Hollywood Stars, Rock Stars, Famous Authors, Directors, Artists, and Sports Stars who have made a fortune doing things that bring the rest of us a lot of joy. I do not begrudge these Millionaires a single dime--unless they use it to support Anti-Democratic activities.

GB

PS: Petty, I know you wrote a lot more stuff that may or may not be debatable, and which you might rather discuss. But I (a two finger typist who edits and re-edits on the fly) have to get some sleep occasionally. To me this was the most important point to hammer home. Nothing else really matters unless we make ourselves perfectly clear. And sometimes Pithy Responses confuse rather than illuminate.

[Gandalf's Beard]

I'm way too tired tonight (and I'm a very slow 2 fingered typist) to respond to your whole post in one go. But that's Okay, as I feel your first paragraph is the most relevant one to respond to in regards to actually achieving a realistic understanding how Political/Economy works in a world run by Billionaires.

It's not that you are wrong per se, it is that you don't seem to recognize the implications of your own words. Your sentences reveal to me a sort of cognitive dissonance you are trying to wrap your head around For example:

I guess what I'm saying is that the differece between the two is one implies a coherent startegy, planned and adhered to and the other mere opportunism. The results in the short term might be much the same but not over a long term.

Here you juxtapose and present two possibilities, that in your mind are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth. And in one of those possibilities "mere opportunism," you place the qualifier "mere" in front of "opportunism," as if opportunism were totally divorced from the conscious act of actively seeking opportunities to exploit. This then suggests that you hold the position (that I am sure you will agree is patently ridiculous) that "opportunists" are sleepwalking through life and acting purely on instinct with no conscious control of their Desire to Acquire (a position to which some Sociologists who seem to have acquired their credentials without actually studying sociology actually do believe). As I said, this is a Prima Facie ridiculous position to hold, and as a response to Conspiracy "Theory" it instead offers the Somnambulist Theory, or as I prefer to call it the Zombie Theory of Political/Economy.

Alternatively, other Sociologists (on marginally firmer ground than the Zombie Theorist Sociology Professor) will suggest that the Institutional Systems are what drives the Opportunistic Motivations of Ruling Elites (and note, that even the worst woolly-headed sociologist would not be so stupid as to insist that the "Ruling Elite" as a distinct Class with Class interests do not exist at all). So, Sociologist B has an Institutional Theory of how Political/Economy works--and it is true, that Institutional Factors affect the decision making processes of the Ruling Class as a whole and as individuals.

But what Sociologist B (willfully in my opinion) refuses to address, is that these people in the Ruling Class are in fact not merely actors on a stage with pre-ordained lines and no Will to resist Institutional Demands, but indeed the Ruling Class are The F****** Stage Designers and Directors. In other words, yes, Institutional Demands act on the Individual and Collective consciousness of the Ruling Class, but The Ruling Class are also acting upon the Institutions.......Consciously (I mean for Christ's Sake, these M*****F****** WRITE the God-damn Rules that the Institutions Operate under)!!!!!!!! Thus, my own pet terms for this purposefully truncated Analysis, is The Hand of God Theory, or The Cog in the Machine Theory of Class and Class Power. Once again, Sociologist B's analysis is nearly as poorly constructed as Sociologist A's, but at least Sociologist B has 1/2 a leg to stand on. And once again, I am certain you will agree that this analysis leaves a lot to be desired.

Now, there are OTHER Sociologists that roll their eyes at Sociologist A and wonder how the hell Sociologist A ever managed to get a Degree in Sociology, much less a Doctorate required to actually teach it. So what happens when Sociologist C (after rolling their eyes at the drivel Sociologist A is spouting) now meets with Sociologist B? Hair and clothes rending Frustration that someone of Obvious Intellectual Ability has willfully blinkered themselves, stuck their fingers in their ears chanting la la la la la la to avoid the Obvious--and Truthful--Analysis: That Individuals and Groups in the Ruling/Owning Classes are both acted upon by Institutional Demands and Limitations, And ALSO act upon those Institutions to make them more amenable to their own interests...and with CONSCIOUS intent.

This is so F****** Obvious that i don't know why there's even any debate on this issue. Holy Crap! Didn't Henry the 8th change a whole bloody institution just so he could keep having wives and divorcing them instead of having to take the trouble to chop their bloomin' heads off??? He decreed the Church of England to Separate from the Catholic Church for HIS OWN INTERESTS. Now that, my friend, is some SERIOUS Institution Altering Power.

Update the Institution Altering Power of the Ruling/Owning Classes to modern times, and there is no f****** doubt about their Institution Altering Powers. The evidence is smothering us. It's all over the telly, in every Newspaper and magazine, coming at us from every AM Talk-Radio station, and emblazoned on thousands of web-pages across the internet. What is in the News these days?...Reports that Right Wing Politicians are working Very Hard (and succeeding) at Altering Institutions to MAXIMIZE THEIR BLOODY OPPORTUNITIES.

That, my friend, is the sound of your pair of apparently Mutually Exclusive Notions-- A) Actively Planning, Colluding, and Conniving to create a Coherent Strategy to destroy Institutions that eat into Profit Margins. And B) "Mere" Opportunism--colliding, imploding, and reborn as the Mutually Complementary PLANNED OPPORTUNISM.

Which brings us to the other key portion of your cognitively dissonant opening paragraph: Your (unintentional) misreading of posts and claiming that I am saying The Exact Opposite of what I ACTUALLY said:

The fault is more mine than yours GB perhaps, its just the way you put all these groups together under grand titles like the 'Ruling Elite' it gives me the impression there is an evil bilionare version of Tracy Island somewhere, with a big round table where all these different groups met to plan how to take over the world (in my mind its headed by Pinky and the Brain).

I quite agree with the first part of your sentence...the fault is indeed your "fault" more than mine . In fact, your "impression" is not at all based on anything I wrote, but rather your own imaginings drawn from Cartoon and creepy Spy Thriller stereotypes. I believe I said something more like this:

As to Cultural Extremism from both the Corporatist and the Populist Right, they are hand in glove. Was it REALLY a coincidence or mere happenstance that Ronnie left a wreath of flowers on the graves of SS officers at Bitburg. "Marriage of Convenience"...or "Conspiracy"????

It would be as ridiculous as all those nutty Trans-historical Anti-Freemason/Illuminati conspiracy buffs to claim that there is one huge Five thousand year old Grand Conspiracy by a secret cabal of Elites from the dawn of civilization to make us all their slaves.

And yet there HAS been Five or Six Thousand years of a number of Rich/Powerful people through the ages conspiring to both maintain their wealth and create more by parasitically sucking the wealth from the peasants that performed the labour to create wealth from the natural resources. From the beginning of the God-Kings of Egypt and the Near and Middle East, to the era of the Divine Right of Kings , and on to the Divine Right of the Mercantile/Banking Classes from the Revolutionary Era through today (Royal Families were forced to go with the programme to survive).

There have been thousands of "Marriages of Convenience" and "Conspiracies" over thousands of years to maintain the Divine Order: The people create wealth, and the Rich take it and rule above their "subjects" with a Divine Template built into their Cosmology/Ideology. Economics, Politics, Gender and Race roles are all based on Religious Beliefs. Alliances are forever shifting, but Class Interests trump internecine warfare. The Wealthy Owning/Ruling Class will nearly always unite to quell dangerous rumblings of democracy and rebellion among the "Peasants" (all the rest of us). Also, in an era and/or nation which has a middle class, the middle-classes will often take the side of the Rich, hoping that one day, they might become rich themselves.

When this happens it is quite understandable that some will mistake Hegemony for a Grand Conspiracy. And many factions of the Ruling Class gleefully provide the gullible with bits of truth, distorted and wrapped in layers of lies in order to both divide the populace among themselves, and to position oneself in a more powerful position than his/her opponent.

Only the Propagandist or the Dupe will maintain that it is all One Giant Conspiracy. This is how to distinguish a bogus conspiracy from quite real ones that happen every day, some trivial, some not so much, those that are exposed and prosecuted in our Judicial Systems (in which a minor player usually takes the fall), those that remain hidden, and those that are so audacious that no-one can miss the Truth-that-must-not-be-named.

Now I know it's not as Pithy as your misconstruction of my commentary. But as you can now plainly see, my commentary is precisely the opposite of what you thought you read.

However, the cheeky stereotype intended to wither a "Conspiracy Theorist" into a stricken silent cocoon trembling at the wit of his Verbal Opponent, contains more than an element of Truth--Not in the Bogus Overarching Grand Conspiracies reaching back Thousands of Years (though it could plausibly be argued that Religious Institutions themselves embody this description), but in the settings that you apparently find implausible.

I can imagine you chuckling now about your witty remark about meeting rooms with Round Tables. "Oh...bosh...utter rubbish. People don't actually meet secretly in ROOMS seated about a Round Table and plan out how to undermine democratic institutions in order to further their own interests. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...what a sap. What have you been smoking? Pass it over and let me have a couple of puffs."

And I imagine laughing along with you at your clever witticism, passing you the bong and opening another bottle of Buckie. After a significant pause with a bemused expression on my face as my eyes lock on to yours, I respond with this Gut-Buster:

"Well, where do you think Corporate Executives, Majority Shareholding Billionaires, High Ranking Military Officials, Lobbyists, and Politicians meet to exchange ideas, money, and discuss plans of action (assuming that seeing the errors of your ways that you now agree with me that Sociologist C was indeed correct) to undermine democratic institutions and maximize their profits? While Hang-gliding perhaps, Bungie Jumping, Mountain Climbing? Of course they meet in rooms seated around tables: Board Rooms, Mansion Rooms, Hotel Convention Rooms, White House Rooms, Congressional Rooms, Country Club Rooms. And guess what, some of those rooms actually have...GASP...Round Tables. And guess what else, they even have their own fancy resorts, no outsiders or reporters allowed (the Bohemian Grove, somewhere about a hundred or so miles North of me is one well known Retreat for the Well Connected)."

"And what the Hell, they actually DO meet on the Golf Course, Tennis Courts, and Hunting Trips. And among the more active of them (the younger ones that is, the old ones mainly stick to golf courses and hunting trips), some actually do discuss business and make deals while Skydiving (It's a great way to size up the person you're dealing with). My God, George Bush Sr Sky-dived on his f****** 85th birthday for crying out loud. Do you think...could it be possible....that some of his Well Connected and Wealthy friends might have actually...discussed...you know...Business...on his birthday? Perhaps a money-making deal here, a politician buying deal there, maybe making a date to meet in earnest with some of his Compatriots later, to discuss how best to undermine the Obama administration and his Wussy Faction of the Ruling Class?"

You look a little less certain now that your coup de grace, was neither a coup, nor particularly graceful. But hold on, Aha...you have a Eureka moment . You've got a zinger, a trump card, one that will surely kibosh my Tin-foil hat "theories."

"But this is only in one country right? They don't make Secret Plans Globally, meeting with the Leaders, and the Corporate Fat Cats of other countries! I've got you on the ropes now Ol' Beard." you say. I smirk at you again.

"Maybe you've heard of the G8 or G12 summits they hold regularly. You know,those meetings that are closed to the press but are usually picketed by Thousands of angry protesters and News Anchors speculating about rumoured leaks? No! What about the Trilateral Commission, a regular meeting of the Creme de la Creme from Europe, the US, and Japan discussing who knows what secret plans, and arguing, perhaps even factional infighting? No! How about the IMF...the International Monetary Fund, it's a vast banking network of International Bankers, all of whom have their hands in many industrial and political pies. They loan money to poorer countries at excessive interest rates, and when the country fails to meet a due date, the IMF force that country to enact Austerity Measures, cut social spending, devalue their currencies, and allow greater Market Penetration of the International Corporations. You've heard of THEM right..right? Who do you think is pushing for Austerity Measures in the US and the UK right now?"

"And we haven't begun to discuss NAFTA and GATT, Free Trade Agreements drawn up by International Corporations and Their Servile Politicians. These Trade agreements trump local laws like safety, environmental, and labour laws that are deemed to be hindering the International Corporations' rights to "fairly" plunder the local Resources and Labour."

"And let me continue by pointing out that Everyone owns a piece of everyone else. Yes, Virginia, there really IS a Global Plutocracy. Deutsche-bank owns huge shares of some US Pharmaceutical Companies. British Banks and Corporations are so entangled with US Banks and Corporations, there is no real way to distinguish many of them. BP and other British Oil Companies own huge shares of US Oil Companies, and the reverse is also true. Halliburton (Dick Cheney's Company) was just as responsible for destroying the Gulf of Mexico as BP, but because BP was ostensibly in charge of that particular operation, they get hammered in the press (and quite rightly too) while Halliburton barely gets a mention (quite unfairly)."

"This is why the US and the UK have all the same Wars together. Arm in arm, they go marching around the Globe trying to access oil, or prevent China or Russia from accessing the oil." I take a breather. And then you miserably mumble something that sounds a lot like: "But I thought you said there wasn't a Big Grand Conspiracy."

I laugh, but not unkindly. And then I point out that so much of this interconnectedness of the many Corporations, Banks, and Billionaires around the globe is so overt that it can't really be defined as a Conspiracy. They're doing most of this Colluding right out in the open. There's little need for secret Conspiracies when Sovereign Nations have so altered their laws that the Criminal Activities of Businesses and Bankers has been Legalized. I can't recall a single Wall Street Banker being put in prison for the Largest Swindle in the World which collapsed so many Markets. Instead, after robbing us blind, they get rewarded by more of our money to "bail them out." And that's just not enough.

"We Rich Folk need a Trillion dollars in Tax Breaks and another Trillion in Subsidies" they holler, while funneling money to outrageous groups like The Tea Party to try and whip up some enthusiasm among the populace to f*** themselves by paying for those Tax Breaks and Subsidies with the destruction of Medicare, the Demolition of Social Security, the Immolation of Medicaid, the Crippling of the EPA, the FDA, the Department of Education, the department of Workplace safety, and numerous other government agencies that have the function and obligation to look after the PUBLIC INTEREST.

In conclusion, I have pointed out that Rich Folk use EVERY means at their disposal to increase their wealth and power while diminishing ours; openly through manipulating our democratic laws and institutions, and covertly when they cannot. They collude to start wars for profits from arms sales and oil, or to prevent a rival power from profiting from those markets and resources, and indeed these are very real Conspiracies, but so carelessly carried out that most intelligent people can smell another lie cooked up as an excuse to go to war. Libya? Why not? We never really liked Gadhafi anyway, but most important, we can't allow China's Oil Deal with Gadhafi to close.

I have also pointed out that there numerous factions inside the "Ruling Class." And quite often, murderous conspiracies are carried out--not against the Peasants--but against each other in the battle to be the One on Top. There is NO One Grand Conspiracy.

Don't be confused by terms that refer to a group of people as a whole (i.e. the Working Class, the Middle Class, and the Ruling Class). These terms have no bearing on "Conspiracies" whatsoever. They are simply handy tools for the sociologist to refer to the roles large and small groups play in society.

But sometimes REAL tin-foil hat wearing kooks and propagandists pretend or believe that these sorts of terms are Proof of a Five Thousand Year old Monolithic Conspiracy.

Finally, I would like to say that not all millionaires and billionaires are EVIL like the Cheneys, the Bushes and Donald Trump. Some of them actually do give a crap about the planet they live upon and the people they share it with. George Soros, Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates ain't such bad folk--they give generously to good causes and support some of the least conservative politicians. I know this is true because the Right Wing Fascists hate them so much.

And in previous posts I have pointed out that I am not including (most) Hollywood Stars, Rock Stars, Famous Authors, Directors, Artists, and Sports Stars who have made a fortune doing things that bring the rest of us a lot of joy. I do not begrudge these Millionaires a single dime--unless they use it to support Anti-Democratic activities.

GB

PS: Petty, I know you wrote a lot more stuff that may or may not be debatable, and which you might rather discuss. But I (a two finger typist who edits and re-edits on the fly) have to get some sleep occasionally. To me this was the most important point to hammer home. Nothing else really matters unless we make ourselves perfectly clear. And sometimes Pithy Responses confuse rather than illuminate.

[Pettytyrant101]

Obviously I failed to make myself clear enough GB, as you have taken umbrage at something in error. My 'pithy' comment was not a witty barb, I was agreeing with you, pointing out that when I read such overarching terms I associate it with a comic book style image of evil conspiracy- contary to what you yourself actually mean by the term. I was only sharing a witty comment not attacking with it.

I think we can agree there is a Ruling Class made up of the powerful and wealthy across the globe, even if we disagree about how it works.
I have never seen the fact meetings are held in secret as proof of wrong doing. There can be many reasons why it is best to do things behind closed doors, not least because these days every word uttered in public by a politician has to be a guarded one, and sometimes to get things done you need to speak plainly. And then there are security issues, if you wish to discuss defence issues with other nations you do not want to do it in public which may put your civilian population at risk. Thee are legimate reasons for secrecy, to assume instinctively that such meetings are being used to coordinate the grabbing of more personnal power or wealth by a Ruling Class seems a bit fantasy to me.
You sight Bush and Cheney. And they are good examples of opportunist groups coming together (and they represent of course just the tip of the iceberg of interests that grew about those two) and they enlisted Blair. But did Blair sign Britain up out of some pact with Bush to maintain a ruling group? Or did Blair sign up becasue of misguided religous faith and the long term financial benefits he saw for UK business in securing oil deals? I think the latter. It was about oil, it was about money and it was also about God (at least for Blair). But it was not about maintaing the ruling class. It came about because the energy demands in both countries were such that all predictions showed a huge increase on buying resources from other countries, Iraq being one of the main ones, and that would mean giving Saddam and his sons an increasingly large amount of wealth and therefore power. Even an armchair strageist such as myself can see thats a poor position to be in. Is it not part of the duty of an elected leader to strive to maintain, and ideally increase, the standards of living of the citizen? If so then it would be folly to walk eyes open down a path you know gives increasing power to a violent dictator and which will increase drain on the countries finances to do it.
And here is the double standard of the West. And I am as guilty of it as any. I believe in a fair world, with no slaves, a living wage for all and society providdng help for those who cannot help themselves. But I also like my tv and my pc and my xbox and having a decent place to live and everythig else that goes with living in an affluent western country- and I can only get that at the expense of others. So whilst I thought the war in Iraq was illegal and a blatant attempt to steal resources- I will be perfectly happy to make use of those resources and would be complaining if they were to be taken away.
So for me Iraq is a good example of a war which happened for all the right and all the wrong reaosns at the same time (I define right as being the expected actions of the ruling class to protect the countries interests). It involved various groups with their own agendas who saw a mutual benefit in coming together to prosecute it, but those agendas were not necessarily in accord.
We have an underlying problem which is that we expect our ruling class to protect and provide and in order to do that bad things often happen. The solution, if there is one, lies in the enforcment of International Law, which means an International Police Force, Court System, and Punishment. To hold the ruling class of countries to account. But I can't see that happening any time soon.

[odo banks]

This is all so reassuring somehow; you know, Mr Tyrant and GB having long discussions that are way beyond my comprehension (and probably theirs as well). It's like when I was a child listenning late at night to the grownups waffling on all night while I snuggled up on the rug in front of the fire going to sleep. It never mattered back then that I didn't have a clue what the grownups were yapping about, it was just so comforting knowing they were there, and now we have GB here again with Mr Tyrant, waffling-waffling-waffling, where they belong, at home in Forumshire... brings a tear, it do...