Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Eldorion]

Bloody hell, GB is back! Yippie kay yay, m*****f*****!

It's good to see you again, old Beard!

[odo banks]

I fear GB has come back bigger and far more virulent than ever. I suspect that's Celebrity for you, Eldorion. Oh well, it could be worse; I mean, for all his ranting and raving, at least he's back, and let's face it, there's only one GB, Iluvatar Bless Him (-- my goodness, no else will!)

[Eldorion]

When he's in his moods GB has always been able to give Petty a run for his money for Most Crabbit. It's just that Petty is always in his moods....

[Gandalf's Beard]

Thanks for the warm welcome back Eldo.

Sorry to be brief but I must respond to Petty.

Well, I'm VERY glad that we agree that:
A) The "Ruling Class" is a real thing.
B) They meet in secret and they make deals and seek opportunity out of the sight of prying eyes.

But you still seem reluctant to admit the cold hard facts. And frankly, I'm surprised that someone as Crabbit as you can display a level of naivete unbecoming of a True Scot.

Now, I know you didn't intend any harm with your off-the-cuff remarks at the beginning, but they--as you have just admitted--display a lack of understanding of the lengths the "Ruling/Owning Class" will go to maintain and improve their status. I will remind you of a post I made some months ago in which I made a Pithy Comment which you seemed to agree with at the time. I can't recall the precise language I used, but it went something like this:

There are at least 2 main groups in the the Ruling Class: the Real Nasty ones that just bend us over and screw us, and the ones that are nice enough to lube us up before they screw us.

As I mentioned, their have been some in the "Ruling Class" that take their Stewardship more dutifully and seriously than others. In the US FDR, the Kennedy Brothers, and Jimmy Carter (and even LBJ) are some of the first that spring to mind. FDR has been hated passionately by the Ultra Fascists at the time for his audacity to begin a program to look after the frailest, and poorest among us; but the Ultra-Right did not seem to have the power at the time to be too blatant about their disregard for the Peasants and for those of the Ruling Class that actually believed that we should be done right for performing the labour that makes them wealthy. After all, Unionism and Class Resentment was ascendant at the time, and they realized that if they openly stomped on the Populace a full scale Revolt would take place and the country would go to the Socialists. So they played it coy for a while, but they still did everything they could to put roadblocks i front of FDR's plans.

You should watch Michael Moore's movie Capitalism: A Love Story. He managed to find a long lost film reel of a speech that FDR had intended to make to the People before he croaked. That film reel never saw the light of day or shown, until Michael Moore dug it up. In the speech, FDR lays out his plan for setting up a Social State not dissimilar to that which arose in the UK. So of course it was immediately buried. Neither wing of the Ruling Class was willing to give up that much--it was too much like Socialism for them to bear.

We all Know what happened to the Kennedy Brother's for daring such things as dismantling the CIA and "scattering it to the winds," for not backing up a plan to invade and occupy Cuba (again), for issuing orders to pull out of Vietnam before everything went to hell, for attempting to do away with American Apartheid, for attempting to complete the task that FDR had begun etc. Two brothers were assassinated, and one narrowly escaped the attempt on his life,but his girlfriend didn't.

Terrified at the cold-bloodedness of the Uber-Right, most "Liberal" elites did not dare to attempt anything like the Kennedy brothers had done. Except for LBJ whoat least managed to complete the task of Civil Rights, and shoring up the Social Contract. But never again would any "Liberal" Elite dare to question the foreign policy of the Military Industrial Complex. This terminology was coined by another who took Stewardship seriously: Eisenhower, who warned the American people of the overarching power of the Corporate Security State.

Jimmy Carter was the last Democrat--and member of the Ruling Class himself--to attempt to make the necessary changes to the US's Foreign and Domestic Policies. It might have looked suspicious to assassinate another Democratic Politico/member of the Ruling Class. So instead, the Ultra-Right made a deal with the Iranians to keep the hostages till after the election of Ronald Reagan. This effectively smeared Jimmy Carter. And the "Democrats" have been playing defense ever since.

In the UK and the US in the early 90's after over a decade of Conservative Rule, the "Liberals" moved to the Centre to regain power. They called it "triangulation". And on both sides of the pond Triangulation worked...for the Ruling Class as a whole. Clinton and Blair opened their arms to the "Military/Industrial Complex", and agreed that they would carry on the Right Wing Foreign Policy and Domestic Policy to some degree. All they asked in return was to put the brakes on the rush to destroy the Social Contract. But it was still Tax cuts for the Rich, and an aggressive foreign policy. Clinton and Blair allowed the Uber-Fascists to destroy Yugoslavia, the last Democratic Socialist State in Europe (the other European nations,for all of the Right's attempts to paint them as "Socialist" countries, are Social Democracies, that is to say Corporatists were allowed to control the means of Production, but they were limited in their powers by Strong Social Contracts.

After Yugoslavia, the US election was stolen by the Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld combine--i.e. the public faces of the Military/Industrial complex.

Now here's whare things get interesting, and the historical record flies in the face of your attempt to put a positive spin on Tony Blair. Having never been a real "Liberal" to begin with, he had no problem making nice with the Cheney administration. Particularly as they shared they same Military Policy and SHARES IN THE SAME OIL COMPANIES. So before bleating about how Tony Blair wasn't such a bad guy, he was just bullied into going along with the SECRET PLAN to re-invade, and take over for good, Iraq. All they needed was a good excuse.

9/11 was that excuse. Now we know that both factions of the Ruling Class were more or less on the same page--the Conservatives and the Ultra-Conservatives. Obama has continued the aggressive US Foreign Policy and much of the same Domestic Policies--Tax Cuts for the Rich, and a Republican Health Care Plan. But by this time, the Republicans had come out of the Fascist Closet, and pilloried Obama for enacting a REPUBLICAN HEALTH CARE PLAN that forces everyone to purchase Corporate For Profit Health Insurance and a sort of Voucher System for those too poor to afford Private Health Care Plans--a voucher system that in fact will never actually provide enough money to actually purchase a decent Insurance Plan.

On your side of the Pond, with the continued Ascendancy of the Nazi Party in the US, the Conservatives pulled a fast one on the UK public, stole an election with the help of the "Liberal Democrats" (insert sneer here), and have got busy having a go at trying to catch up with the US's dismantling of The Social Contract.

So, son't tiell me that the Uber-Rich Ruling Classes don't have it in for the rest of us, because (with a few exceptions) that is utter rubbish. There is no longer any Progressive Party in England that will stand up to maintain a Social Democracy, and no Progressive Party in the US to stand up to slow down the already dismantled Social Contract.

I am not at all sanguine about Obama's "line in the sand" speech promising to stop the the Destruction of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The Ship has already sunk; that train has come and gone. While the Rich get picked u from the wreckage of the Titanic by their Private Yachts, the rest of us are left treading icy water looking for a piece of Flotsam to grasp and keep us afloat.

Obama's "line in the sand" speech was that piece of Wreckage that we in the US are clutching to.

It's time to strip away any vestiges of Faith that the Ruling Class isn't out to get us Petty. The number of Progressives in the Ruling Class are now far to few to stop the Juggernaut of the Corporate Fascist Security State.

I've tried for too long to hold out any hope myself. I held out hope myself that maybe Obama really WAS a "Secret Socialist." No such luck.

Don't be fooled Petty. The Conservatives aren't as nasty as the Nazis, but while the Conservatives just don't really care for your well being, the Nazi's who are now running the show are out to KILL you. They have no compunction against murdering their "own"people. I guarantee that if any rebellions occur in the UK and the US as they are in the Middle East, the response will be just as bloody.

GB

[Pettytyrant101]

Perhaps GB it is location that is the difference in our views on this.
You live somewhere this stuff is very real, and all around you- or so I take it form your posts. I live in a socialist country (largely) with some things, like water, still nationalized, free health care for all, free prescriptions, eye tests, free education for all, free travel anywhere for pensioners, winter fuel payments to the elderly and the poor. Scotland is on the cutting edge of renewable energy resources, leading the way in wave power technology. Hell we we even freed the worst terrorist our country has ever known- the Lockerbie bomber- because he was terminally ill (I know he was freed for oil deals, but that was England and the US- the genius of the plan was that Scotland would free him on genuine grounds and so no paper trail) but the fact is I live in a country where feeling sorry for even the worst sort of person is written into our law.
So I don't feel like I am living in a world of dark shadows and plots against the people. Yes through our continued connection to Westminister we are attached to the bigger picture, but hopefully cutting that last cord is only a matter of time, and the more to the right, the more captialist England becomes the further it moves away from Scotland, until eventually the two will be incompatable completely.
I am somewhat hopeful for the future. I hope for a world of small countries, free, democractic, with a socialist base in caring for those who need it who can interact through diplomacy and the rule of Internatinal Law. And whose people through modern communiations come to understand one another and stop dseeing each other as enemies.
Big hope I know, but its far prefrable to the alterantive of a world controlled and ravaged by an elite few.
And the whole point of being crabbit is not to despair, its to rail against what is wrong in the hope it will be better in the future. Crabbitness is like a zen form of anger- its ultimate aim is its own nonexistance!


To throw a different subject in, you may not have noticed but there was a Royal Wedding yesterday.
Described by some wag somewhere as 'A wedding you paid for but weren't invited to.'
So Brit members was it worth the expense for the free advertising of brand UK? Or did we just all get stiffed for the bill for the wedding of some of the richest people in the country? And, for GB, is this simply the Ruling Class using symbolism and propoganda to keep the plebs in line during a time of austerity?

[Kafria]

First of all - I'll add my voice to the others, it is great to see you back GB and I was kept occupied catching up with the debate today.

Onto the royal wedding, on a personal note I really enjoyed yesterday. I should qualify this by saying that I had not watched/read or followed any of the build up, I am not into this obssesive royal watching that the media and some of the public seem to think should be overtaking the country. As it was a friend (with a suitably large house and garden) hosted a buffet/garden party type thing, we all arrived in time to see the procession and then the wedding (notable for the fact that the kids and dads were mostly absent or poping in and out while mothers happily sat and watched the whole thing), had lunch and then popped back in to see the kiss and later the drive back to Clarence house.

This is relevant for the fact that of the party was a French lady. When the number of people supposed to be watching around the world was mentioned one of the women suggested that it was unlikely that many in other countries would be that interested, just as another royal families wedding would be unlikely to draw a telly audience in this country. This was robustly contradicted, in France she said that it was this royal family that was the one that was important to them and went onto say that for all we talk about the American obsession with the royals the conitnent has been equally obsessed with our royal family since at least the time of Diana too. This suggested that in terms of a publicity and tourism advertising stand point it might have been worth it.

(another piece of information is that when the president got married, there was no coverage, no prior notice, the info was simply released the day after!)

I think it is a little unfair to suggest that it could ever really have happened any other way, even Edward and Sophie, who desperately wanted a quiet, private wedding couldn't have a completely private do and had to have some elements of coverage to appease the vocal masses! With many who support or at least don't actively want to disband the royal family William is increasingly suggested as a possible to be the next monarch, if Charles can or will be bipassed. In this position there is a certain amount of expectation on what was going to happen! Bearing in mind the history of Diana and the media, Williams protection from the press at St Andrews and the sense you get of him accepting he can't escape from his 'duty' but being determined to have a relatively private life I would say that for him and Kate if they didn't have to do it this way then they wouldn't have done!

Maybe it's just me being a soppy girlie, but it was lovely to watch two people getting married (and laugh at a number of the fashion choices)

[odo banks]

You may be a girlie girl, but I love a romance myself, Kafria. In many girls (both old and young) is a little Princess, even in these hard headed times. Just as in most boys there is a little Prince. Kate and William is (nearly) everyone's personal little fairytale writ large. My wife was my princess on our wedding day. My little girl was a princess too, until she became a teenager - and difficult! Loved the wedding! Wasn't Kate's dress just divine - and Pippa's too! The bride is always the center of a wedding --- and thank goodness William played his role so nicely, never really distracting us from the Bride! (I wonder if William is a descendant from the female or male line...from Aragorn, that is?)

[Wisey Banks]

Yes --- a lovely bit of romance... nought better!

[Tinuviel]

If you haven't heard, apparently some troops shot Osama in Pakistan today, and brought him back into Afghanistan, and his body is in American custody. I don't know the details, but I'm a little disturbed how glad people are that he's dead. That he was killed. Like his death will stop the war
Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but what DID killing Osama accomplish?

[Eldorion]

I've been following this on CNN and elsewhere for a while, but I'll just leave a brief link.

Osama bin Laden is dead.

[Eldorion]

You're right that this won't end al-Qaeda or end the War on Terror or anything, but I think there's an immense sense of catharsis. 9/11 was a really traumatic and even generationally defining moment for a lot of people, and this seems to bring closure to a lot of people. And there is a sense that getting the person responsible for the attacks was the just thing to do.

Also, moved since this isn't Hobbit news. And I'd like to pre-emptively ask that we not have any 9/11 Truther conspiracy theory discussion in this thread.

[Saradoc]

It may well bring closure for 9/11, many will feel that now justice has prevailed.

Now this is a little bit of speculation now, but really, did Pakistan honestly not know he was hiding in a complex 100 yards away from a large military academy? There has been talk of Pakistan's intelligence agency of maintaining ties with militants targeting U.S. troops in Afghanistan, because of this Pakistan and US relations must have hit an all time low. So I'm asking if someone was proving support for him, who, along with how many others, and was Pakistan's intelligence service protecting him?

As said, this won't end the war on terror- Bin Larden was mainly a symbolic figure on the run, and has been for years now- his deputy, his mentor has been the active one, it remains to be seen how much of a impact this will have on al-Qaeda. Then there is still Afghan Taliban leaders who are also probably hiding on in Pakistan, but it is a good start!

[Saradoc]

I've been following this on CNN and elsewhere for a while, but I'll just leave a brief link.

Osama bin Laden is dead.

It's really turning out to be quite a jubilant week isn't it? First the Royal Wedding, then my arch-rival football team getting relegated, and now the death of Bin Laden!

[Pettytyrant101]

Assuming its true- couldnt help notice this passage-

'US officials said Bin Laden was shot in the head after resisting.
US media reports said that the body was buried at sea to conform with Islamic practice of a burial within 24 hours and to prevent any grave becoming a shrine.'

So no proof in other words.
And 'after resisiting?'- Last I heard Bin Laden was a very ill man with kidney dialasis. Exactly how resistent could he be?

[Pettytyrant101]

Was he really behind 9/11? Was he really masterminding raids globally? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't- but America have made sure we will never find out, or find out how much the US and other Western countries were culpable at the start when Al Qaeda were our friends- no body, and more importantly no trial, no justice seen to be done- this is not a good day for democracy or the rights of the individual- this was an ill man hunted down and shot without trial.

[Eldorion]

My guess is that the primary resistance was from bodyguards. Perhaps Osama had a gun on himself, though I think you're right that he probably wasn't running around like Rambo.

That said, I suspect the U.S. forces wanted to kill him in the field rather than capture him, though that's just speculation.

[Saradoc]

My guess is that the primary resistance was from bodyguards. Perhaps Osama had a gun on himself, though I think you're right that he probably wasn't running around like Rambo.

That said, I suspect the U.S. forces wanted to kill him in the field rather than capture him, though that's just speculation.

Well it is what they are saying on the BBC news, a reporter has just said that Bin Laden wouldn't let himself be captured, and maybe the US didn't want him captured either, and that it was a "kill mission" not a mission for him to be captured.

The resistance was limited, I don't think there were even any US casualties.

[Pettytyrant101]

If reports of his health a year or so ago were anywhere near accurate he would most likely have been in a bed hooked up to a kidney machine. Hard to imagine why he would require being shot in the head rather than captured. Although it fits well enough with the official version where Bin Laden is some sort of Bond villian.

"Wouldn't let himself be captured?"- so are they implying he shot himself? If not that doesn't explain why they had to shoot him. Is says he wouldnt let himself be captured, not that it was impossible to capture him. I smell something very fishy and its not just Ringdrotten grilling kippers.

add- just read this on the BBC news page-

'The forces conducting the operation later emerged from the compound, possibly with somebody who had been inside, local residents told the BBC.'

So is he really dead? Let the conspiracies begin! GB where are you?

[Eldorion]

News reports have already stated that two women, at least, were injured, and would thus have to be led out of the compound somehow. I can really do without more conspiracy theories.

Saradoc - I've heard that there were no U.S. casualties as well. The BBC says that the U.S. forces shot the man they believed to be bin Laden (who was later confirmed to be OBL and then buried at sea within 24 hours) twice in the head after he refused to surrender.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am still not sure what the 'official' reason for having to shoot him is. They shot him because he would not surrender- then why not capture him- if he is the mastermind behind several atrocities he should have been tried in front of the world at the Haig. I see little justice here, only vengeance.

[Eldorion]

I am still not sure what the 'official' reason for having to shoot him is. They shot him because he would not surrender- then why not capture him- if he is the mastermind behind several atrocities he should have been tried in front of the world at the Haig. I see little justice here, only vengeance.

You don't see justice in killing the leader of a paramilitary organization that willfully and repeatedly slaughtered innocents around the world? If he was a common criminal I would sympathize with your complaint, but the rules are different in combat.

[Pettytyrant101]

"the leader of a paramilitary organization that willfully and repeatedly slaughtered innocents around the world?"- Eldo

I don'know that. And now I never will. I have been told it but there is a world of difference between being told of someones guilt and what they are actually guilty of. That is why we have a legal procedure and laws, courts and juries. And that system extends all the way from civil courts up to international courts. Bin Laden should have been tried in public, his crimes proven or not proven, and his sentence given. And for no other reason than history he should have been allowed to put his side of it on record.

Killing a man because you 'know' he is guilty without the need for any trial or even hearing is the start of a very slippery road Eldo. It also gives unnecessary credence to conspiracy theories by casting doubt on the motivations of those who killed him- people around the globe have enough doubts in the US as it is without giving cause for more.

[Saradoc]

Bin Laden was a terrible man who committed unforgettable crimes, but is it good that so many Americans are agreed with this "vengeance?" His death is only a symbolic victory being celebrated, not celebrated because justice has been done, but because they feel vengeance has been carried out. I feel it would have been much fairer if he was tried by a legal system and not killed, but maybe that wouldn't have been as good for Obama's popularity.

[Pettytyrant101]

BBC is now reporting that the order was to kill Bin Laden not to capture him. So it was an execution.

[Eldorion]

You still don't seem to realize that enemy military leaders should not necessarily be treated like "ordinary" criminals. The reality of war is that armies try to kill each other, and high-profile commanders are especially targeted.