Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Saradoc]

[quote="Saradoc"]

There seems to be a distressing amount of times recently when I've felt I should come on here and say a word of sympathy for some poor souls hit by calamity. And here we go again with the earthquake in Japan and the tsunami's following.
So far casualties seem to be at the lower end for such a thing, terrible still for the few but better than many. Japan at least has experience at this and buildings designed to cope which seems to have helped. Although how anything can be designed to cope with the wall of water that followed I don't know. Hard when watching the footage not be somewhat awe struck at the sheer relentlessness of it. We truly are nothing compared to the powers at work in the universe we live in.

I spent an entire Geography lesson today watching BBC news with the rest of my class & teacher, and the videos that we saw really were horrific. They do as mentioned have some precautions when it comes to building design but these earthquake-resistant features are limited and only found in the cities-nothing could protect the coastal regions-but there really is nothing you can do when faced with a Tsunami anyway, I agree. Efficient evacuation is all I can think of, as well as good early warning systems. We can't stop nature, but we can try to limit the damage. The death toll of course could rise dramatically once the full effects of the Tsunami are, potentially most of the pacific is in danger. Brings back memories of the 04 Indonesia disaster, but hopefully Japan will be better prepared to deal with after-effects this time.

[Pettytyrant101]

Reactors going pop, footage of tsunamis that almost defy belief and misery on a catastrophic level-its too much to take in. How to comprehend a world in which you get up in the morning and by evening everything and most of the people you ever knew are gone.
Now I can get a reasonable explanation for all that has happened, tectonic plates, water displacement etc- but for the religious minded of you out there how does this sort of thing work- what's the reasoning used? Is God just unspeakably cruel and callous? I can't imagine that's what they say from the pulpit so what is the reasoning?

[Kafria]

As more of the footage comes out this seems more and more unreal, yet is heartbreaking!

I spent some of my time this morning with one group who wanted to go over some of the science, including one student who wanted to see what the sea retreat before the wave was like. The only footage I could find came from 2004. I scanned it first and only showed the kids two 10 second clips as it showed wave hit and people in the water, but brought a real sombre mood to me (not the kids it has to be said, who being young in a lot of cases just don't seem to connect with the reality of it)

I will not try and predict the pulpit response to this, I will simply keep those affected in my thoughts

I find our insaitable appetite for the footage a strange one, I always find it unsettling to watch clips of those who are no longer with us. I know it is good that truth is seen, but sometimes wonder if we now too often cross the line into disaster voyerism? ( the images of jumpers from the two towers still haunt me) I ceertainly felt this way when the bbc, not content with footage of the wave also showed footage of two children (no more than seven) screaming and crying in fear, the point at which I stopped watching the telly and started using the internet to keep upto date.

[Pettytyrant101]

i sympathise Kafria. I saw a bit on Sky News earlier where they were trailing a programme on the Tsunami- complete with ominous music score, screams and edited clips of dramatic moments-it was done exactly like a Hollywood blockbuster trailer- I too switched off at that point, surely that is stretching the appropriateness of the word 'news'.

[Ringdrotten]

Like Petty, I wonder how religious people can explain (or worse, try to justify) disasters like this one. And Japan, you'd think they had suffered enough. I always find it hard to comment such matters, as I am never able to find the words, be it Norwegian or English, to describe how terrible they are. Speechless

[Saradoc]

Reactors going pop, footage of tsunamis that almost defy belief and misery on a catastrophic level-its too much to take in. How to comprehend a world in which you get up in the morning and by evening everything and most of the people you ever knew are gone.
Now I can get a reasonable explanation for all that has happened, tectonic plates, water displacement etc- but for the religious minded of you out there how does this sort of thing work- what's the reasoning used? Is God just unspeakably cruel and callous? I can't imagine that's what they say from the pulpit so what is the reasoning?

I went to church on Sunday. The main gist of the preacher was that the world is mortally damaged and in an irreversible decline. I clearly remember him saying "We should be praising God of all the disasters he prevents". According to him it was Man's fault that these disasters were happening because we're all sinners. Following that was the speech about how all human being are the same-sinners in God's view, then said inside we're all as bad as Hitler, well we all have the potential to be as bad as Hitler anyway. Then the whole "this reminds us God is still there- we should be lucky we still have the chance to reach God etc etc" thing.

I disagreed with the preacher entirely-the Japanese earthquake had no relation to how good or bad the people were, it was the fact that they were on the edge of a destructive tectonic place, the force of which caused a Tsunami. He seemed to imply that every natural disaster was a message or a warning from God, and it was sent to people could re-evaluate their lives. To me it was just fate, it seems unlikely that God would choose Japan to help ease the world's population, good people died, bad people died.

There is some tragic footage, this is the worst huge earthquake to happen in a developed country with lots and lots of CCTV around. It's even more poignant than 9/11 for me, as I was only a small child at the time, and like you pupils Kafria, it went a bit over my head. I'm just hoping by the time I sit my geography exam on Tectonics, that this is still the freshest incident, in which has been a very deadly year.

[Pettytyrant101]

Mmm seems to me youR Preacher was saying they deserved it for being sinners. Not exactly an optimistic religion Christianity (assuming it was a Christian preacher).
So because some women ate an apple she shouldn't children, babies and good people have to die in natural disasters?
Call me picky but that's not the sort of God I find very encouraging. A crazy, grudge holding mass murderer. Whose defence for His actions is not unlike that of a serial wife beater- she was asking for it!

[Kafria]

I went to church on Sunday. The main gist of the preacher was that the world is mortally damaged and in an irreversible decline. I clearly remember him saying "We should be praising God of all the disasters he prevents". According to him it was Man's fault that these disasters were happening because we're all sinners. Following that was the speech about how all human being are the same-sinners in God's view, then said inside we're all as bad as Hitler, well we all have the potential to be as bad as Hitler anyway. Then the whole "this reminds us God is still there- we should be lucky we still have the chance to reach God etc etc" thing.

This horrifies me! At this point I am going to restate that I am a christian (I know, a scientific one, there are more of us than you might think!)

Quotes like those above are one of the reason I have such a hard time with my faith and talking to others about it. I just want to agree with you Saradoc that he is totally wrong and I actually believe that the vast majority of compassionate christians would feel the same. The physical world operates within the laws of nature. To use this to suggest otherwise is crass in the worst sense.

Call me picky but that's not the sort of God I find very encouraging. A crazy, grudge holding mass murderer. Whose defence for His actions is not unlike that of a serial wife beater- she was asking for it!

Cross posting, but wanted to respond, by saying this is not the god I believe in either!

[Pettytyrant101]

Excuse me for asking Kafria- and feel free to not to respond to it, your beliefs are your own after all- but if the Preachers view; it is punishment for sin and a reminder to pay heed to God is not true, then what is the reasoning for those of you with belief?
You seem to be implying a natural world which obeys rules of its own and a God separate from it, or have I got you wrong?

[Kafria]

I would definately say that there is a natural world that obeys rules of its own, my scientific belief determines this. I find God and what that means/ encompasses diffcult to put into words, but I'll try.

I believe in the god who gives us two things, grace and mercy.
Grace - a gift we don't deserve through our actions - (in simple terms heaven and everlasting life, although again someting I have difficulty defining)
Mercy - not recieving that which we deserve - (simplistic terms again, but the just deserts of our baser human natures).

Based on those two ideas I don't hold with a vengeful God, one who sends disasters to punish or give people a time to reflect and repent. Underpinning this is the idea that God gave us free will, to choose to follow or not, as opposed to being a dictatorial figure (not sure this is the right turn of phrase, but the best I can do right now). 'Sins' are in the most part things we do that hurt each other and so should be avoided.

From this perspective I find it incredibly hypocritical the way many christians conduct themselves and attack others (extreme views). I have always found it strange how some christians split sin into big and little sins (ones that we commit, repent and so things are alright, like being selfish etc and big ones that christians don't do..)

I take the view that to judge is not my place, I try to treat others with compassion, and like us all fail on occasion, human nature being what it is! (Let he who is without sin and all that).

In light of this, events we have seen recently for me are of the natural world and what os left as a christian is the compassion for those affected and a desire to find out what I can do to help, however little that may be!

Some of this may seem a little confused (the scientist, who believes, but not in the vengeful, rightous God), it comes from the fact that although I can see all the logic that explains why God doesn't/may not exist (I enjoy the historical debates on the evidence and origin of the bible too!) and while I would not presume to try to prove that existance either, I have accepted that I believe, simply because I do!

[Pettytyrant101]

Thanks for that response Kafria. It seems to me that your views are in keeping wiht many in our (on the surface) secular society. Less regard for old books and the words of men in dresses and more an undefined sense there has to be more to life than just the rules of nature.
God without the religion in a sense.

I too love a good Bible debate- I managed to get two Jehovah witness to make their excuses and leave last time they visited debating the origins and morality of the Bible. (For some reason they particularly had a hard time arguing why, if before Original Sin everything lived in harmony, God had made so much of it with big pointy teeth and the musculature system required for hunting and killing- when I pointed out they seemed to be struggling to answer but I could give them a detailed account based on the process of evolution they decided it was time to leave!).

For a belief system to be at all credible for me it has to account for the laws of nature, not pretend they aren't there- so I have much less trouble with believers such as yourself Kafria than those who stick to the words of the Bible as the actual words of God (when in fact the evidence for the writing and production of the Bible throughout the centuries is well documented and at no point involved a God picking up a pen).

[Kafria]

than those who stick to the words of the Bible as the actual words of God (when in fact the evidence for the writing and production of the Bible throughout the centuries is well documented and at no point involved a God picking up a pen).

What bothers me more is the way a number pick and choose which words to stick to and which to ignore, the hypocrisy of those performing acts of violence in the name of faith, when the gospel goes on about turing the other cheek etc.

And when the advice in the old testament to women in their natural cycle is they are unclean and should live outside the settlement till clean and ceremonally washed or that mystics should be stoned you have to look to who put pen to paper at least a little!

[Pettytyrant101]

Agreed. The laws on rape demonstrate that well. A rapist is supposed to 'do the right thing' by taking the women as his wife. The complete regard in that for the woman gives a very strong indication as to the sex of the people writing the Bible. Also odd that an omnipotent God should be so confined in His thinking to, coincidentally, exactly the sort of thinking common in those parts of the world at the time the books were being written.

[Kafria]

Shoot! the third reactors gone in japan and this one seems to have ruptured the containment vessel - radiation above the legal limit!

[Eldorion]

Some of the religious discussion on this page has made me curious about what you guys think of an issue that has been on my mind recently, though it's a bit sensitive so I totally understand if people would rather not talk about it.

Based on those two ideas I don't hold with a vengeful God, one who sends disasters to punish or give people a time to reflect and repent. Underpinning this is the idea that God gave us free will, to choose to follow or not, as opposed to being a dictatorial figure (not sure this is the right turn of phrase, but the best I can do right now). 'Sins' are in the most part things we do that hurt each other and so should be avoided.

Do you think that God sends people to Hell, even for not truly victimless "crimes" like not believing in him? I always find it encouraging to meet Christians who do not believe in a vengeful God who plagues the world with disasters and death, but what has always puzzled me far more is the notion that an all-loving God would send people to be tortured for all eternity. Even if one thinks that being a member of a non-Judeo-Christian religion (or not being religious at all) is worthy of punishment - and I think that alone is cause for serious questioning - torture for eternity is an infinite punishment, even though the length of our time on Earth means that all human crimes are necessarily finite.

This is a personal point of interest to me, particularly in light of some discussions I've had recently with a friend of mine (who is a Christian), and I'm curious to find a fresh perpsective on the matter. Unfortunately, most of my (admittedly limited) Googling has turned up more conventional statements of the problem of evil, and most of the Christian websites I've looked at take it for granted that Hell is a just punishment. Anyway, like I said, I understand if this is a sensitive issue that you'd rather not discuss, but I'm trying to see what other people think. In that vein, if anyone else has thoughts on the matter, please share them!

[Eldorion]

Shoot! the third reactors gone in japan and this one seems to have ruptured the containment vessel - radiation above the legal limit!

I really hope they can get that situation under control. The absolute last thing that Japan needs is yet another disaster to compound this, especially with seismologists predicting an aftershock of at least magnitude 7, which is in and of itself massive.

[Pettytyrant101]

The news just gets worse and worse from Japan. There are times when I wish I did believe in a God if only because then one has the certainty they went somewhere better, rather than they were just swept to a pointless death because, to quote a T-shirt, "Sh*t Happens".

With regard your question about Hell and punishment Eldo, although I cannot answer it because I am not a Christian or a follower of any God, I can I feel offer something based on two of your comments;

"God would send people to be tortured for all eternity. Even if one thinks that being a member of a non-Judeo-Christian religion (or not being religious at all) is worthy of punishment - and I think that alone is cause for serious questioning - torture for eternity is an infinite punishment, even though the length of our time on Earth means that all human crimes are necessarily finite."

"most of the Christian websites I've looked at take it for granted that Hell is a just punishment."

On the latter one might I say, that is the problem when you go to websites where the people who author it have only ever read one book!

note - I use the term 'Christianity' in the following in the broad sense, there are many varying degrees of belief within the broad scope Christianity of course so I use it to mean the main views shared by the biggest Christian churches in general terms.

Eldo you seem here to be taking the concept of Hell, a fiery place of torture and punishment for all eternity, as something accepted and which has always been there.
It might perhaps help you answer your question to understand how the idea evolved.

The earliest written records of the concept of an afterlife are Sumerian (approx 4000bc-almost certainly from older oral traditions) and they speak of an Underworld. The Summerians influenced everyone in the Middle-east who came after them, from Egyptians to Jews and Muslims and Christians and so to the rest of us.
There name for their afterlife, The Underworld, is a strong visual word and it stills permeates our imagery of Hell today which is often depicted as being a cavernous subterranean place.

By the time you get to the earliest Judaism the idea has become called She'ol, a place of darkness where everyone goes when they are dead regardless of what they might have done in life. There you become aware of all the things you did wrong, making it a sort of early concept of Purgatory. Nor is it an eternal process, in fact its quite quick, about a year at most.
Another additive to the modern idea of hell is Gehenna. Which was actually a place outside Jerusalem. It was supposedly where the followers of the old Canaanite Gods and Moloch had the fires in which they sacrificed their children. Its almost certainly one of the places our modern Hell gets its idea of fire and fiery pits from ( the other main one being, obviously, Greek Hades).

Oddly enough the Hell most like the modern one in Christianity comes from the Muslims. In the Qur'an there's is a literal fiery place just like the modern Christian one which is contrasted with a Paradise Garden for the Righteous. It is of course possible the Muslims took the idea from the Christians but I think it more likely that, as with kneeling to pray, Christianity took it from the Muslims.

And then of course the whole Christ thing hit Europe and we actually got the word Hell. Well sort of, originally it was halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something". Which tells you a lot about the pagan culture of Europe where to be a liar, deceitful or especially an oath-breaker was far, far worse than to be a mere murderer, after all a murderer may kill for profit, or love, or fear, but a liar lies only for themselves. The notion of kinship was strong in pagan north European culture. Christianity seems to have borrowed the word but not taken much of the original meaning with it save perhaps adding selfishness as one of things you can be tortured for in Hell. Eventually, about 700Ad the word had become Hel in Old English and from that we get Hell today.

So as you can see the very idea of Hell is a hodge-podge of ideas, images and theology. It started as place you went and became aware of all your misdeeds and so rid yourself of them, then it was a place of judgement (I missed the Egyptians out-that was one of their additions), then during the years it picked up images that stuck in the mind- it was cavernous, subterranean, people were burnt there, and during the mediaeval period it was like an arms race of how bad is Hell? They spit you on spikes, forever, they pull your eyeballs out and make you watch as they unwind your intestines, then they put them all back in and do again, forever and so on.
And today its a mix of all this and held up as something people are supposed to believe in they same way they do the room they are sitting in.

So before you consider the question of why God wants people to be tortured for ever in Hell you should perhaps ask was He ever really doing it?

[Eldorion]

That was a very informative post, Petty. Thank you. I always had a great deal of discomfort with the vision of Hell that a lot of the more outspoken Christians in America (who in all fairness, are probably not representative of the majority) talk about, though I was able to avoid dealing with the issue head on because of the nature of the type of Quakers I was raised around. It's interesting for me as a non-believer, and will hopefully interesting for my friend too. Out of curiosity, do you know what role Milton and Dante played in shaping the modern conception of Hell? I recall reading that they introduced a number of elements, but perhaps they were simply borrowing from other traditions.

[Pettytyrant101]

I read Dante's Inferno many years ago. It of course is not a religious work at all but a piece of satire. And I of course read the translation, being a one language Brit (Penguin Classic it was- I also recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh, apart from being the oldest written story in the world you will also meet an early version of Noah complete with Flood story and its a cracking tale!).

I'm not too sure how much of the catholic rhetoric and imagery of the day Dante was satirizing and how much he was adding to it. His description of it is so vivid I think it influenced a lot of art depicting Hell and so into the general public mind. I think the concept of the different areas of Hell, for gluttons, thieves, etc might be his because I can't think where else it might have come from.

[Pettytyrant101]

With Japan horrifying and distracting the world in equal measure Gadaffi has stepped up his murder spree across Libya, pretty much unchecked by outside countries.
UK PM Cameron said two days ago Britain was going to take strict measures- this turned out to be a 'strongly worded' statement.
What?! people are dying because they don't want to live under a despot. People are dying to overthrow a murder and replace him with a Democracy and whilst that happens we write letters?
This is the problem with a public school boy in charge- if that was me when I say "strict measures" I mean I'm going to pay him a visit he won't forget in a hurry.
This dallying is just cowardice, hedging bets in case the bad guy wins and still has the oil we want. Its time this country showed some backbone. Scotland supposedly has always fought for freedom- here's a chance to prove it.
Bugger the niceties, bugger the UN get troops on the ground supporting the rebels, even if its only to protect and defend them long enough for the intentional community to actually do something rather than this deadly dithering.
At this rate by the time we get organised it will be over- which makes we wonder if its deliberate- reminds me of Yes Prime Minster- "We say there is nothing we can do about it. Then we say there might be something we can do we will look into it. Then we say there might have been something we could have done, but its too late now."

[Kafria]

Libya is pretty horrific at the moment and I suspect there is a string chance that the rebels are going to beaten back and gaddafi is going to take some awful retaliation. Don't understand why the international community isn't doing more either.

mind the news is pretty bad all over, Bahrain protests and a three month state of emergency (six protstors dead), Syrian protests, Yemen protests and clashes, burning of churches and muslim/christian clashes in Egypt.

Not to mention the danger of an unshielded nuclear fission reaction in reactor 4 in Japan!

Oh, and poor NZ whose own big disaster has all but disappeared from the news and peoples thoughts too!

[Pettytyrant101]

And in the UK out tv screens are being filled with Comic Relief stuff, film of slums, starving children and the like. I've got shock, sorrow, awe, sadness, loss and a whole host of other feelings over all this to contend with as it is! Not sure I can take much more misery. Something good happen somewhere!!!

[Kafria]

The UN Security Council has backed a no-fly zone over Libya and "all necessary measures" short of an invasion "to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas".

Action from the UN at last, possibly forced into action by the news that Gaddafi has started bombing his own citizens. But he is continuing to threaten as well

The Libyan military has warned that any foreign operations against Libya will expose all maritime and air navigation in the Mediterranean Sea to danger, state TV reports.

"All civilian and military activities will be the target of a Libyan counter-attack. The Mediterranean Sea will be in serious danger not only in the short term but also in the long term," a screen caption said

Could be interesting in the next few days. Russia and China are 2 of the 5 who abstained, to be expected, slighty less so is that the Germans also abstained!

[Pettytyrant101]

You'd think the Germans would know a crazy ass dictator when they see one! Shame on them.

But there is a bigger underlying problem to all this that seems to be slipping by unseen. The West's involvement in this. Only a few weeks ago the British PM was in Libya with a team of arms dealers ready to sell their wares. Now the government is backing action vocally. So when exactly did he go from being a nice chap you could do business with to a clear nutter who must be removed by International will?

I'm also starting to see an unpleasant pattern here. Afghanistan comes with a very handy and sought after oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea. In the Clinton era the Americans struck a deal with the Afghan govt to run and develop it, in return for all the usual backhanders. But then the Taliban came along and tore the deal up. At the time the US Ambassador told them it could go one of two ways. The US good shower them with gifts. Or with bombs.
Fast forward to 9/11 and who gets the blame, Afghanistan, eventually. Because first the US, alone in the world and in the face of all the facts, tells its people Iraq was involved and is a part of the same axis of evil. Before you know it Afghanistan and Iraq are invaded.
Now Libya and again the troops go in.

Now I'm all for backing the rebels in trying to overthrow a Dictator but there are plenty of Dictators to choose from, Mugabe springs to mind another butcher of his own people, yet by some strange chance all the countries which have come to the fore, and had troops put into them, are oil rich.
Just me or that seem a hell of a coincidence?

[Kafria]

Oh I think it is fair to say there seems to be a real pattern here! Oil is king and the US seem more protective than most! Interesting, when there is a suggestion that they are stockpiling their domestic supplies. Some would say there is a long term plan to use oil reserves to ensure it's continued super power status!

But the quesiton is where do we draw the line and say this is where we get involved? Libya is different to any of the other protests as it did become civil war and violent protest. Other demonstrations in other conutries have been largely peaceful. And although they have been repressed, it has been in a different league to the stuff that has happened in Libya. And do we really hold off for fear of this kind of conclusion being drawn? I think what is clear about this is that it has at least some backing from Arab nations themselves.