Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Lancebloke]

Well, apparently Israel is going too far even for some people in the US. I am not sure if that is purposeful from Netanyahu. Someone has to usher in the rapture after all!

And on the last part, there are plenty more 'atrocities' that have happened in the world and I wouldn't actually consider that one of them.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ You dont think using weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations, and leaving a legacy of genetic mutation and malformed children for generations, is not a war crime? Really? Why not?

As to Israel, the reporting over their response to Bidens call is interesting, the BBC says-

'Israel says it will open or expand three crossings into Gaza to increase humanitarian aid.'

However according to Al-Jazeera, who are probably right on this I think, they say the Israel PM's office said-

“Israel will allow the temporary delivery of humanitarian aid through Ashdod and the Erez checkpoint,”

Note the 'temporary' exactly how long that means seems unknown. But Israel don't want to do this, they are forced in to it, they don't want to stop the fight, and I reckon even if Netanyahu tried to stop the fighting now he would fail, as it would collapse his coalition of right wing religious nutjobs and zealots who will continue on regardless now, and that would also remove all the protections keeping Netanyahu in office, and out of jail. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Few reasons I don't think the change in allowing Aid in from Israel, under US threat, will work.

1. Netanyahu relies on his coalition partners to stay in power. He needs to stay in power because if there is an election, and he loses- and all indications are he would - then the opposition party, whose leader hates Netanyahu and believes him guilty, even before Oct 7th, of mass corruption, will pursue Netanyahu through the courts mercilessly. So Netanyahu needs to cling to power, and presumably in his mind if he 'wins' this war, destroys Hamas, depopulates Gaza and takes it for Israel, all will be forgiven and he will be hailed by his people as a great leader. He can't stop.

2. His coalition partners are crazy. Real nutjob religious fundamentalists. The many things said throughout this war by representatives of these parties in government are well documented, they view all Palestinians as guilty by association, they view all of Gaza and the West Bank as belonging solely to Israel and will not stop until it does. They have made their aims clear and publicly.

3. Ending the war without achieving the above goals will lead to an internationally enforced diplomatic solution. That solution will mean an officially internationally recognised Palestinian state in Gaza and parts of the West Bank, as well as a shared capital in Jerusalem and shared access to the Temple Mt. This is something Netanyahu and his partners have said they will never let happen.
As it will happen, if they stop the war before making 2 states impossible by annihilating one of them, they cannot stop the war.

4. The IDF are not a regular military, they are largely enforced conscripts. But the populations which it's drawn from include a lot of people who left their own countries to go to Israel in order to live and serve there. The sort of person who does that is not causally religious. There is mounting evidence from CNN, the BBC, Al Jazeera and others of mass mistreatment of prisoners by the IDF, indiscriminate killing of civilians even those under a white flag, the killing of journalists, and evidence of groups of IDF singing songs relating to wiping out all Palestinians and based around the idea there are no innocent Palestinians, and base don historical/mythological history of former genocides committed by Israel in the Old Testament in the name of God. For many of those fighting, this is a religious war. These same 'soldiers' have now had months of a war in which it seems they have largely operated unchecked in how they treat civilians, if not encouraged in the mistreatment of them. This sort of religiously driven war mind set in an armed force, once let loose and embedded, is very difficult to change and makes it all the harder to make them stop.

Conclusion - Israel will open up the aid allowed in for a period of time, long enough to buy breathing space with the US and the time they need to finish preparations for the invasion of Rafah, which will still happen. That's my prediction. }}

[Lancebloke]

{{ You dont think using weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations, and leaving a legacy of genetic mutation and malformed children for generations, is not a war crime? Really? Why not?

As to Israel, the reporting over their response to Bidens call is interesting, the BBC says-

'Israel says it will open or expand three crossings into Gaza to increase humanitarian aid.'

However according to Al-Jazeera, who are probably right on this I think, they say the Israel PM's office said-

“Israel will allow the temporary delivery of humanitarian aid through Ashdod and the Erez checkpoint,”

Note the 'temporary' exactly how long that means seems unknown. But Israel don't want to do this, they are forced in to it, they don't want to stop the fight, and I reckon even if Netanyahu tried to stop the fighting now he would fail, as it would collapse his coalition of right wing religious nutjobs and zealots who will continue on regardless now, and that would also remove all the protections keeping Netanyahu in office, and out of jail. }}

On the first part, I think the alternatives were far worse and in a state of total war that was probably the best of a set of shitty options.

Also not sure if it was a war crime at the time.

For the second part, I agree that Israel don't want to do it but they are also now looking at a turning of world opinion against them.

Originally a response was expecting and supported following the Oct 6th (or whatever date) attacks.

Then it was... OK your response is a bit heavy handed but maybe justified as the only way to deal with the situation.

Now it seems to have gone beyond justifiable (and I mean to governments, not to the public) and there is a lot of pressure from allies to scale back. This is also the case for their staunchest ally, the US.

And Israel relies on them heavily so their approach changing is what will really have an impact.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Can't say I'm very convinced by Israel's explanation of the aid workers. They've got a generally plausible enough sounding scenario except for one bit, and it happens to be the key bit.

According to Israel the drone team tracked the aid lorries to the warehouse, 'At this point the convoy splits, the aid lorry remains in the warehouse, and four SUV type cars emerge. One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge next to another aid warehouse. Meanwhile, three remaining vehicles, that belong to World Central Kitchen, begins to head south.'- BBC

Then what Israel is calling a 'misidentification' occurred, with one of the Aid workers being misidentified as a terrorist, and according to the report was seen by the drone operators getting into one of the three aid cars with a bag he was carrying that was also 'misidentified' as a rifle.

This is the key moment, this 'misidentification', as the military investigation said, 'Under the mistaken belief that one vehicle now contained a gunman, authorisation to fire a missile is sought, and granted by superior officers.'
Without the misidentification of the aid worker none of this would have happened.

And here's the problem, they showed footage of all the key moments except one, the footage of the mistaken aid worker entering the vehicle carrying the bag, according to the BBC -
"No footage of this moment was provided"

So the key piece of evidence believing their entire version of events is dependent on, just happens to be the one bit of evidence that is mysteriously missing, and we have to take the militaries word for it that they saw him, the same military who conducted the attack.
It needs independent investigation. This isn't good enough. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Hasnt taken long for Netanyahu crazy partners in government to go against his word-

“The chief of staff’s decision to dismiss senior officers is an abandonment of the fighters in the middle of a war and a serious mistake that conveys weakness, even if there are mistakes in identification, soldiers are backed up in war.”” wrote Ben-Gvir (national security Minister).

And other ministers have publicly come out against increasing any aid into Gaza, saying its a mistake that emboldens Hamas and weakens Israel. }}

[Mrs Figg]

Best song for Eurovision ever.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Just to note in the latest polling for the Westminster election across half a dozen surveys, Labour and SNP are neck and neck within the margin of error on about 34% of the vote each, with the latest Survation poll taken in February putting Labour on 33 and the SNP on 38. It should also be noted the SNP having a lot of MP's at Westminster is a recent historical event resulting from a series of events unlikely to coincide again, before that they sent 2-4 MP's. That they compete at all in seats for Westminster these days is a massive shift.
For the Scottish Parliament elections (still 2 years away) the SNP lead by a clearer margin with it going from a 2% difference in the tightest polling to a 10%+ lead in latest polling. And 2 years is a long time in politics, we may well have had 2 years of a Labour Westminster government by then and much on how Labour do in Scotland will depend on how Labour in Westminster cope.}}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Another piece of sane journalism from BBC Scotland on the Hate Crime Bill, looking into its actual effect so far and its effect on free speech, they stared talking about Rowlngs pathetic attempts to taunt the police into arresting her for misgendering people.- }}

'Scotland's national police force quickly decided that Ms Rowling's posts were not criminal and declined the invitation to arrest her...Perhaps freedom of speech in Scotland was still going strong after all.
If so, it might have come as a surprise to those who had been listening only to critics of the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021, including the entrepreneur Elon Musk, the podcaster Joe Rogan and the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.
Mr Sunak had strongly implied that the law was silencing certain views when he told broadcasters: "We're not going to be doing anything like that here in England. We should not be criminalising people saying common sense things about biological sex."
For clarity, England already has specific hate crime offences relating to race, religion and sexual orientation. There is also a more general protection from hatred throughout the UK, including on social media, in the Communications Act 2003 which states that it is an offence to send a message which is "grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character".
The fact that, so far at least, no one has been criminalised in Scotland for "saying common sense things", might have been less surprising to a parade of lawyers and academics who had warned in advance that the new law was being misrepresented around the world.
"I've not seen any sensible lawyer who thinks misgendering will become a crime tomorrow," wrote Roddy Dunlop KC, Dean of the Faculty of Advocates...Dr Andrew Tickell, a law lecturer at Glasgow Caledonian University, insisted the legislation had a relatively high bar for criminality, stressing its free speech provisions. Adam Tomkins, a professor of public law at Glasgow University who actually voted against the bill when he was a Conservative MSP agreed that it was "fairly safe" in terms of free speech. "It's not a hate crime under this legislation to misgender somebody," he told BBC Scotland News, adding "even if somebody finds it really upsetting, really offensive, it's not a hate crime because it's not something that a reasonable person would regard as a threat or as abusive."

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Well first set of results in for the new Hate Laws, there were 7000 complaints made out of which only 240 met the criteria for the law.
Out of those 120 were relating to racial abuse- so we can take them out the numbers really as those would have been reported anyway under the previous 50 year old race laws.

Out of the remainder 42 were related to sexual orientation.
38 for abuse aimed at the disabled.
21 were age related
and another 21 for religious abuse.
and last and very much least, 8 complaints around trans issues.

The police say it's had a minimal impact on their policing or front line services. So working absolutely fine. No one silenced, free speech till free, and trans related issues make up the smallest part of it by a long way (hardly surprising as only abut 1-2% of the entire population is trans).
I'd hope that'd be the end of the right wing lies, misinformation and outright hysteria but I won't hold my breath, facts have never mattered to them before when there's a chance to attack the SNP or stoke the cultural wars for political gain. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ What on earth is happening to the English? Or at least the midlands bit, I mean south, generally rude wankers with a few exceptions like Lance and Azriel here (they may be the only two though!), north decent (even Figg ), and I've always been indifferent to the midlanders, but last night at work was, insightful as we had a hotel full of them.

So I'm collecting up empty glasses from the tables for the bar, 1st table of folk I go by are ranting about 'all the bloody Chinese everywhere'. Is there some Chinese invasion of England I am unaware of?
Deeper into the lounge it gets worse, much worse, this lot are complaining about all the ni**ers! At this point I'm starting to wonder what's going on only to go passed a third table of folk going on about how appalling it is the PM of Great Britain isn't white. Like there isn't enough about Sunak to hate as a politician and Tory they need to stoop as low as race. I'm starting to wonder if the Midlands has a Ku Klux Klan branch or something and this was their yearly outing. }}

[Lancebloke]

There are actually lots of Chinese in the Midlands. They seem to populate a lot of the universities in places like Sheffield so maybe that is what they are in about?

As for the rest... as we know the government have been using racially charged rhetoric for a while as a USP to stay in power. Irony is the pikes of Priti and Suella are visual representations of the hate they have been stirring up and Rishi has been complicit in... so reaping what they sow and all that.

Either way, not very nice!

Also, southerners are normally nice!

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ True enough Lance, but it's bloody stupid and dangerous thing to do for a few votes. Most of our customers who are on coach package trips are working class, and if that is representative of how the working class in England are thinking it's as equally repugnant as it is disappointing.

And maybe my view of the south is tarnished by my one and only (and definitely my last) trip to London, a city I found to be supremely unfriendly and unlikeable. The irony of it being the only nice people we meet were all immigrants, the native Londoners were rude, unhelpful and in one instant outright racist to my then partner who was Italian. They are also cowards, as while she doesn't need much in the way of defending being more than capable, he ran away when I turned up. Happy to berate two Italian women, less keen on berating an angry Scotsman (he locked himself in his bus the coward!) }}

[Lancebloke]

I think most big cities are similar in that people are rushing about doing their thing and come across as rude. Some of them are and some of them aren't.

A lot of us work with people from all over the world and so racism doesn't really make sense. I think it tends to be more people that don't deal with lots of variety that are like that because it is something unknown and a possible threat... not that they are all just people trying to make their way like all of us.

[Mrs Figg]

I find that public transport is a weathervane to the society in which I find it. For example, get on a bus in Lancashire or Yorkshire and you will have people happily chatting in a friendly manner. The culture is homogenous apart from certain pockets of Asian people in certain towns. If you get on the London Tube or buses I find largely silence, anxiety, and people avoiding eye contact, the culture is massively heterogeneous, with cultural practices and attitudes that repel the indigenous people. The indigenous cultures are naturally friendly but exposure to non-European cultures sours the milk. This is not racist or 'far right, or even KKK, it's a slow buildup of real experiences smashing into one's natural inclination to welcome strangers. It's a general fact that homogenous societies are the most welcoming, whether its Outer Mongolia or Greece. I think there are probably exceptions, say New York, which has built its reputation on being a melting pot, but I bet that's a rarity.

But there is no excuse for racist abuse. Maybe you could have reported them for hate crimes?

[halfwise]

If Manchester is the north and Sheffield is midlands that's a pretty finely drawn line. I suppose it goes from the mouth of the river Mersey to the mouth of the river Humber?

[halfwise]

New York's definitely different, I've heard representatives from several different ethnic groups say that everyone feels comfortable here. My Chinese ex said she picked NYC as her lifelong home because she'd never experienced a city like this, didn't know a city could be like this. But I thought London would be the same.  Sorry to hear they haven't cracked the code.  In my few days there I didn't pick up those nuances.

I was in london for a wedding; the groom was my friend who had married a woman from the London burbs.  The train ride after the wedding was quite rowdy, and I eventually realized it was her football team-mates.  She was the only woman on the team (no shrinking violet, that one) and they were in a fine celebratory mood.  Quite daunting, actually, witnessing a British football team in a celebratory mood!

[Lancebloke]

Going in and out of London every week for 15 years, I dont find it a problem at all. Like everywhere, there are pockets of people that keep to themselves and their community but it isn't how a lot of people suggest that have only been a few times.

Very similar to New York.

[Mrs Figg]

[Mrs Figg]

Going in and out of London every week for 15 years, I dont find it a problem at all. Like everywhere, there are pockets of people that keep to themselves and their community but it isn't how a lot of people suggest that have only been a few times.

Very similar to New York.

yep, London probably is getting like New York.

[azriel]

I dont know whats happening to the English apart from being in a mental dead zone. Where I live theres bugger all, no jobs, rent is too high, nothing for young kids to do after school or in the holidays, nothing for teens and up apart from getting hammered or high. It feels like people will follow anyone that shouts loud enough and long enough. I think at the root of it theres no ambition, no goals and no fecking pride. Its a "whats the point" attitude, no job so cant get the money, no money so cant get the car, no car cant get a better job and so it goes on. In my town there is an awful lot of Asians, refugees from one country or another and they work, they do get jobs and get on with it. The English cant understand how the feck they do it so, instead of saying I can do that too, its easier to make yourself feel superior by being abusive, rude and racist. In all the things people cant do this is the one thing they can do. Now, if all the men had a decent job, had some money left from paying bills, had the chance of promotion, and something to show for going to a 9 to 5 like, a house, you wouldnt get half the abuse. Hate breeds hate, its true but, fulfilment bloodywell helps make you a better person. Ive got all sorts round me, Polish, Irish, Malaysian as well as English, I chat to them all, I dont give a shat what colour you are, if your decent to me Im decent to you. If your not IL just ignore you, I wont call you names and blow your car up. So far the Malay woman has overcome her fear of dogs because my dog is a fluffy lump and weve been chatting. Yes there is snobbery still, Im sure there is in every town, I find it quite amusing because they are the rude ones, Id like to think Id be the same sort of person if I lived in the North, west or East, I wonder how things would be if the land mass of millions of years ago had not split up ( Pangea ) Would we be so warring, aggressive etc ? If we had to live literally together on one huge continent, would we be blinkered, tunnel vision, unwilling to change stick in the muds or, would we be more conducive to helping each other out,

[Mrs Figg]

And it begins.....     police arrested 74-year-old pensioner for hate crime. She was videoing her neighbour attacking her rose bush.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Except she was never arrested. There as an incident between neighbours, one reported the other, the police turned up took the person accused to the station to interview her then took her back home.

“They said there was no charge or criminal record and let me go.”

She claims she was 'traumatised'. I claim bullshit. If being spoken to by the police is traumatising then I need therapy for all the trauma I've endured. Being in a war is traumatising, this is not. I got lifted at 2am once for being out stargazing and taken to the station for questioning. Big deal. They ask you what went on, make an assessment against the law, and if you haven't actually done anything wrong, as here, off you go free. It's how the police have always operated.
Oh and they got the neighbour for making false accusations.

Incidentally if the neighbour making the false accusation had happened to be black and claimed rather than age related abuse it had been race related abuse, and this had happened any time in the last 50 years before the current laws, the exact same thing would happen. All that has changed is that there are now 4 categories of abuse you can done for instead of 1. Police turn up, don't know what's happened, don't know who is telling the truth, they speak to the person accused of the crime and proceed from there. Absolutely standard police practise in any incident. Yet another non-incident hyped up beyond recognition.}}

[Mrs Figg]

Lets face it, if it had been the Tory police arresting grannies you would have been all over it like a rash.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ No one was arrested. This is how police investigate any accusation of crime. They interview, they decide if the law has been broken. It wasn't, end of case. There is absolutely nothing at all unusual about how they acted, out the way, out of the ordinary or not standard police practise about what happened. Its a complete non-story.
It's got nothing to do with politics. I happen to be in favour of including other protected groups beside race in our hate laws. After all why should someone who racially abuses someone get a harsher sentence than someone who abuses someone over being gay or disabled, say? The law as was was neither fair nor even handed. Now it is. }}