All New Who
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Re: All New Who
{{ The sound mixing certainly seems to have been a bit off of late, and your not the only person Ive heard complain Amarie about being unable to hear dialogue. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
{{ This probably counts as a spoiler, though its been officially announced by the BBC-
- Spoiler:
- Jodies Doctor wil regenerate next year in whats been called the Centenary Special. So if your hoping to see her gone at the end of this six parter I'm afraid theres a bit to go yet, a presumably New Year epiosde then this special.
Also note this is a Centenary special, that is its marking the centenary of the BBC. RTD is still still starting his 2nd run with Who's own 60th Anniversary Special (as far as we know anyway). Exactly what the difference in format or style between an anniversary episode for the BBC and one for Who itself is not clear and will be odd to have two anniversary specials back to back.
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
Is there ay speculation as who will take over the role? I hope its a bloke. I heard it might be that kid who starred in Its a Sin. Don't know much about him, but he seems way too young.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
Not familiar with It's a Sin, so I looked up the cast. If anyone is to be used from that cast, it's either Stephen Fry or Neil Patrick Harris.
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halfwise- Quintessence of Burrahobbitry
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Re: All New Who
- Spoiler:
- ah, last week Chibbers used RTD's playbook and this week lo and behold Chibbers is taking the playbook from Moffat and messing about with it. It almost seemed like a bit of a urine take. Very timey-wimey, Weeping Angels and the like.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
{{ Not got time for full review, but in short- boring, boring, boring, deriviative of Moffat but without the skill. Yaz and Dans part in this could be removed at no loss, just filler. The actual narrative could have been told in half the time and more starghtforwardly, its obscure for the sake of being obscure. Theres no real purpose to it. I expect the Ai's for this one to be interesting. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
The other two characters (Dave Lister and girlfriend) are useless filler as well. and yes, it was boring boring boring.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
The overnight viewing figures for once Upon Time was 3.76 million-which sounds low but is still holding quite steady, it seems to me in the UK at least New Who will always have at minimum core audience of 2.5-3.5 million who tune in every week I don't think the figures will fall much further (but maybe Chibnall will prove us wrong again...), judging by online reactions 'Flux' seems to have been more popular so far with fan audiences rather than the general public.
More concerning is the AI rating for the episode, which is 75 which I believe is the lowest ever score for a New Who episode...
I had assumed RTD would want to update the formula of the show and move towards a more serialised structure to bring the show back with a flasj, but the mixed response to Flux so far makes me wonder if the BBC will actually prefer a return to 12/13x45 minute standalone stories instead...afterall there's not much point in trying to shake up the show creatively if there's not many viewers left willing to give it a chance.
I haven't watched Flux but my parents have seen the 1st episode (not sure about the 2nd) and seemed to write it off as mostly a confusing slow mess-if you can't grab the viewers attention in the first couple of episodes then they won't stick aorund for a whole series...
More concerning is the AI rating for the episode, which is 75 which I believe is the lowest ever score for a New Who episode...
I had assumed RTD would want to update the formula of the show and move towards a more serialised structure to bring the show back with a flasj, but the mixed response to Flux so far makes me wonder if the BBC will actually prefer a return to 12/13x45 minute standalone stories instead...afterall there's not much point in trying to shake up the show creatively if there's not many viewers left willing to give it a chance.
I haven't watched Flux but my parents have seen the 1st episode (not sure about the 2nd) and seemed to write it off as mostly a confusing slow mess-if you can't grab the viewers attention in the first couple of episodes then they won't stick aorund for a whole series...
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The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
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Re: All New Who
{{ My review of the latest episode is midcomposition (turning out to be longer than I expected, but the crabbit will flow with the buckie But thats a shocking AI and it is indeed the worst in NUwho history- another new record along side having now 4 episodes in a row with AI's all in the 70's.
I dont think this weeks episode is going to do anything to draw anyone else who isnt already watching into doing so.
This story is now at its midpoint, we've had about 2 and half hours worth of television, and if thats not enough to engage the audience in your story I doubt they are going to want to jump on now. And nor it seems are they going to want to jump on via catch-up as the catch-up figures have remained about the same as Chibnall last two series, which were another record as being the lowest in NuWho since the new system began (somewher ein Smiths run).
Next week we've got Weeping Angels who have topped a few polls for Who enemies people would most like to see again, so they may help a little, at least on AI- its hard to imagine it could go lower- but if the finale of this story is not spectacularly clever and satisfyng and is as messy as the rest has been, it may well do. }}
I dont think this weeks episode is going to do anything to draw anyone else who isnt already watching into doing so.
This story is now at its midpoint, we've had about 2 and half hours worth of television, and if thats not enough to engage the audience in your story I doubt they are going to want to jump on now. And nor it seems are they going to want to jump on via catch-up as the catch-up figures have remained about the same as Chibnall last two series, which were another record as being the lowest in NuWho since the new system began (somewher ein Smiths run).
Next week we've got Weeping Angels who have topped a few polls for Who enemies people would most like to see again, so they may help a little, at least on AI- its hard to imagine it could go lower- but if the finale of this story is not spectacularly clever and satisfyng and is as messy as the rest has been, it may well do. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
The more they use the Weeping Angels the less scary they become. Chibbers must be desperate for new ideas.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
{{ I think Moffat used them quite sparingly really given how popular they were. In fact he only really used them three times across 8 series as the main story event. Blink, which was a low cost epiosde and Doctor light episode that relied on a small cast and a lot of scares in dark places. So when he came to bring them back he basically took the alien/aliens route. He brought an army of them back to life on a planet in a claustrophic setting with soldiers and did the Who equivelent of blowing them out the airlock at the end. Its aliens. But it works as it has good tension and some good wel written character scenes, and the supporting cast particualrly Father Octavious are good.
The last time was Angels Take Manhattan, Amy and Rory's exit story, whcih again I really enjoy. You have to accept a big enogh mass of Angels in every statue n the city can create a perception field big enough to prevent everyone noticing the staue of liberty going for a stroll but its emotional in the right places, its got jumps in the right places, a nice 1940's noir film style to it and a good ending to the Ponds time on the show.
But theres not too many places you can go with them save to where I think Cibnal will go, where he seems to go when he doesnt know how to go forward- backwards- I think we'll get the Weeping Angels origins by end of these six parts. }}
The last time was Angels Take Manhattan, Amy and Rory's exit story, whcih again I really enjoy. You have to accept a big enogh mass of Angels in every statue n the city can create a perception field big enough to prevent everyone noticing the staue of liberty going for a stroll but its emotional in the right places, its got jumps in the right places, a nice 1940's noir film style to it and a good ending to the Ponds time on the show.
But theres not too many places you can go with them save to where I think Cibnal will go, where he seems to go when he doesnt know how to go forward- backwards- I think we'll get the Weeping Angels origins by end of these six parts. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
{{ Brace yourselves.....
{{ So, Once, Upon Time. Well that was, something.
{{ So, Once, Upon Time. Well that was, something.
- Spoiler:
- I think I have to first talk about one of the reasons I admire Moffat's writing technique, as an example of how do this sort of story. The trick from a writing point of view is actually quite simple in theory and a bugger to successfully pull off in practise. It involves initially deliberately confusing or disorientating, or both, your viewer using disparate threads to slowly build up the entire pattern. With the aim that by the time you get to the end all the pieces slot to together and give a satisfying conclusion.
Moffat's particular skill however is to add the extra relish to this, he lays things out in such a way the answer is always right in front of the viewer but yet not seen till its meant to be. A writing sleight of hand if you will. And secondly he gives his answers in such a fashion that the viewer will connect the dots right before the story reveals the solution. Many folk often accuse Moffat, wrongly, of writing these sort of stories 'to show how clever he is' the irony of course being he writes these stories in such a fashion they are designed to make the viewer feel clever.
I've had a few chortles at folk claiming some Moffat twist was rubbish because they worked it out right before the reveal, not for one instant realising they have been led by the hand to make their genius conclusion at exactly that point in the narrative, and their feeing of outsmarting the writer and being cleverest person in the room is in fact all created by the writer precisely to make the viewer feel that way. They just fell for it. Its what makes these types of stories so satisfying, from joe bloggs viewer to the sort of person who does the Times crossword for breakfast. It should give you a mystery, a puzzle, then all the clues you need to solve it, then let you solve it right before confirming if your right or not. That's the game the writer is out to play with the audience. And its just as easy for the writer to lose as the audience.
To give an example of how difficult this technique is Ive been reading a lot of Agatha Christie as some of you know, and the last one I read, the Blue Train one, whilst it had many points I enjoyed and admired had one major flaw in its puzzle- you don't get the piece you need to solve it until its too late, Poirot reveals it after the villain is revealed. The reader, having puzzled their way this far can never solve the murder because all the information is not there to do so. For all Christie's talents many talents and skills as a writer she still couldn't in this instance pull off the technique Moffat has shown himself so adept at. Its a very particular and difficult skill.
The point to that lengthy Moffat praise is to say that this sort of technique is not for everyone, its not straightforward to do well and very, very easy to get wrong. Which brings me back to Chibnal, who gets it all so very, very wrong.
I think the best way to tackle what is wrong is to simply tell the episodes story, but not as it does- but to lay out what happens.
We meet a new character Bel. She is a survivor in the remnants of the universe post Flux sweeping through it, the Daleks and Cybermen are engaged in mass war against anything left alive and each other. She is pregnant and has a device which lets her communicate with the child in her womb, allowing an emoji style reflection of how the baby feels. She is trying to find her partner and father of her child Vinder.
At this point, three episodes in we have half a dozen characters who we either know nothing about or are mysterious puzzles boxes we don't know much about still. And Chibbers throws another new character into the mix we know nothing about and about whom he is going to slowly drip feed the information for no other reason than to draw it out and drip feed it. She is not stuck in a time line, hell she could have just bookended this story and we'd have the same information about her we have at the end. She doesn't do anything as she travels except avoid bad cgi Daleks (floating Daleks good idea, Dalek cgi so bad when they turn their heads their entire neck turns too- BAD. Dalek necks do not turn only the head dome turns- how did that get in an actual Who episode?!!!)
Meanwhile the Doctor saves said Vinder and Yaz from last weeks cliffhanger by throwing them into the time stream and putting herself onto one of the pedestals along with the Mouri.
In her time stream Yaz remembers some boring stuff from her life being a police officer and playing computer games with her sister, but is stalked throughout by a Weeping Angel. The Doctor occasionally pops up to tell her she is sorting it all out. Eventually the Doctor sorts it out and she gets out the time stream.
There's a horrible bit in this where Chibnal reinforces an unfortunate stereotype tha thas been used to keep females out of male gaming spaces for years- that female players arent 'real gamers' they just do it to get boys to like them. Which is exactly the reason Yaz's sister gives here as to why she wants to learn to play games. Im amazed that got in given how widely an issue this very stupid sterotype has been in the gaming community for decades.
Vinder is reliving the day he got himself sent to the Military equivalent of Siberia for trying to whistle blow his people's leader for shady dealings during diplomatic negotiations. After going ahead with his report he is consigned to a far flung monitoring outpost he has to man alone. Which is where we first met him in his first appearance explaining how he got there. Eventually the Doctor sorts it out and he gets out the time stream.
Dan relives a date he once had, that's about it I think. The Doctor also occasionally appears to him saying she will fix it all. Eventually she fixes it out and he gets out the time stream.
As for the Doctor she finds herself simultaneously trying to keep everyone safe from the deadly effects of the time stream and get them out with the help of the Mouri and reliving a lost memory from when she was the Ruth Doctor working with the Division on her final mission, a mission which it turns out is when she first caught and stopped the bad guys Swarm and Azure she faces again now.
She and Mouri successfully pull the others out to safety but before the Doctor gets all the answers she needs and wants.
All three go back safe to the TARDIS only for a Weeping Angel to get onboard and take control of the ship. Cliffhanger ending.
Now you may read that synopsis and think what's so timey-whimey, puzzling and confusing about that? And of course right there is the problem, it snot, its all very simple and in fact Dan's story is just filler and Yaz is 99% filler with 1% being it has the Weeping Angels turn up in it so they dont just appear out of nowhere at the end.
Vinders story is cliched and straightforward, soldier tries to the do right thing when superior breaks rules, but gets punished for it instead. It could have been told n far less time too.
Bels story, has some information about the state of the universe after the Flux, but again its a cliched story, pregnant women during a time of conflict trying to find the father of her child. Its again a very simple narrative that's neither new, that interesting nor very exciting, and this is true for all of them save the Doctors, which is tied to the overall 6 part storyline (I'll comeback to that later).
The entire problem with what we got out of these thin storylines is that to make them seem less thin Chibnal wrapped them up in a mystery puzzle box writing format. But as you can see there isn't actually a puzzle, not in any story line of any meaningful type. In each case the first puzzle is 'eh what's going on here, why are Dan and Yaz here but not acting like them? And that's meant to be your first puzzle. Then you get the situation, what's going on, why are they here/? And that's your second puzzle.
But neither really are puzzles, they are just stuff waiting to be revealed to explain them. So why do they look like Dan and Yaz, its just their appearance not them, Dan for example is eventually revealed to really be dog alien. But that's not a puzzle.
There are only two reasons for the character switching, on the Doctors line its to disguise dog aliens part in it till we are shown its him, as a sort of reveal, twist, only it was really obvious as he had same weapon as every time we've seen him. And to create an artificial mystery around what's going on.
Same goes for the reveal the Doctor's memory is from when she was the Ruth Doctor. And here we hit a major problem, by trying to create an artificial mystery about what's really going on we only see Ruth Doctor as herself for a few lines of dialogue, and she again outshines Jodie's Doctor in that brief time that it feels an utter waste of her that we are not seeing her as Ruth the entire time, this would have been so much better as a conventional flashback. And the better reveal would have been when she looks at her reflection and sees Jodie's Doctor, then have the conversation they have across Time. But sadly Ruth Doctor is wasted on just another cameo appearance to provide ex positioned information.
Most of the rest of it, Bel's story and Vinders, and Dans, and the bulk of Yaz's is not a mystery or puzzle either- once you've been told early on they are in their own time streams its clear enough what's going on, there's no mystery there. And it's not a puzzle as there's nothing to work out- the Doctor and Mouri are solving it in some mysterious timey-whimey off-screen fashion. So all these stories largely boil down to two characters in a room ex positioning the story at each other. For this episode sees the return of Chibnall's favourite writing technique, exposition heavy dialogue.
So the episode jumps back and forth between all these story lines, revealing bits more of each story each time but in as confusing a way as possible with Yaz, Dan and the Doctor all popping up in each others timelines but as different people, except for the Doctor who is only different people sometimes for some reason but herself others telling the rest, and the audience what's going on.
And because each individual story is actually simple and quite threadbare and we keep cutting to and from each one they feel like an age is passing as you watch for anything exciting to happen. As the mystery is merely one of wait till the end well tell you rather than here's clues to follow as you watch and think about, as so much as just folk standing about and talking there's nothing to give it pace or intrigue or any real engagement or interest in proceedings.
The Doctor's story had elements I enjoyed, but the bulk of it and the rest of the characters I could not have cared less about.
I've saved for last topic the bad guys of the piece and what their plan is, what's going on, what the Flux is. And to be honest I am moving into speculation in this last part based on the main bit of explanatory dialogue expositoned by Swarm. But though I cant see what else it refers to, I could be wrong in my speculation- just to caveat this muddy part of things.
Ive watched the final scenes three times now, and um best I can make it in the past Ruth Doctor and Division captured the bad guys Swarm and Azure- and presumably put them where we saw them originally - one in a prison thing and the other disguised as a human living in the arctic or something? And um the Doctor meets possibly God for all it gives us, an old woman who knows everything that's going on and talks to the Doctor like she's an idiot child (which its 13 and is fair enough really) and then reveals the Flux is all the Doctors fault. Oh and she is another mystery box brand new never seen before character to throw into this mess of characters we know nothing about save they are a mystery to be revealed later.
Then bad guys reveal that the silent third of their group- Passenger is, um, sort of repository where they can put people and store them inside him. I think. Oh did I mention Swarm and Azure seem to be Time? Maybe,I think from the dialogue, or sort of. And Time and Space are now at war with each other and Time will win because anything in material space cannot defeat Time. Um, maybe.
Look here's the actual dialogue from the bad guy explaining it as they stand in the temple thing on the planet Time where the Mouri are on their pedestals and the time stream thingy-
Swarm- A planet called Time. Thinking this could bring the Dark Times to an end. Time is not controllable, Doctor. It will not do as other beings bid. Here we are, still engaged in the Founding Conflict. There is no greater battle than this the battle between Time and Space. And Time shall not lose. Time shall never surrender to Space. No planetary mass, however sophisticated, can imprison the force of Time. This planet, this construction is not just a fallacy, not just futile hubris, it is heresy.
So there you go then. A a general viewer I have no idea what you make of this explanation.
As an old Whovian this sounds like ridiculously lore heavy stuff you have to bring so much to the table to get a grip on.
The Dark Times for example is the name given to the universe before the Time Lords created the Web of Time. The Web of Time is why there are fixed points which have to happen in order to hold the universe in the shape it currently is in terms of its natural laws. The reasons the Time Lords did this is before that the universe was chaotic in a mythical way, to a large degree incomprehensible and the force of magic was a thing like any other natural force in physics and stuff evolved to make use of it. It was a unbelievably violent and bloody time full of monstrosities and horrors capable of devouring entire planets, full of terrible unpredictable chaotic natural forces that meant space and time even changed and shifted. The Web of Time made the universe manageable, stable, controlled, so long as the necessary points in it remained fixed. It brought the Dark Times to an end.
That's a lot to have to bring to bear on just the first two sentences of his dialogue. But bring this knowledge to bear on the rest of it and it appears to say that the Time Lords were about to set the Web of Time in place, the Mouri are what keep it in place,or are Time Lords themselves like those in the Matrix or similar, and Swarm and Azure as embodiment of Time were not going to let the Time Lords control them with the Web of Time so tried to destroy the planet the Web was being created on. The Division sent in the Ruth Doctor and her team and they stopped Swarm and Azure and presumably got the Web up and running.
But if that reading is correct, then its either a lot of lore expecting a viewer to know, or something that's going to need a lot of exposition to explain, and as its Chibnal I suspect that's all we will eventually get.
The show had touched on the mythical Dark Times before, the 4th Doctor era had the Black and White Guardians, who are similar in theme and ST's Q race always remind me of them. In that case though they are used more as a framing device, the actual story is go get thing thats been split into several parts- allowing for a straight forward everyone knows what they are doing scenario and for a different story to be told every few episodes as they go after the next bit, so it still had the familiar format.
Both RTD and Moffat use the Dark Times for stuff but they stripped all the baggage to a minimum, the witch like Carrionites, the Racnoss spider Queen, the Weeping Angels, the Beast devil thing are all from the Dark Times. But it required no previous or in-depth knowledge beyond that fact for the viewer to know what was going on.
For example here's the entirety of the backstory given by the Doctor to explain the Carrionites use of magic-
'I named her. The power of a name. That's old magic....it's just a different sort of science. You lot, you chose mathematics. Given the right string of numbers, the right equation, you can split the atom. Carrionites use words instead....The Carrionites disappeared way back at the dawn of the universe. Nobody was sure if they were real or legend...A new empire on Earth. A world of bones and blood and witchcraft.'
Its all you need to now to follow as its not about the lore. Similarly the whole premise of the Web of Time and how it functions forms the basis of the entire arc of series 6 and the Doctors death in a newly created fixed point. Knowing all about how it functions clarifies a few points, but not knowing it doesn't prevent understanding what's going on or how the Doctor gets out of it.
Similarly the series 4 Pompey episode is about breaking or keeping a Fixed Point, but it doesn't require knowledge of the Web of Time to know what's going on.
In all previous cases the writers were careful to take the viewers with them, not let requiring lore knowledge be a bar to viewers following the plot, and not making the lore the focus of the plot, at most its a framing devious as an excuse for a plot.
What Chibnal is attempting here is to show us that lore head on. He's delved right into it. But he is not in my view taking the audience with him as he is presenting it in such a heavy and ham-fisted manner, making things that should be easy to follow deliberately difficult to.
And the tragedy of all this is as a Who fan there is interesting stuff here- if I read a Who book or heard it as a Big Finish audio about the Dark days and it was the Time Lords trying to create the Web of Time but the force of Time itself was the stumbling block due to its resistance to being constrained in the Web, and that force becomes personified as a deadly physical force eroding the physical universe, and created and used the Weeping Angels as its agents, and the Division were sent in to stop them in a big showdown that finally ends in the establishing of the Web- Id probably enjoy it. But as a book for fans, or a Big Finish story. As the main show, told like this? I just doesn't work so far.
If all this is related to the Dark Times it does however raise immediate questions. Till Chibbers came along the Dark Times were millennia before the Doctors time, before Rassilon even when the Council of Pythria ran Gallifrey, the witch like psychic despotic ruthless all female rulers of Gallifrey ( it did occur me the mystery women introduced at the end who talks down to the Doctor and tells the Doctor she is responsible for the Flux was the Head of the Gallifreyean Council). But if the Doctor was around then as the Ruth Doctor then how could dog alien be there with her? How could she have a police box shaped TARDIS when it didn't get stuck like that until the time of the Hartnell Doctor, billions of years later. If she is between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors how can she be present in the Dark Times- you cant get there by TARDIS as the universe was literally a different shape and form then.
My head hurts now.
If the Flux we saw in episode one turns entire planets into dust, why are the planets we see post flux just ruined cities and still got atmospheres and stuff?
I need more buckie from this.
Why when Jodie was playing Yaz's police partner was really good acting that role, then we became the Doctor again immediately dull and uninteresting again?
And pregnant lasses baby will probably turn out somehow to be the Timeless Child who is the Doctor so Vinder's her Dad as he might be Gallifreyean as he knows what a TARDIS is....
New barrel! New barrel!
There's so much more, but my god that's got to be enough for now. I am beginning to think that 75 AI was generous.
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
Good lord.
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Re: All New Who
{{ You think thats bad, you should try watching it. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
let me get tis straight.....Moffat is a better writer than Agatha Christie? .. mind. blown.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
{ Hah no. Thats not what I meant. I am talking solely about a very partcular type of story telling only, which even Agatha sometimes doesnt quite pull off as its so bloody difficult to get right. As in the Blue Train story. Moffat doesnt always nail it either, but he nails it more often than not. Same with Agatha actually. In fact they share a few things in comoon, such as both of them tendingto try to disconcert the reader by presenting them with a sitautions or characters that seem utterly unconnected or without telling the reader/viewer all thats going on or presenting it in a light that is likely to mislead. Also why when Mofftas Sherlock is good, its very good. He and Agatha structure stories and puzzles fairly similarly. I think in his Dracula the smart, ahead of her time uses her brain and bravery Sister Agatha is named as a nod.}}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
{{ Trying to work out just what is so wrong about how Chibnall is trying to do this. Why its so flat and lifeless a viewing experience.
- Spoiler:
- To tell this sort of story in this fashion each of the separate threads you lay down have to all come together as a whole by the end, but that doesn't just mean getting information drops. It also has to come together thematically, for the characters, for the emotional and the intellectual satisfaction. It all has to join together.
If you take say the 10th Doctor two part story Silence in the Library - the main story is about a father whose love for his dying child plus technology allowed him to preserve his daughters consciousness inside a huge computer that stored every book every written, as she loved reading, so she could exist in any of them. Bad things happen to everyone in the physical library and she 'saves' them, putting herself in distress trying to to the right thing. Eventually she does save everyone with Doctor's help and she gets to continue in a happy existence in her favourite books. Its about loss, sacrifice and hope. About having dreams and losing them and regaining them.
On the Donna line she meets perfect man, gets married has children, loses them all. And in discovering her world is not real she sacrifices the love she thinks she has only dreamt up with man who is actually real and she therefore loses. But finding with the Doctor in their final exchange and saving of River the hope and strength to move on anyway.
In the River line she sacrifices her life for her love of the Doctor who is about to sacrifice himself to save everyone else, and so they can have a future together she has already lived and the Doctor loses her in grief, but that love is given back in the future 12th Doctor's actions in order to help his past self save her consciousness into the library. Loss turned into hope.
Each part not only tells its own story, informs us more about the main characters and their personalities, it also all compliments each other in its themes, it dovetails satisfyingly together.
What Chibnall does though is only give the information. There is no connection thematically between each character, information gained in one doesn't help in another so there's no cross over narratively or conceptually between them.
All this episode boils down to is a series of flashbacks that provide background information to us on characters we've met as if revealing a mystery. Or setting up a new mystery for the future.
But the only reason those backgrounds are a mystery is they have been kept from us in order to make them a mystery. Its all so artificial feeling. There's nothing about what we are told that could not have been told upfront, its not big secret reveals its just...information about them, who they are, why they are in the situations they are in.
So on Vinder's story we get the mystery resolved of how he ended up at the arse end of space, and on Bels story we get that she's his partner pregnant with is child who is searching for him after the Flux.
But nothing in Vinder's story of being punished for trying to do the right moral thing reflects anything in Bel's tale of just crossing space- apart from shooting Cybermen and dodging Daleks all she actually does is tell us slowly over the course that she is pregnant with is child and looking for him. That's all we get about her. They only connect on the most basic, here's information that tells you stuff about them and that they are connected we didn't tell you yet stuff.
Similarly Yaz's story is just there so the Weeping Angels can be introduced to the narrative. It doesn't have another purpose on its own. None of the companions are going to do anything proactive or clever to get themselves or help the Doctor get them out their time streams, it may as well all be vr to them once they know as all they can do is experience it until they either die or get let out. And there's no real implication or sense of peril that they will die or any real threat save an Angel occasionally popping up to go boo and vanishing again in Yaz's line. The threat is some vaguely half-arsed explained intangible concept of Time attacking so there doesn't feel like there is a real threat to anyone. There just sort of having about in unrelated to each other moments from their own time streams waiting to be let out again.
Dan's story is likewise devoid of any real connecting tissue to the overall story here. Its just him being confused until he gets what's going on explained to him, as Chibber's loves his exposition. Its all just such waste of time. Literally in this story.
And none of these stories that don't really connect save as info dumps to each other also don't connect to the overall narrative about the Timeless Child or the fight between Time and Space, or what Swarm is doing. Not more at least than the most basic plot sense of here's some more information about some things and some more mysteries about some new things. It serves a crude functional reason for existing but the deliberately obfuscated way Chibnall has chosen to unravel his tale is needless and detracting. None of it feels coherent as a single story at this midway point. And entirely new concepts, characters and stories are just being introduced, all in the same over hasty unclear fashion as the rest.
None of it gives any real sense of peril, connection to the characters or what's happening to them. The stakes are not clear, what victory means or even vaguely how to achieve it is not clear, the nature of the threat is not clear, the abilities of the villains or even who or what they are is not clear.
There is nothing here for a viewer to be invested in other than waiting for the inevitable finale, no doubt exposition laden, that will make all these points hopefully at least clearer.
But in a story where the mystery of what is Vinder's story is as simple as he did something to piss off superiors got sent there as punishment- something you could have guessed anyway from when we first saw him and his attitude to his posting and superiors- or that Bel's is just his partner looking for him, will the clarity when it finally comes be any more interesting or worth having concealed in the first place? I have very serious doubts about that.
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
For me, it boils down to depth and a sense of mystery, which is as rare as hens teeth to pull off. I will talk about RTD because he is my favourite. He manages to convey an inner depth to the characters, maybe that's superior casting, but its dialogue too, its the music, its the atmosphere, case in point, Badwolf, he builds up a story which grabs you. Its little touches of humour and wit which make you warm to the characters. Its Rose saying 'can you smell chips?' its Donna being so excited to be in ancient Pompeii. I mean, anyone would be in awe to go to these places in history.
RTD's two Doctors were instantly 'The Doctor', no questions asked, and very charismatic. The casting was perfect.
Chibbers got the Doctor wrong, the casting was wrong, the companions are as flat and boring as the dialogue, the story doesn't fizz with excitement, he demonstrated no new ideas, he rehashes other peoples work, its dull, plodding stuff. But worst of all is the fake, preachy, holier than thou shoehorning of real world identity politics which desperately tries to disguise the fundamental lack of originality. After all, its easy to trawl history for examples of colonialism, but it doesn't fit with a sci-fi story unless the whole premise is going back in history to right wrongs, like the TV show Timeless, which does a damn better job at it.
RTD's two Doctors were instantly 'The Doctor', no questions asked, and very charismatic. The casting was perfect.
Chibbers got the Doctor wrong, the casting was wrong, the companions are as flat and boring as the dialogue, the story doesn't fizz with excitement, he demonstrated no new ideas, he rehashes other peoples work, its dull, plodding stuff. But worst of all is the fake, preachy, holier than thou shoehorning of real world identity politics which desperately tries to disguise the fundamental lack of originality. After all, its easy to trawl history for examples of colonialism, but it doesn't fit with a sci-fi story unless the whole premise is going back in history to right wrongs, like the TV show Timeless, which does a damn better job at it.
Mrs Figg- Eel Wrangler from Bree
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Re: All New Who
{{ RTD is less interested and less good at plotting than Moffat but better at characters than Moffat, thats just the bent of the nature of their wrting. But they can both deploy their skills to the same ends at their best.
If you take Midnight as an example for RTD- its a puzzle without a solution, because the solution and the puzzle is not what interests RTD its the reactions of the characters to it.
But he uses his talent in a similar way, just instead of getting separate stories we get individual examples of power in relationships. And to wider society. That is what it comes down too- whether that's Jethro and his parents forcing him to agree with them on throwing the Doctor out, or the Professor bullying his student, or the woman who the alien possessed who was clearly the weaker part in a relationship that went south. Or the hostess who saves them all without anyone ever thinking to ask her name or really even see her. And the alien itself that manipulates folk through an unseen pressure to their worst selves. Its all about different forms of peer pressure and visibility in society.
Point is just like Moffats each strand has resonance thematically with the next to complement and complete the whole.
Chibnall it seems is just not capable of writing at that level. }}
If you take Midnight as an example for RTD- its a puzzle without a solution, because the solution and the puzzle is not what interests RTD its the reactions of the characters to it.
But he uses his talent in a similar way, just instead of getting separate stories we get individual examples of power in relationships. And to wider society. That is what it comes down too- whether that's Jethro and his parents forcing him to agree with them on throwing the Doctor out, or the Professor bullying his student, or the woman who the alien possessed who was clearly the weaker part in a relationship that went south. Or the hostess who saves them all without anyone ever thinking to ask her name or really even see her. And the alien itself that manipulates folk through an unseen pressure to their worst selves. Its all about different forms of peer pressure and visibility in society.
Point is just like Moffats each strand has resonance thematically with the next to complement and complete the whole.
Chibnall it seems is just not capable of writing at that level. }}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
Hmm...sounds like the dream team would be Moffat outlining a script and RDT using it as a guide to write his characters into.
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Re: All New Who
{{ Id say so, theres a lovely interview with Moffat and RTD following them both penning a novelisation of one each of their stories- RTD did Rose and Moffat did his 50th anniversary special Day of the Doctor. One character based, the other high sci-fi plot.
RTD enthuses his envy of Moffats plotting and doing all this huge epic high concept sci fi stuff whereas his is set in a shop. To which Moffat retorts by saying "yes, but your characters" before going on to show his obvious admiration for RTD's writing of character and people.
Its basically a mutual admiration society of two.
Sadly it seems to have vanished from youtube, but their friendship and admiration for each other is clear throughout. So there is hope with RTD taking over and effectively his old Who production team now the new production company making it agian that RTD will persuade Moffat to rerun to at least pen the occasional episode. Personally Im still holding out hope he is secretly cowriting the 60th with Moffat.}}
RTD enthuses his envy of Moffats plotting and doing all this huge epic high concept sci fi stuff whereas his is set in a shop. To which Moffat retorts by saying "yes, but your characters" before going on to show his obvious admiration for RTD's writing of character and people.
Its basically a mutual admiration society of two.
Sadly it seems to have vanished from youtube, but their friendship and admiration for each other is clear throughout. So there is hope with RTD taking over and effectively his old Who production team now the new production company making it agian that RTD will persuade Moffat to rerun to at least pen the occasional episode. Personally Im still holding out hope he is secretly cowriting the 60th with Moffat.}}
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: All New Who
{{ This isnt the interview in question but it is a good example of them just being good mates and Who fans in an interview with Graham Nortonon on his radio show }}
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Re: All New Who
{{ We now have the reaming titles for the last three epiosdes in the Flux story.
Village of the Angels. Survivors of the Flux. The Vanquishers.
I actually have some small hope for next weeks episode. On the trailer it seems more of a bottle episode, and more importantly its the only episode of these six Chibbers has only cowrittern rather than written. And its being co-written with Mxine Alderton, who previously gave us the Haunting of Villa Diodata (the Mary Shelley one). Despite its flaws one thing that was good in that episode was its gothic atmophere and the supporting character and dialogue was a notch up on the usual Chibbers fare of expositionaries. So for a what on the surface looks like classic Who base under seige terrirtroy- small isolated village Weeping Angels attacking, and a period piece, it may be playing to Aldertons talents. }}
Village of the Angels. Survivors of the Flux. The Vanquishers.
I actually have some small hope for next weeks episode. On the trailer it seems more of a bottle episode, and more importantly its the only episode of these six Chibbers has only cowrittern rather than written. And its being co-written with Mxine Alderton, who previously gave us the Haunting of Villa Diodata (the Mary Shelley one). Despite its flaws one thing that was good in that episode was its gothic atmophere and the supporting character and dialogue was a notch up on the usual Chibbers fare of expositionaries. So for a what on the surface looks like classic Who base under seige terrirtroy- small isolated village Weeping Angels attacking, and a period piece, it may be playing to Aldertons talents. }}
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Re: All New Who
{{ Examples of how to do the sort of story Chibbers is failing to.
RTD first and Midnight, (contains full spoilers for Midnight) this first clip sets up the passengers on board a small transit vechicle the Docto is taking on a tour of a planet called Midnight. Note also how the Professor, whose narrative function here is exposition doesn't just do exposition, the manner in which he presents it also tells us a lot about him and what sort of a person he is. Even the small brief interaction with his student, when he asks her to put the next slide on and she does so but apologetically, like she is afraid to have made a mistake, informs on their relationship.
This next two clips are when things have gone wrong, and unknown alien force appears to have possessed a passenger and repeats everything anyone says, slowly starting to speak at the same time as they do- freaking everyone out so its all getting a bit tense.
By this time all the set up the first clip begins in establishing each person or group of people comes to the fore. After first establishing them in normal times we now see them in crisis and afraid, the same dynamics of personality and power but cast by the circumstances to be seen in a whole new light. Jethro's mocking of having heard his Dad's abstract pool story so many times and their rebuking of him for not sitting with them, or they cut him off in conversations seems harmless, even humorous in their commonality to the parent/teen relationship. But that same dynamic in a moment of crisis, where Jethro's views are instantly dismissed or ignored, his voice not heard, pressured into helping (that is the unspoken understanding behind why he chooses not to sit with his parents in normal times) now it's a toxic relationship of pressure and censuring.
It all of course comes together in the finale and its aftermath.
Note the composition of the shot of them all afterwards in the tram. Each original relationship is broken. The father sits alone at the front, the mother on the same side still but as far back form him as its possible to be, Jethro on the opposite side right up against the wall, as far away as he can be. The Professor and his student likewise are at opposite sides. All the relationships are broken. What each has had revealed to them, the exaggaration in crisis of what was always there between them all is now laid bare.
And the missing two are the gay woman who got possessed and who was having issues dealing with her recent breakup. And the hostess, one of only to women of colour, someone who was seen so much as just part of the service that no one even thought to treat her as a human being and ask her name in several hours of travel time.
Its no coincidence that on one level each of these characters represents minorities who are historically not heard or suppressed or condemned or persecuted, or all at once. And its not a coincidence as the themes of relationships, pressures from within relationships and from without in broader society, how such pressures can twist who we are into making us something terrible are played out in every dynamic to show different examples of such pressures throughout the episode.
And then we have the Doctor. Of everyone there he is the one the viewer already knows is utterly dependabe in a crisis. So first RTD strips him of his authority with the other passengers, one of the Doctors main weapons his ability to use words is then literally taken away by having an alien that steals his words and takes his voice from him. And lastly he is rendered immobile and unable to to do anything but witness their attempts to kill him. He plays no part in saving the day, the Hostess saves him. And his own tendency towards arrogance and boastfulness and being upbeat in the face of danger only exasperates matters rather than helps them.
For the Doctor and the viewer its a chance to reflect and to be given a reminder that for all his brilliance and knowledge he is not beyond being left in fear and powerless or having his own seeming strengths turn against him either. The Doctor makes mistakes. One of the problems with Chibnall's Doctor is she doesn't. Well she does, all the bloody time but the show either never acknowledges them as mistakes or worse like the end of Arachnids tries to play it off as Doctor saves the day triumph when she has just done something unnecessairly nasty and cruel. As a result there ar eno consequneces and over time therefore no sense of weight to anything she does. RTD and Moffat's Doctors make mistakes, but they have ramifications, either in plot or for the character and usuaully both.
The fact that the episode ends with the viewer left with no idea as to the answers- what it was, what it wanted, what it was doing, how it worked- with not a single question answered doesn't matter. All the real questions asked about people and society and pressures were set up and answered, and its in the emotional satisfaction that the episode works and the dangling mystery only helps accentuate it; the pressures that shape us in society or families or work are often nebulous, out of our control and being done for reasons or motives we do not understand. So even not answering the mystery works in favour of the overall themes of the episode.
As such it all works as one it all comes together, it all feels right to the viewer and it all fits together.
And as a side bar its also how to use the sci-fi format of Who to explore broad social issues in a way Chibnall's clumsy shoehorning of topics can only dream of.
Chibnal's episode, whilst more timey-whimey does have the different character strands and relationships to work with. He just doesn't. All the stories are separate on every level save plot level. So though the plot elements may come together there is no interest or satisfaction in it because there is no emotional or thematic connection between them. All your left with is the writing equivalent of join the dots, only you don't even get to join them yourself, its just waiting for Chibnal to join them for you. And that's all there is.
Next having demonstrated how compared to RTD Chibbers is an amateur at the character themes, we'll use Mofffat to show how he gets all the time-wimey bit wrong too. }}
RTD first and Midnight, (contains full spoilers for Midnight) this first clip sets up the passengers on board a small transit vechicle the Docto is taking on a tour of a planet called Midnight. Note also how the Professor, whose narrative function here is exposition doesn't just do exposition, the manner in which he presents it also tells us a lot about him and what sort of a person he is. Even the small brief interaction with his student, when he asks her to put the next slide on and she does so but apologetically, like she is afraid to have made a mistake, informs on their relationship.
This next two clips are when things have gone wrong, and unknown alien force appears to have possessed a passenger and repeats everything anyone says, slowly starting to speak at the same time as they do- freaking everyone out so its all getting a bit tense.
By this time all the set up the first clip begins in establishing each person or group of people comes to the fore. After first establishing them in normal times we now see them in crisis and afraid, the same dynamics of personality and power but cast by the circumstances to be seen in a whole new light. Jethro's mocking of having heard his Dad's abstract pool story so many times and their rebuking of him for not sitting with them, or they cut him off in conversations seems harmless, even humorous in their commonality to the parent/teen relationship. But that same dynamic in a moment of crisis, where Jethro's views are instantly dismissed or ignored, his voice not heard, pressured into helping (that is the unspoken understanding behind why he chooses not to sit with his parents in normal times) now it's a toxic relationship of pressure and censuring.
It all of course comes together in the finale and its aftermath.
Note the composition of the shot of them all afterwards in the tram. Each original relationship is broken. The father sits alone at the front, the mother on the same side still but as far back form him as its possible to be, Jethro on the opposite side right up against the wall, as far away as he can be. The Professor and his student likewise are at opposite sides. All the relationships are broken. What each has had revealed to them, the exaggaration in crisis of what was always there between them all is now laid bare.
And the missing two are the gay woman who got possessed and who was having issues dealing with her recent breakup. And the hostess, one of only to women of colour, someone who was seen so much as just part of the service that no one even thought to treat her as a human being and ask her name in several hours of travel time.
Its no coincidence that on one level each of these characters represents minorities who are historically not heard or suppressed or condemned or persecuted, or all at once. And its not a coincidence as the themes of relationships, pressures from within relationships and from without in broader society, how such pressures can twist who we are into making us something terrible are played out in every dynamic to show different examples of such pressures throughout the episode.
And then we have the Doctor. Of everyone there he is the one the viewer already knows is utterly dependabe in a crisis. So first RTD strips him of his authority with the other passengers, one of the Doctors main weapons his ability to use words is then literally taken away by having an alien that steals his words and takes his voice from him. And lastly he is rendered immobile and unable to to do anything but witness their attempts to kill him. He plays no part in saving the day, the Hostess saves him. And his own tendency towards arrogance and boastfulness and being upbeat in the face of danger only exasperates matters rather than helps them.
For the Doctor and the viewer its a chance to reflect and to be given a reminder that for all his brilliance and knowledge he is not beyond being left in fear and powerless or having his own seeming strengths turn against him either. The Doctor makes mistakes. One of the problems with Chibnall's Doctor is she doesn't. Well she does, all the bloody time but the show either never acknowledges them as mistakes or worse like the end of Arachnids tries to play it off as Doctor saves the day triumph when she has just done something unnecessairly nasty and cruel. As a result there ar eno consequneces and over time therefore no sense of weight to anything she does. RTD and Moffat's Doctors make mistakes, but they have ramifications, either in plot or for the character and usuaully both.
The fact that the episode ends with the viewer left with no idea as to the answers- what it was, what it wanted, what it was doing, how it worked- with not a single question answered doesn't matter. All the real questions asked about people and society and pressures were set up and answered, and its in the emotional satisfaction that the episode works and the dangling mystery only helps accentuate it; the pressures that shape us in society or families or work are often nebulous, out of our control and being done for reasons or motives we do not understand. So even not answering the mystery works in favour of the overall themes of the episode.
As such it all works as one it all comes together, it all feels right to the viewer and it all fits together.
And as a side bar its also how to use the sci-fi format of Who to explore broad social issues in a way Chibnall's clumsy shoehorning of topics can only dream of.
Chibnal's episode, whilst more timey-whimey does have the different character strands and relationships to work with. He just doesn't. All the stories are separate on every level save plot level. So though the plot elements may come together there is no interest or satisfaction in it because there is no emotional or thematic connection between them. All your left with is the writing equivalent of join the dots, only you don't even get to join them yourself, its just waiting for Chibnal to join them for you. And that's all there is.
Next having demonstrated how compared to RTD Chibbers is an amateur at the character themes, we'll use Mofffat to show how he gets all the time-wimey bit wrong too. }}
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: All New Who
{{ When your cat (Sisko in this case) becomes addicted to Doctor Who videos }}
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
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