UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

well said Petty. you have summed up 10 years of Tory misery very well. what makes me very angrier still is the people who will still vote Tory like sheep. either out of self interest of sheer stupidity. never ever trust the public with referendums.

{{ Thanks Figg- just very scunnered with Westminister right now and Tories in particualr- though Corbyn isnt far behind in my crabbit and loathing.

And I missed some stuff out- like whilst the Tories were cutting taxes to the wealthy they were introducing cruel unfair taxes that hit the poor and working poor, like the obnoxious Bedroom Tax.

Oddly enough I first heard of that idea two years before it was a real thing, in satirical form in an episode of the Thick Of It, where in a last minute panic for a policy they are brainstorming what are meant to be increasingly ludicrous sounding ideas, like pet passports, and pet asbo's, mandatory plastic bag carrying, and a 'spare room tax'.

Only the Tories could have turned that into a real thing and people who had lived in the same house or flat for years, but it had more rooms than they needed, suddenly found themselves taxed for having empty space, or having guest room!

Fortunately in Scotland if your in social housing you are exempt form this odious tax, not because the law doesn't apply here, it sadly does, but because the Scottish Government sets aside money from Scotlands annual funding allocation to offset it and pay it on behalf of the poor so they dont have to. But that of course takes money from other budgets where its just as needed, all to pay for a unfair tax that unjustly affects the poorest most and every single Scottish MP not a Tory voted against.
Unfortunately it still affects those who rent privately and of course everyone else in in the rest of the UK. }}

yep Corbyn is aiding and abetting, but thankfully that Labour alternative plan bombed. Lets hope that is a wakeup call for him to finally support a 2nd ref. plus I think the labour front bench abstained on the 2nd ref option which meant it didn't pass. the fuckers. and that knob Barry Gardiner said that "labour isn't a remain party" well oh yes it is according to the members. why did he say such rubbish?

{{I dont see Corbyn ever being enthusiastic about it Figg. He is not an EU fan, he barely campaigned for Remain during the referendum and almost never outside London (his Londoncentricness is one of his major problems). And that is now two clear opportunities they have had to vote for a 2nd referendum, where their votes have been the difference between winning and losing it, and they abstained both times. Labour are clearly not interested in delivering another referendum Figg. I'm afraid its just not going to happen.

Regards Labour being not a remain party- he is right, according to their last manifesto they stood on a platform of honouring the Leave decision in the referendum.
The problem for Labour lies in that at Conference their grass roots voted to support a 2nd referendum- but that is not the official policy of the Labour Party at the top. Which is why Corbyn has instead been touting his 'alternative plan' all this time to Brexit or a general election. But were there to be a general election I see no indications that Labour would change its manifesto position from supporting the Leave result to another referendum.

In a sense it comes back to the London problem- London is a remain city and the heart of modern Labour policy thinking, but in the middle-lands and especially in the north of England in the old industrial Labour heartlands,they are losing their supporters and many of those constituencies voted Leave- Corbyn needs them to vote Labour still to have any hope of winning a general election, all the more so these days when Labour can count on very little from Scotland, a former heartland they lost. Once burnt twice shy and all that. The EU question has shown up the divisions within Labour support, and the party itself and the MP's of the party, just as clearly as it has the Tory side.


In Brexit developments. Mays plan is back from the dead and back for another vote on Friday- sort of. Its the same thing but made more stupid!

So what may has done now is to split the withdrawal deal in half.

The first bit on the withdrawal bill, what we pay on the way out the door, the backstop, citizens rights, the preamble basically.

The second bit is the entire other half of her deal, the 'future relationship with EU' bit. That May is wanting to kick down the line- so on Friday they just vote on the first half - get MP's to agree to the withdrawal and all its terms separately.

This is being dupped a 'blind-Brexit' we agree to leave on May's deal but no idea or agreement as to what follows.

As it stands I dont see it working. Or really what she hopes it changes for that matter- the tricky bit, the backstop is still there and still unchanged.If she had somehow found a way to kick that bit of the bill down the road a bit I could at least see the point as a survival cling onto power strategy- but with the backstop still in place I see nothing changing overall.

She has the majority of the eurosceptics onside now, Mogg, Boris and the ERG as they screwed up their tactics royally and have left themselves with little other choice but to accept her deal or get nothing, but Labour are still not officially on board at least and many of their number will vote against I suspect even were Corbyn to be dumb enough to whip a vote for May. The SNP wont give her a single vote and nor will the Lib-Dems or the Welsh Nationals.
So once again everyone is waiting on the DUP and their handful of MP's, and to see if they can be swayed to her bill- if they finally crumble (no signs they will so far) then May might get it passed with Labour help. Without the DUP and without Labour help and likely a few still on the Tory benches who will rebel I dont see it passing. Much closer than before, but still not passing the House. }}}

{{ So the vote on Mays half a deal is today and the debate is underway.

So far as predicted a slew of Tory brexiteer backbenchers saying variations of "I dont like it, I'm doing it through gritted teeth, its better than no deal, but I'm voting for it this time."

And we have had a few Labour MP's come out also saying they too will vote for the bill- which will all be music to May's ears.
Want wont be is that the DUP are still adamantly sticking to their position saying, the backstop will cause "irreversible damage" and "will be lasting on our precious union forever".

Now yesterday Mogg was saying he would back Mays deal- but then he also said that he would pay attention to the DUP as they were the 'guarantees of our union and he would never do anything they thought jeopardised that union'- well Mogg, make your mind up time!

Oh and Boris is already said to have got his machine underway for his running for leadership once May's gone- PM Boris! Is that better or worse than PM Gove? }}}}

most of them are cowardly, but if any Labour MP votes for May's deal they should be told to resign asap. we can expect the usual twats like Mann, Hodge and that other harridan Hoey to vote with the Tories, but the others would do so because they are afraid of losing their seats. so its career and party over country yet again. As for the brexiteers like IDS well those gross and hypocritical reptiles don't warrant a comment.

{{ The ERG group- which up till now has not backed May's deal and said it would take its cue from the DUP as they valued the Union above all else- has announced it will no longer take its cue from the DUP after-all and will in fact be advising its members to vote for Mays deal and stuff the Union it seems. So much for the Conservative and Unionist Party more like Conservative and Brexit At Any Cost party now.

The DUP are remaining steadfast however so far in their refusal to vote for any deal including the backstop in it, which this does. If they shift then the odds shift dramatically with them of May's deal getting the backing it needs, but if they hold out it has a much better of failing than succeeding.

Sadly I will probably miss the vote today as I have to go to bed , on nights at the moment and I'm not nearly drunk enough yet but I will leave keeping folk abreast of things in your more than capable hands Figg.}}

{{ Nearly drunk enough to sleep! But before I do this stuff was too good not to share.

being reported by BBC-

'Just seen Cabinet minister pointing finger in face of arch-brexiteer, in Commons corridor - 'you're not going to get no deal on the 12th, back it today or this place going to stop it - THAT'S YOUR CHOICE' he shouts - they both walk off shaking their heads'

And here is Labour MP Jim Fitzpatrick, whose constituency voted 67.3% in favour of remaining in the EU, representing his constituents-

"I don't want a no-deal. I've voted against it twice but this is a different proposition. I've been saying for some time if it's a choice between her deal or no deal, then I'd take her deal."

Yup, voting for it.
Obviously this is not going down great in his constituency as he understates here-

"I'm getting a lot of traffic from both the constituency and the party."

and his justification for this?

"I'm explaining that my job is to make decisions by exercising my judgement on what I think is the best for the country, then the constituency, then my party."

Apparently despite his own constituents wanting to remain in the EU, his parties conference position being there should be a second referendum he believes voting for May's deal is in the best interests of the country. But he voted to remain as did his voters, so really he thinks remain is in the best interests of the country so how is voting for a deal you think is not as good as remaining (he voted against it every other time) now good for the country?

Unfortunately there seems a lot of Labour MP's coming forward with these sort of mental gymnastics right now to explain why they are voting for the deal. }}}

{{{{{ }}}}}}

If this were baseball, the rule would be "Three strikes! you're OUT!!!"
I wonder if that rule might apply to Prime Ministers? ....

if only

{{ Well May lost again, the margins was narrower but still way off what she needs 286 for versus 344 against.
May got a few rebels back on line- Labour didn't crumble as badly as expected with 5 MP's voting with the government, and on the Tory ranks there were 24 rebels who voted against the government.

So three attempts to pass it and lots of jiggery-pokery to try to get it passed and she has still failed. So time for her to realise her plan is not going to pass? Not a chance!

'A No 10 source indicated that the prime minister would continue to seek support in the Commons for her deal.
Clearly it was not the result we wanted. But, that said, we have had a number of senior Conservative colleagues who have felt able to vote with the government today. They have done so in higher numbers than previously. Clearly there is more work to do. We are at least going in the right direction."

Going in the right direction?!! So what just keep bringing it back over and over and hoping the numbers eventually creep up over the line? }}

this is barking mad. surely Bercow will tell her that she cant bring back the same deal? they tried some jiggery pokery to do MV3, but the gig is up.
On a side note some facebook loons called 'Britain Bites Back' tried to run a poll trying to discredit the Revoke Article 50 petition, it didn't go well. Everyone voted remain and the desperate plonkers deleted the poll and tried to do another one. Everyone voted remain.

What's that white thing behind the parliament building?

{{ They do that when they are building or refurbishing something, put those massive coverings round the entire building- not sure which building is hidden under all that maybe Lance would know.


Not sure whose politicking in all this has been worse, there are a few contenders like Mogg and the ERG group, Boris and his shenanigans and leadership dreams, May and her defiance of all sense and logic or Corbyn.

With May, whilst her continued pushing of the same deal over and over when it clearly not got the votes, I can at least see how she was stuck between two immovable position- the hard Brexit mob and Remainers in her own party.

But Corbyn has been playing for a general election and nothing else all along. His 'custom union' plan was always a non-starter, as obviously doomed to fail as Mays plan if not more so as it was even less of a Leave than hers. It was just a position to hold until he could manufacture a general election. Labour provisionally accepted the position of a peoples referendum, but when it came twice to the vote and chance to have one they failed to vote for it both times betraying Corbyn's true position, and now today with May's plan failing again Corbyn is once more calling for a general election to solve the crisis.

Except it won't. Labour is just as messed up as the Tories on Europe, they have no credible plan either and their own supporters are an impossible gulf to bridge between hard remain in London and surrounds and in Scotland, and Leave constituencies in the north of England and Midlands. They can't satisfy both sets of Labour voter.

All another election would do is cause more chaos for a few months only to put us back in the same situation.
And of course Corbyn is assuming he is a shoe-in to win, and I don't think the polling backs that up not to mention the splits in his own support.
We are just likely to end up with a hung Parliament with no overall control, or worse another Tory government led by the hard right of the party.

But however it goes now Corbyn's tactics all along have been entirely selfish ones to gain power by forcing a general election. I honestly don't think it mattered what position May adopted Corbyn was simply going to oppose and oppose and force a crisis and demand an election. The interests of the nation, either way don't seem to factor at all. That he whipped his party against voting for another referendum twice is proof of this.

So overall I think I despise Corbyn more than May over all this, his position is entirely about him and entirely self serving and has no other purpose. May might be stubborn and immovable but I think she probably believes her deal is is the best she can do in a situation where there are no roads leading to a good outcome, just a less bad one. Corbyn is standing for nothing but himself.}}

Corbyn is shifty. He's like an underdog that has under the counter ideas none of which are strictly legal. This whole unbelievable episode stinks like the drains outside my flat. At least its one thing the British can be proud of, we certainly go down in History in a big way. It almost feels like Britain had a nervous breakdown since the 1st world war & never recovered. Unhinged ever since. I should think every member state must be shaking their heads & laughing, eager to view the next mornings papers for the next Guffaw.

Wow! I'm beginning to see why the "007 solution" would start to look tempting after a while....
Hopefully you Brits get some kind of clarity soon, though I can't even imagine what that would look like at this point ...

1. best case scenario. general election, Labour government, second referendum, remain.
2. worst case scenario, general election, Tory government, hard right brexiteer PM, leave with hard brexit.
3. probable scenario, hard right brexiteer PM, no GE, Mays deal.

love this

Hopefully you Brits get some kind of clarity soon- Dave

{{Doesn't seem much chance of that.

Today the Commons is back looking for a consensus Brexit to rally round- the whole thing seems a farce to me given Labour are only interested in another General Election, or are they?
There are hints things are not happy at the top of Labour. Labour Deputy leader Tom Watson did the tv interview rounds yesterday talking up the Peoples Vote option and when asked if there was to be a general election would the people vote be Labours mainfesto position, to which Watson replied he personally considered it 'inconceivable' that it would not be.
This is the second time Watson has sounded more like the representative of the party than Corbyn, the last time was over the anti-Semitism row where he criticized his own leader for not doing enough.

In chaos elsewhere the Justice Secretary has come out saying it would be a mistake for May to ignore the 'softer Brexit' will of the Commons, even though he says he still backs May's plan. Though is arguments for supporting it are not exactly encouraging-
"Sometimes you do have to accept your second or third choice to avoid an outcome you consider to be even worse."
Whilst at the same time he reiterated that he would resign immediately in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
And whilst he is doing that May's still there, just about, Chief Whip is at it again too, satin gin a documentary that after May lost her majority at the last election she should have made it clear that they were going to have to adopt a softer Brexit as they no longer had a majority to drive May's version through the House.
He has also had a very public go at the cabinet, describing Cabinet Ministers as- sitting around the cabinet table... trying to destabilise her [Mrs May]" and described their behaviour as the "worst example of ill-discipline in cabinet in British political history".

And in the midst of all this May is still tlaking about bring her deal back for a fourth attempt, this despite the fact the DUP Brexit spokesperson said today they would not vote for it even if May brings it back a thousand times. So that seems pretty emphatic then!

So what now? Well the show will go in Parliament of them trying totally round a consensus, for which there isn't one so they almost certainly won't find it. Corbyn is now so clearly playing for nothing else but an election, so that remains a possibility, but I cant see Tory's voting to give him one just because he so obviously wants one! (under the fixed terms act Parliament neds to vote with a 3/4 majority to have an early election).
If Parliament does put forward a version of Brexit where we remain in the customs union (the idea for which there is most consensus) it has the problem that it is clearly not what people who voted leave voted for, it was very clear at the time a leave vote was a vote to leave the customs union. I dont believe can be in the customs union and cherry pick not having free movement of people as well as goods- stopping people moving about was one of the things leave people seemed very keen on doing. So that wont fly. And it is very likely to split the Tory party in two as well if May were to adopt such a plan, with the ERG, about half the cabinet and many others likely to resign furthering the chaos.

And working away silently behind the scenes are Boris, Mogg and co on one side and your Clarkes and the like on the other all preparing to further their own ends in the inevitable Tory Leadership contest when it comes.

Meanwhile the SNP strategy domestically is to build towards a further independence referendum following Brexit by highlighting along the way how much Westminster is ignoring the Scottish people and their majority vote to stay. The SNP position is for Article 50 to be revoked and a second Brexit referendum held.
What's giving them good material right now however and they are making use of is the entire Brexit proves hinging on 8 DUP MP's. With the SNP pointing out that 8 right wing Irishmen and women have more influence and more say than the entire voting population of Scotland and highlighting this, as they see it, deficiency in democracy, and that the only possible solution to Scotland having political decisions it doesn't want enforced from those outside of it, either Westminster or the DUP is to be our own nation and make our own choices.

And I think that sums up where the major players are at this moment in time. Basically if there is a national interest angle to any of this its heavily buried under political game playing, manoeuvring and self- interests.  }}}

{{Good vid from CHannel4 news highlighting Corbyns position and thoughts on the EU up to this point.



Only in British politics could you find yourself in the position where the person in-charge of taking the UK out of the EU thinks its a bad idea, and the person trying to stop her doing it thinks taking us out is a good idea!!! Starting to think Lewis Carroll wrote the script for all this, its upside down and back to front!! }}

I think they should keep doing a vote on the options and removing the lowest voted one each time... like XFactor but with the future of the country at stake.

Last option standing wins.